ARR Press Reviews

[Spider-Dan]

I'm not sure that "unique" is the right word for the class system. Convoluted is more accurate.

It would certainly be a lot less convoluted if you were forced to stick with the class/attendant job(s) that you picked at character creation.

It is disingenuous to have an evaluation or review of XIV where you criticize it for "not being unique enough" without acknowledging that:

1) XIV is one of a very small number of AAA MMOs that let you play different classes on one character (the most prominent example being its predecessor)
2) XIV is the first viable post-WoW console MMO

Both of these things grant a significant amount of uniqueness to the game. The reviews that fail to acknowledge them read as one would expect them to read if this game was PC-only and class-locked.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Pretty sure the "convoluted" was referring specifically to how classes are garbage and jobs are the only thing that matters, not so much the "all classes 1 char".

[Kuishen]

Pretty sure the "convoluted" was referring specifically to how classes are garbage and jobs are the only thing that matters, not so much the "all classes 1 char".

.

[Kincard]

1) XIV is one of a very small number of AAA MMOs that let you play different classes on one character (the most prominent example being its predecessor)
2) XIV is the first viable post-WoW console MMO

I don't think there's a single review out there that's not going to point out something as obvious as the fact that you can change classes at any time in XIV, but I just don't see how that's somehow some kind of revolutionary feature that propels the game into greatness. The only difference it really makes in the long run is that I won't have to log out and log back in over and over anytime I want to play something different (also makes the lack of quests more quickly apparent).

Actually in moving on from FF4.0 the game actually became less flexible than FFXI. In FFXI you had the choice of subbing any other job into your current job. Granted you wouldn't usually do it, but the option was there. Here you get a handful of abilities from two other classes for your job. Them discarding the flexibility of the original armory system (Where you could sub just about any ability or trait into other classes and had total control over your stats) and not dropping the weird class-job system they had from the original game has resulted in something where the classes arn't much different than the single classes you get with any other MMO other than in a very superfluous way (I equip a gem to make my job strongerer now). I suppose you can think of jobs as being the equivalent of talent trees from other MMOs with the difference that you get a cool storyline to go with each one, and much, much more annoying to respec if you wanted to do that.

Point 2, DCUO.

[Spider-Dan]

Pretty sure the "convoluted" was referring specifically to how classes are garbage and jobs are the only thing that matters, not so much the "all classes 1 char".

Well, again, if you were locked to your class from jump then jobs would (more) obviously be just specs.

But to the main point, if your primary takeaway from the class vs. job system is that classes are mostly redundant instead of one character can change to any/every class or job, I'd say your perspective is skewed. And I think most of the positive reviews are focusing on the latter rather than the former.

I don't think there's a single review out there that's not going to point out something as obvious as the fact that you can change classes at any time in XIV, but I just don't see how that's somehow some kind of revolutionary feature that propels the game into greatness.

That's a pretty cynical viewpoint; one that I would suspect comes from an XI player.

To everyone else, being able to change classes is legitimately a BFD. And the game's reviews should (and mostly do) reflect that.

The only difference it really makes in the long run is that I won't have to log out and log back in over and over anytime I want to play something different (also makes the lack of quests more quickly apparent).

Again, you neatly gloss over one of the other primary unique features of XIV: being able to pick and choose from individual cross-class abilities, something that I don't think is in any other major MMO. Final Fantasy players simply take this for granted.

Actually in moving on from FF4.0 the game actually became less flexible than FFXI. In FFXI you had the choice of subbing any other job into your current job. Granted you wouldn't usually do it, but the option was there. Here you get a handful of abilities from two other classes for your job. Them discarding the flexibility of the original armory system (Where you could sub just about any ability or trait into other classes and had total control over your stats) and not dropping the weird class-job system they had from the original game has resulted in something where the classes arn't much different than the single classes you get with any other MMO other than in a very superfluous way (I equip a gem to make my job strongerer now).

In XI, you can sub any other ONE job. In XIV you can use abilities from multiple different classes at the same time. Even at its most restrictive (jobs), you can use abilities from two other "subclasses" simultaneously.

Comparing ARR's armory system to retail 1.0's is silly; the game is not competing against the failed version of itself. Ultimately, it seems like the people complaining about the supposed "lack of MMO innovation" are all XI players (not surprising for this forum), which is not really a position that a mainstream reviewer would be coming from.

Point 2, DCUO.

