Titan Fight

[Niiro]

I've received a couple PMs and there's enough posts asking for it that I'll go write it up now and post when it's ready. If you want the tl;dr, don't have to worry about randoms/carries version, Niiro has provided it above.

I will say SCH is a lot more complicated for that fight.

But speaking as someone who chose to do SCH relic over WHM, I hate SCH for that fight.

(or any AoE intensive fight, fucking WHM with fucking 7280 potency DS + medica II for 450 mp)

(also the piss weak healing of succor along with the shit range -_-)

[TacoTaru]

That's interesting, because I actually found it to be less intense on SCH I just had to time certain spells differently than I would have for WHM. Different strokes I guess.

[Seravi Edalborez]

I will say SCH is a lot more complicated for that fight.

I kind of feel the opposite for probably the wrong reasons: Succor only does so much so I don't feel like I personally fucked up if things go south for whatever reason.

Granted I've not done the fight on WHM (or played WHM much in general) because I'm a bad with MP management and Aetherflow is my crutch.

[Rocl]

Aetherflow is a drug I can't live without.

Nor can my party.

[Jem]

Way too much effort for something that already doesn't require paying attention.

It's one of those things that helps more on your first time through when you're more likely to be undergeared. I needed food to break 5k HP when I did it and I think if I hadn't been flashing MB, I'd have been a hell of lot more likely to have died.

Of course the obvious answer is to suck less and not be undergeared but flashing MB was preferential to farming full DL before doing Titan for me.

[Niiro]

That's interesting, because I actually found it to be less intense on SCH I just had to time certain spells differently than I would have for WHM. Different strokes I guess.

I kind of feel the opposite for probably the wrong reasons: Succor only does so much so I don't feel like I personally fucked up if things go south for whatever reason.

I guess complicated wasn't the right word, I just sort of feel.....frustrated I guess?

When stomps come all you can do is spam Succor which won't hit everyone unless they're pretty clustered (15y radius compared to Medica's fkin 25) and after jumps/fury likewise all you can do is Succor, repeated castings are just a waste because unlike stomps it's just a one-time hit and any repeat casts are just piss weak, extremely expensive 150 potency heals (since the damage shield isn't doing anything for you) with a crap range that people are immediately running out of to get ready for plumes.

[Pepinot]

Medica is also 15 yards. Medica II is 20.

[Niiro]

Thought it was larger, Succor is still terrible.

[Elcura]

Succor is awesome, you just can't use it like medica. Because it's not medica. It's succor.

[Sylvrdragon]

I kind of feel the opposite for probably the wrong reasons: Succor only does so much so I don't feel like I personally fucked up if things go south for whatever reason.

Granted I've not done the fight on WHM (or played WHM much in general) because I'm a bad with MP management and Aetherflow is my crutch.

MP is only an issue on WHM if you spam Medica1/2 or Regen constantly. People say that Regen is very MP efficient, but that's only true when the ticks are actually put to use. I see a lot of WHMs using Regen as their "top off" spell when they should really be using Cure1. First off, Cure1 is only 133 MP (which your native in-combat MP regeneration practically cancels out), and it procs "Freecure" which you turn around and use on targets that are actually low. Second, it's cast time is the same as your GCD, which means that it isn't actually any slower than Regen, even though Regen is "instant" (the only use to not having a cast time on Regen is that you can throw it out while moving).

When you DO have to use several Medicas or even Regens, then you need to be riding your Shroud of Saints cooldown, which mostly makes up for the Medicas required for Titan, assuming your DPS aren't eating bombs and plumes constantly. The healing load on Titan for a WHM is only overbearing if people suck at dodging, which is the REAL problem that you need to address, rather than your MP management. This is why highly experienced companies can get away with taking 1 healer to Titan- because nobody gets hit with any avoidable damage (you can google "Titan solo heal" and come up with a bunch of videos demonstrating this).

[Niiro]

Succor is awesome, you just can't use it like medica. Because it's not medica. It's succor.

Indeed, but it's also SCH's only AoE cure, and in that capacity it is lacking (if manually controlling fairies was a bit less obnoxious it wouldn't be as much of a problem).

A good group can do Titan with a solo WHM healer, while I wouldn't say doing it with a solo SCH is impossible I certainly would not want to be the one to try it out.

Keep in mind tho I do like SCH (as I mentioned before I opted to do SCH relic over WHM) but I recognize the job's weaknesses, it's still very much the secondary healer in most all situations that matter. It's not in the same boat as WAR, WHM+SCH is better than WHM+WHM, but you only want a SCH if you already have a WHM and if you're only going to have 1 healer you're going to want a WHM.