DCUO gets its doors blown off and is not a serious comparison.

Average PS3 ARR score (via Metacritic): 81 (12 positive, 2 mixed, 0 negative)
Average PS3 DCUO score (via Metacritic): 67 (15 positive, 26 mixed, 5 negative)

For purposes of comparison, PS2 XI had a Metacritic score of 85; 47 positive, 2 mixed, 0 negative. DCUO was not good.

Obviously, time will be the ultimate arbiter, but DCUO went F2P less than 10 months after release.

[Damane]

I don't think there's a single review out there that's not going to point out something as obvious as the fact that you can change classes at any time in XIV, but I just don't see how that's somehow some kind of revolutionary feature that propels the game into greatness. The only difference it really makes in the long run is that I won't have to log out and log back in over and over anytime I want to play something different (also makes the lack of quests more quickly apparent).

Actually in moving on from FF4.0 the game actually became less flexible than FFXI. In FFXI you had the choice of subbing any other job into your current job. Granted you wouldn't usually do it, but the option was there. Here you get a handful of abilities from two other classes for your job. Them discarding the flexibility of the original armory system (Where you could sub just about any ability or trait into other classes and had total control over your stats) and not dropping the weird class-job system they had from the original game has resulted in something where the classes arn't much different than the single classes you get with any other MMO other than in a very superfluous way (I equip a gem to make my job strongerer now). I suppose you can think of jobs as being the equivalent of talent trees from other MMOs with the difference that you get a cool storyline to go with each one, and much, much more annoying to respec if you wanted to do that.

Point 2, DCUO.

this is the gripe I currently have with the class/job system, to me it feels like an immense downgrade from the FFXI SJ system. They can leave the class/job system as it is, but for gods sake lift the restriction to so many abilitys spells so you can go full customizeable on your job/class and add the ability to also cross-class traits. The only restriction should be the amount of cross class ability/traits you can equip (like as it is for example 5 now) and the job specific abilitys.

[Kincard]

Well, again, if you were locked to your class from jump then jobs would (more) obviously be just specs.

But to the main point, if your primary takeaway from the class vs. job system is that classes are mostly redundant instead of one character can change to any/every class or job, I'd say your perspective is skewed. And I think most of the positive reviews are focusing on the latter rather than the former.

Why are reviewers supposed to act amazed at the class change system in FFXIV when it's actually less sophisticated than the one in its predecessor? The thing is when the ARR team decided to transform XIV into another WoW-like game the class change system has for the most part just become an artifact of what used to be there, because if you recall the original Armoury system the idea was for me to take skills for all these different classes, spread my stats out the way I wanted, and basically create my own style of play. That idea is all but gone and the only thing the cross class skills make you do now is force you to level a second class so you can access all your cross class abilities.

Basically what I'm saying is that what the class change system was supposed to offer in terms of character customization has become just another way to make the player grind more with barely any of the customization to be gained.

Again, you neatly gloss over one of the other primary unique features of XIV: being able to pick and choose from individual cross-class abilities, something that I don't think is in any other major MMO. Final Fantasy players simply take this for granted.

The idea that there is choice in ARR is largely illusionary; While you are correct that at any given point I can only sub a single class into another single class in FFXI, I can do it with any I want. The class/job system was clearly designed to narrow down the amount of choices the player has to the point where you had almost no choices at all. It's no more flexible than the talent trees offered by WoW; In fact, it's probably less choices if we're talking about pre-Cata talent trees. Post-Cata talent trees are probably equal at worst. Consider I have 5 slots for a job and maybe a dozen different abilities to choose from if I max both my sub-classes.

I guess you can argue about classes having more flexibility but who the heck actually plays their class after level 30?

Simply put take look at the WoW talent trees even in their current form, you pick 6 abilities out of 18 in a pretty locked-in fashion. Compared in XIV, where you have 2 sub-classes that will contribute maybe something like 10 skills which you get to pick 5 of. The most notable difference is that in WoW I am picking 1 abilities out of sets of 3 whereas in XIV I am given more free reign over what the set as a whole will look like. The way its presented is different but when it comes to what I can actually choose there's not much different, and this was completely intentional so they could balance the game the way they wanted easier.

this is the gripe I currently have with the class/job system, to me it feels like an immense downgrade from the FFXI SJ system. They can leave the class/job system as it is, but for gods sake lift the restriction to so many abilitys spells so you can go full customizeable on your job/class and add the ability to also cross-class traits. The only restriction should be the amount of cross class ability/traits you can equip (like as it is for example 5 now) and the job specific abilitys.

They're not going to do that, because the way the game has been designed now is very deliberate. By removing as many options for the player as possible, it makes it easier for a dev team to balance the game around the holy trinity and having the few classes/jobs that are there synergize well with each other.

This is why I say the game is good at what it does. They've balanced the relatively stiff system they have very well, it's just that they had to remove as many variables as possible in order to achieve that. Give a player a lot of options and the game's balance will be thrown all out of whack, its just that the player won't notice it as much because they'll be busy trying to solve the problems presented by a game by thinking of their own unique strategies. See: FF5, X-2, Tactics, and most relevant- XI, lol.

DCUO gets its doors blown off and is not a serious comparison.

I'm not interested in arguing with you whether DCUO was better than XIV or not, I was simply responding to the assertion that there have been no other console MMOs since WoW came out; it's objectively incorrect.

[Spider-Dan]

Why are reviewers supposed to act amazed at the class change system in FFXIV when it's actually less sophisticated than the one in its predecessor?

Are you talking about 1.0, or XI? XIV's system is certainly more sophisticated than XI.

And yes, reviewers should act like class change is A Big Deal as long as the only major MMOs on the market that have it start with "Final Fantasy".

The thing is when the ARR team decided to transform XIV into another WoW-like game the class change system has for the most part just become an artifact of what used to be there, because if you recall the original Armoury system the idea was for me to take skills for all these different classes, spread my stats out the way I wanted, and basically create my own style of play. That idea is all but gone and the only thing the cross class skills make you do now is force you to level a second class so you can access all your cross class abilities.

I don't want to get too far into 1.0 analysis, but this doesn't sound like you played it. In retail 1.0, the real "customization" you did was leveling many classes to the 40s to get the top-tier version of each ability, then load up the same cookie-cutter build as everyone else. This was one of the major endgame complaints about that game ("lack of class identity"), so it would be silly to dock points from ARR for fixing what the playerbase wanted them to fix.

If you're going to evaluate the game fairly, it's silly to penalize ARR for not letting you use anything from every other class when other games allow you to use nothing from any other class.

[Kincard]

I guess I didn't get my point across very well. Ask yourself, what does the class change system do that's not just a cosmetic difference from a talent tree system in a different MMO?

Imagine for a second that instead of making you switch classes and grinding them up to access new abilities, that these abilities would simply be available for you to select out of a list as you hit the specified levels of those abilities. You can even keep the class/job system if you want and make the list automatically thin into the job list if you were so inclined.

What changes?

1. I'd have to make a new character if I want to play a different class
2. I wouldn't have to spend hours grinding a secondary and tertiary class that I might not have wanted to grind if I was only planning on playing one class

I'm still on a class that has a base set of abilities and I choose my choice out of a variable list of abilities. In other words, it's no different than a talent tree system from any other MMO.

This is why I'm saying the armory system's (or specifically, the cross-class abilities) flexibility is largely superficial.

[Spider-Dan]

I guess I didn't get my point across very well. Ask yourself, what does the class change system do that's not just a cosmetic difference from a talent tree system in a different MMO?

Well, that depends. If you think that being able to spec as a healer Monk is the same thing as being able to change class to a healer Cleric, then sure, I guess there's no difference between class change and respec?

You can only come to the conclusion that respec is equivalent to class change if you also come to the conclusion that being able to spec as a tank is equivalent to being able to play as every tank class. Which is rather silly, since (in any well-designed game) no two classes will perform the same role in the same manner.

Class change is a big deal, and reviews should reflect that. The fact that ACN is (currently) the only class that can "spec" as DPS or healer does not make everything but PLD & WAR obsolete.

[Elcura]

At this point, I want to see what they do with secondary jobs on existing classes before saying the armoury system isn't living up to its potential. Considering the things we seen on various jobs, along with how ACN works I think it's possible to change the way the class operates solely with job skills.

[ronin sparthos]

Why, yes; yes, it does. For pretty much exactly the same reason that you refuse to concede that Goldeneye deserved a 7 (based strictly on what innovations it brought to the FPS genre).

While being on a console is a selling point to purchase the game, the availability of a game speaks little to the actual substance being reviewed. You know, the actual game.