[Seravi Edalborez]

I've been informed on lolgamefaqs that Landslide is physical. So lazy/slow/etc BLMs, Manawall at your own risk. Been told it will null the knockback and damage.

[Elcura]

Indeed, but it's also SCH's only AoE cure, and in that capacity it is lacking (if manually controlling fairies was a bit less obnoxious it wouldn't be as much of a problem).

A good group can do Titan with a solo WHM healer, while I wouldn't say doing it with a solo SCH is impossible I certainly would not want to be the one to try it out.

Keep in mind tho I do like SCH (as I mentioned before I opted to do SCH relic over WHM) but I recognize the job's weaknesses, it's still very much the secondary healer in most all situations that matter. It's not in the same boat as WAR, WHM+SCH is better than WHM+WHM, but you only want a SCH if you already have a WHM and if you're only going to have 1 healer you're going to want a WHM.

Fairy control would help, but the long cooldowns for the abilities means for the most part I'm not relying on it. I'd rather have gambit like commands for pets, at least that way I could specify heal the tank only, or heal only when lower than 50% and shit. Would be cool.

While I think SCH has a harder time aoe healing than WHM, I definitely think it's safer for them to heal overall. Medica 2 generates a shitload of hate, so in any situation you really need to heal all the party you run the risk of dying from hate. SCH doesn't have that problem as much when it comes to pulling hate and the fairies hate can be easily reset by resummoning it. Their MP regen means they can be a lot more aggressive with their actions too and I hardly ever worry about my MP unless I'm solo healing a bunch of retards.

While it feels like SCH is a secondary healer, I don't believe that is the case. In most situations you're going to have 2 healers anyway and the fairy should not be underestimated for its diligence. As for solo healing, perfectly fine for Titan on SCH as it is for WHM. SCH needs the same conditions as WHM to solo heal which means no retards and ballad occasionally, you definitely have to rely on the shields and manual fairy too for regen and healing potency. I don't think WHM is a better solo heal, I think it's easier to solo heal perhaps. Not sure how many situations currently call for only 1 healer but in those situations SCH can definitely hold their own. SCH shields are also lovely to have for Coil.

[Ratatapa]

I've been informed on lolgamefaqs that Landslide is physical. So lazy/slow/etc BLMs, Manawall at your own risk. Been told it will null the knockback and damage.

Just tried and it works on DF

[Quicklet]

Medica 2 generates a shitload of hate, so in any situation you really need to heal all the party you run the risk of dying from hate.

I see people say this a lot, but I haven't really run into a situation where this is actually an issue besides CM which doesn't really count.

[Niiro]

Fairy control would help, but the long cooldowns for the abilities means for the most part I'm not relying on it. I'd rather have gambit like commands for pets, at least that way I could specify heal the tank only, or heal only when lower than 50% and shit. Would be cool.

While I think SCH has a harder time aoe healing than WHM, I definitely think it's safer for them to heal overall. Medica 2 generates a shitload of hate, so in any situation you really need to heal all the party you run the risk of dying from hate. SCH doesn't have that problem as much when it comes to pulling hate and the fairies hate can be easily reset by resummoning it. Their MP regen means they can be a lot more aggressive with their actions too and I hardly ever worry about my MP unless I'm solo healing a bunch of retards.

While it feels like SCH is a secondary healer, I don't believe that is the case. In most situations you're going to have 2 healers anyway and the fairy should not be underestimated for its diligence. As for solo healing, perfectly fine for Titan on SCH as it is for WHM. SCH needs the same conditions as WHM to solo heal which means no retards and ballad occasionally, you definitely have to rely on the shields and manual fairy too for regen and healing potency. I don't think WHM is a better solo heal, I think it's easier to solo heal perhaps. Not sure how many situations currently call for only 1 healer but in those situations SCH can definitely hold their own. SCH shields are also lovely to have for Coil.

Given the general ease of holding hate with the ridiculous enmity modifiers on tank skills it's only ever really an issue in situations where adds pop mid-combat as a cure is being dropped, and even then Provoke solves this problem handily.

When looking at SCH in the case of something like Titan, how do you handle jumps and phase 3 stomps? Without the fairy's AoE regen (which is potent, but retarded manual controls make it unwieldy at best) you're stuck spamming Succor for 150 potency heals that might not hit everyone as they spread out to avoid plumes. You can't afford to toss out individual physicks because you've got a tank to worry about (esp for incoming busters) so you have to pretty much rely on the fairy and everyone avoiding everything to get everyone topped off before the next tumult.

When tumult does come Succor actually shines a bit more because the damage comes in multiple waves, meaning you get the full effect of the shield, but even then late in the fight the damage is truly massive and there's just a lot less room for error.

But aside from the solo heal situation, I would still consider WHM far more essential than SCH in any 2 healer situation. While you ideally want 1 of each WHM is simply the much simpler and safer healer, when the shit hits the fan in any given fight (especially in terms of AoEs) WHM can blow DS+Presence+Shroud and throw out (essentially) a super fast super potent party wide full cure, SCH can.....Succor and hope for the best, Lustrate the tank, and hope the fairy isn't being retarded. There isn't always time for a slow and steady recovery and that's all SCH can manage.

MP management is an important skill to learn on WHM but as long as you can manage that (and there's pretty much always a BV+Ballad waiting in the wings) there's no situation a WHM can't handle. SCH may be more efficient for general use, but they don't have the oshit emergency recovery options available to WHM and those are the ones that save runs.

[Elcura]

Even with relic (and especially in coil) WHMs can steal hate if they're careless. Also, Provoke works on 1 add (2, since you generally have 2 tanks in that situation), so if there are more than 2 adds prepare to get fucked (you'd need something better than just provoke for aoe happy WHM with hate on multiple adds, in some cases leads to death before the tank can react). Most WHMs also love to run around like idiots which makes getting hate even harder. Overall, WHM has to manage hate and MP far better than SCH ever needs to. I rarely ever think about either on SCH.

For Titan and stomps, you can either throw out a Sacred Soil (which is awesome as people tend to go inside of it rather than not) or use fairy mdef/regen/healing buff (never have 2 up at the same time) and spam Succor. Alternating Virus, Eye for Eye and fairy buffs (as well as Rouse, never sleep on Rouse) all help in making stomps manage-able. SCH isn't as obvious a healer as WHM, as is just as much a debuffer too. Tumult with Succor up only hits for 350-400 or so, rather than 700 each time. The math always seems to work out and as long as I have ballad I can spam Succor even with 8+ stomps and have no one die. Titan also tends to take a second or 2 after about 3 stomps, giving you more time to SPAM. Really, for SCH stomps aren't the difficult part. It's stringing the whole thing together with healing the tank and Lustrate, as well as Aetherflow charges and fairy management (which I wouldn't manually do unless solo healing).

Also, if your party is spreading out for plumes before stomps even finish they're retarded. Doesn't matter what healer you have then lol.

I don't think WHM is more essentially. It's just as essential. I wouldn't want 2 WHMs as much as I wouldn't want 2 SCH (but if I have to be really honest, I'd be more comfortable with double WHM), because together they truly are a better combination. WHM is the healer everyone knows, SCH is still looked at with a bit of doubt and caution, but from what I've seen and done it's every bit as useful as WHM and certainly just as powerful. I agree that WHM is better suited for shit hitting the fan than SCH is, but they also have the hate thing to worry about and it's not like a SCH can't deal with shit hitting the fan either. They just can't go full retard with the cures which usually leads to the healer dying anyway.

Essentially, the way I see it is SCH is a better single target healer and WHM is a better aoe healer. I think they're equal in most cases and which is better is really down to how you play and how your party does stuff. And I wish this was the case with tanks; definitely better together than apart.

[Niiro]

People never seem to run into Soil when I use it -_- (except pre-jump but I guess they're conditioned to gather for cures afterwards anyway).

SCH does have a lot of potential but the gist of it is it takes a lot more coordination and effort (with the group and the stupid fairy) to get full use out of it.

I'd be a lot more comfortable if 1) they made pet commands macro-able and 2) made fairy controls not-retarded (having to constantly and immediately re-Steady the fairy every time you want a skill used is ridiculous, cumbersome, and time consuming which completely defeats the purpose of having an autonomous pet, also more buttons I can't fit on my xbar).

[Seravi Edalborez]

Just tried and it works on DF

I guess I'd definitely save this for heart then just in case Landslide gets pointed your way. One less thing to dodge in that phase probably helps.

[Elcura]

People never seem to run into Soil when I use it -_- (except pre-jump but I guess they're conditioned to gather for cures afterwards anyway).

SCH does have a lot of potential but the gist of it is it takes a lot more coordination and effort (with the group and the stupid fairy) to get full use out of it.

I'd be a lot more comfortable if 1) they made pet commands macro-able and 2) made fairy controls not-retarded (having to constantly and immediately re-Steady the fairy every time you want a skill used is ridiculous, cumbersome, and time consuming which completely defeats the purpose of having an autonomous pet, also more buttons I can't fit on my xbar).

I agree, SCH requires more planning and effort to play than WHM which is a lot easier to control. Have you tried using obey? I find that it's a lot easier to control fairy actions (except for regen, idk why) with that rather than Steady. Though if I want control over regen I can't really do that. It would be a lot easier to control with macros if you could do that (just attach steady before an action) but so far it's very cumbersome.