Ooh, let me try:

Goldeneye is a game following in the wake of a beaten to death Doom-clone saga coming to the market nearly 5 years after Doom defined the multiplayer deathmatch, race to powerups, frag-and-respawn type of play. The only saving grace is that this game has a James Bond movie tie-in and that might be all it needs.

If N64 had a decent game library this game would be thrown into the wastebin alongside every other generic FPS because this game breaks no new ground.

Creative, but ultimately a distortion.

Goldeneye wasn't competing in a market where dozens of first-person shooters were all being released following the same formulaic pattern of copy/paste Doom. At that point in time shooters were largely limited to PCs in an era where PC gaming wasn't as popular as a console. Goldeneye was successful because it combined bringing a good FPS to a console in addition to bringing attention to the genre at whole. Most people had not seen Doom-style (at the time) gameplay the way we've all seen WoW clones before. Games based on movies usually suck as well, further making Goldeneye worth praise and notoriety.

XIV competes with dozens of games that have tried the WoW model before. The WoW model has become the most cookie-cutter shit you could churn out. While being available on a console is an asset, ultimately the game is block by block 'more of the same' this time with Moogles and Chocobos.

-Sell the game on the brand.
-Use console monopoly to prop up subs.
-Appeal to the lowest common denominator.
-Take every creative decision WoW brought to the genre and duplicate.

And that might work. Or it might not. My argument was solely that you don't give games that buck the status quo scores approaching a 10.

[Hyan]

I'm not sure that "unique" is the right word for the class system. Convoluted is more accurate.

lol this always reminds me of those tv shop commercials where everything looks so much more difficult than it really is.

http://shell.dx.fi/~teepo/tv-shop/1358151291214.gif

so hard to unerstaend

[Kincard]

Well, that depends. If you think that being able to spec as a healer Monk is the same thing as being able to change class to a healer Cleric, then sure, I guess there's no difference between class change and respec?

You can only come to the conclusion that respec is equivalent to class change if you also come to the conclusion that being able to spec as a tank is equivalent to being able to play as every tank class. Which is rather silly, since (in any well-designed game) no two classes will perform the same role in the same manner.

Well see again, the fact that I can do everything on a single character is still ultimately a superficial difference. In another MMO, i'd log out of my cleric and then log into my monk, etc.

In XIV, I just swap my weapon. Admittedly it's very convenient, but it doesn't offer a unique sort of customization you'd imagine with a class change system and a cross-skill system.

I don't want to seem like I'm praising 1.0 at all because I think it's one of the worst games I've experienced in years, I'm simply saying that at least the idea of customization was more in play there (I never got to high levels, if it was poorly balanced like you say that's a balance issue and not a design philosophy issue which is what I'm more describing here). EX, in theory i could play pugilist, set cure, dump all my points into MND and roleplay a healer fisticuffs guy if that's what I wanted to do.

The only other MMO I can think of that allowed stuff like that was UO, and I was excited for another game like that. Unfortunately the incompetence behind that game led them to hear one complaint more than any other- "why is x feature from y MMO missing"? Yoshi has gone on record for being a big MMO fan, and he has guided XIV on a path to be more like the rigid structures of other modern MMOs with a heavy emphasis on balancing the combat and focusing each class.

obviously you cant say that one model is objectively better than the other, it's just that I don't think anyone can argue what is another holy trinity theme park MMO can't really be called "innovative" for a class change system that's ultimately cosmetic. There might be a point to be found if any other MMO restricted you from playing more than one character like XIV does, but the only other MMO that really does that is XI.

If there is one thing the game has truly done uniquely, it's the crafting system. It's just that like many other things from 1.0, it's been changed to be unimportant enough that a player can go through the game without ever touching it and be just fine.

[Nyanoko]

I'd put money on Yoshi being pressured from above to make the safest game design decisions possible. Let's hope the income they're generating off this relaunch will result in more leeway and interesting content down the line.

[Kincard]

I'd put money on Yoshi being pressured from above to make the safest game design decisions possible.

Oh yeah, no doubt.

[Spider-Dan]

Well see again, the fact that I can do everything on a single character is still ultimately a superficial difference.

If you don't see the impact of having all of your items, money, quest progress, transportation options, and area access on one character, then I don't know what to tell you.

The idea of doing main scenario over and over (to GC join, at a bare minimum) for each new class I want to play strikes me as something more than superficial.

While being on a console is a selling point to purchase the game, the availability of a game speaks little to the actual substance being reviewed. You know, the actual game.

Even you can't deny that Goldeneye (the actual game) was nothing special compared to already existing FPSes. It was certainly far less unique or innovative than ARR is. So if we're going to review games based solely on the substance of the game, Goldeneye is a 7.

Goldeneye wasn't competing in a market where dozens of first-person shooters were all being released following the same formulaic pattern of copy/paste Doom.

You think there was a lack of FPS in... 1997? Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, Heretic, Hexen, Rise of the Triad? And those are just some of the successful ones; that's before getting into the mountains of nonsense shovelware like CyClones or The Fortress of Dr. Radiaki.

There were FAR more Doom clones back then than there are WoW clones today, and it's not even close. You can go through this YouTube series to get an idea of how absolutely saturated the market was by Goldeneye's release (at the end of '97).

At that point in time shooters were largely limited to PCs in an era where PC gaming wasn't as popular as a console.

At this point in time, MMOs are largely limited to PCs in an era where PC gaming STILL isn't as popular as console, so I don't see your point.

Goldeneye was successful because it combined bringing a good FPS to a console in addition to bringing attention to the genre at whole. Most people had not seen Doom-style (at the time) gameplay the way we've all seen WoW clones before.

I'm going to guess that you weren't gaming on PC back then, because if anything, you've got it backwards. PC WoW clones are not at all common compared to the absolute deluge of PC FPSes in the mid-late '90s.

If anything, everything I've said has been generous to Goldeneye. Strictly in the PC context, ARR is a solid MMO with some significant, unique bonuses, and can compete with other PC MMOs straight up. In contrast, Goldeneye was trashy by PC FPS standards on release; QuakeWorld had already been out for nearly a year, so the idea of playing a multiplayer FPS without using the internet was already pretty much stone age.

So in summary, ARR is a solid (but not necessarily genre-changing) PC MMO and an untouchably godlike console MMO. The review ratings should reflect that, and generally have.

[Meresgi]

If you don't see the impact of having all of your items, money, quest progress, transportation options, and area access on one character, then I don't know what to tell you.

This is without a doubt the single best thing for the game in my eyes. I hated having to log out and log into different characters on WoW to play other roles. Along with that, I like how I could lvl my WAR to 50, and then use my gear from my WAR to level my PLD to 50 as well before turning it into materia. I can obtain rare/unique items like Odin/Behemoth items and use them on w/e class/job I want instead of having to do them ALL THE FUCK OVER AGAIN.

[Kincard]

If you don't see the impact of having all of your items, money, quest progress, transportation options, and area access on one character, then I don't know what to tell you.

The idea of doing main scenario over and over (to GC join, at a bare minimum) for each new class I want to play strikes me as something more than superficial.

I concede that you're right in that there's an advantage to playing a single character where I don't have to repeat the same quests and travel/flag the storyline with each character. In theory, the advantage of doing this allows me to enjoy more breadth of content when I want to play different classes. (Though WoW has enough areas/quests that you could probably play two characters with completely different quest paths so you'd get a very different experience at least once, and the only other MMOs I can think of that makes the main storyline so key to your character's progression is XI and I guess GW2, so this advantage you are listing only exists because of another thing that barely exists in other MMOs)

Of course, I don't think anybody is going to argue that that's what actually happened. They put enough content to fill up one class to 50 and you'll get a couple quests you missed on your second class which will probably get you like 10-15 level's worth of stuff? All the rest of the time will be spent FATE grinding (Or possibly running dungeons if you have a group to do it with because DF randoms are the scum of mankind). Does anyone here actually enjoy leveling their secondary and tertiary classes? At least they were smart enough to add in that +50% xp bonus and the hunting log. Nobody's actually exploring more of the game because of playing a second class though (There IS nothing else to explore after you've gotten your first 50, the main storyline makes you do stuff in basically every area in the game) , they are bored enough that they will look for quick fixes like squatting in Dark Devices and spamming AoE until they hit level 50.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't really want to get into a discussion of what the best method of leveling should be; suffice it to say that players will figure out what's most efficient and spam that.

In (most of) XI, it was exp camps.
In early 1.0, it was guildleves.
In later 1.0, it was exp camps again.
In ARR, dungeons are better than exp camps and guildleves, but no one cares because FATEs are better than all of those.

The determination of the best mechanism for leveling up your character is totally independent of the option to change classes. The ability to have all your game progression on the same character is a HUGE advantage over competing MMOs. You can't just ignore that when rating it.