The VIT/STR debate for Paladin

[Kanriel]

I strongly understand the VIT argument, but I think I'm going to go full STR until I find that I am dying because of my own lack of survival ability. If I am able to survive, then the VIT is doing little to nothing. So the argument that the extra DPS/mitigation from STR doing little or nothing is rather moot. At least until more numbers come out to show some extra effect to VIT, maybe if there were more damage-based VIT components (like say if Spirits Within does decently more damage with higher max HP, more abilities based on VIT, etc.)

[gaogaostegosaurus]

Imho, if you're using "I need more enmity generation" as a reason to pick strength over vitality, you might want to consider respeccing all your points into mind, intelligence, and piety and quit tanking

[Niiro]

Yea, if you're having trouble keeping hate on either class a lack of STR is not your problem.

[alt]

Imho, if you're using "I need more enmity generation" as a reason to pick strength over vitality, you might want to consider respeccing all your points into mind, intelligence, and piety and quit tanking

Yea, if you're having trouble keeping hate on either class a lack of STR is not your problem.

This. Since it seems to be established that the mitigation gains from STR are worthless, the only other reason to pick it would be dps...

If you are worrying about dps as a paladin, yeah, just quit tanking and pick a damage dealer and save everyone the trouble.

[Churchill]

All I'm getting out of this is that none of you tank against DD's who actually do high DPS, lol.

[reccaa]

I'm not having issues keeping hate, ever; but as Kanriel pointed out, if I'm surviving well enough, then VIT is doing little to nothing... having more STR will
contribute positively to my gameplay as a whole (not just parry, or damage or hate, but also survivability).

Please notice that the argument is for WAR, not PLD; PLD being a "passive" damage negating class as opposed to WAR, VIT makes more sense.

Having said that, if you examine ALL WAR/MRD abilities, they are more or less damage-driven!
So by boosting your damage as WAR, you are effectively boosting your performance as a whole, as well as your survivability.

1- Hate formula is DMG-based.
2- Bloodpath, Inner Beast and Storm's Path are DMG-based HP-absorption abilities.
3- Maim, Berserk, Unchained, and Vengeance are all abilities with DMG modifier (either increasing or inflecting).
= 7 abilities.

What are the abilities that are HP related?
Thrill of Battle & Mercy Stroke.
= 2 abilities. Both are heavily situations (MS being at the end of a fight, ToB is on 120Sec recast so not utterly useful but nice to have when things get bad).

So come again? STR is useless, really? All VIT...really??

I can understand people who'd like to argue putting VIT on WAR tanks, I do it myself! but to say STR is useless or should put VIT all, while MOST abilities on WAR Are dmg-driven + AF gear contains STR as well as VIT + job description & design clearly states WAR has to dominate the frontline with their damage as tanks (opposed to PLD)...

So..really, without any serious data to backup your claims, "logic" is only thing you can use in an argument and VIT stands no chance in this argument as it is illogical.

P.S. please use your brain and think for a second on the difference between WAR & PLD as tanks: WAR takes active role on survivability = HP absorption + some defense, while PLD plays a passive role with the shit load of damage-negating abilities. This is why VIT makes sense on PLD, but not much so on WAR.

Again, if you check AF, you'll see the 3 top stats are: STR, VIT, Parry, with some accuracy/skill speed/determination thrown there.
I believe SE knows better what stats needed for jobs THEY designed.

[alt]

This thread is about Paladins...

[Churchill]

All I'm getting out of this is that none of you tank against DD's who actually do high DPS, lol.

This thread is about Paladins...

As is my quote.

[alt]

I was referring to reccaa's post thanks.

edit*

All I'm getting out of this is that none of you tank against DD's who actually do high DPS, lol.

Replying to your post, I dont understand. What does DD's who do high dps have to do with STR on PLD?

[Niiro]

I believe SE knows better what stats needed for jobs THEY designed.

Spoiler: show

Yes, I realize they've come a long way with 2.0 but this comment is still pretty golden.

[Kanriel]

Imho, if you're using "I need more enmity generation" as a reason to pick strength over vitality, you might want to consider respeccing all your points into mind, intelligence, and piety and quit tanking

This is a similar argument as I've heard in WoW Paladin debates stemming from someone not actually listening to the other side. Enmity is not NECESSARILY the reason. But EXTRA DAMAGE can be. If 30 STR gives me 1 more DPS, do you know what that means? It means my DPS need 1 less DPS to meet any DPS checks (which I've heard is already in the game readily). Coupled with NUMEROUS reports here of Paladin having such impressive mitigation and survival that they're the vastly superior single target tank leading me to believe with acceptable gear survival is not an issue and therefore more DPS is always the best thing to achieve to do better in an endgame scenario.

[reccaa]

My bad, I got overexcited Don't blame me please the game is down now so it is boring ;o;

Being on topic then....On PLD, I'd go 4 VIT to 1 STR ratio.
You'd still need STR for damage and for hate.

STR for block or parry is...just plain stupid and been shown statistically. Why would anyone argue otherwise?

I second what Kanriel says, as WAR I have pulled hate easily from any PLD who are even better specced than me, with an established fight over 1-2 minutes.
Mind you, WITHOUT using provoke.

I say PLD need a little bit on the ENM department and if you dump everything on VIT, well guess what is gona happen?

[Seravi Edalborez]

I believe SE knows better what stats needed for jobs THEY designed.

Two words.
XI Ninja.

(elaboration for those not in the know: Ninja basically turned into another tank class as players figured it out. It wasn't intended to be one afaik)

[gaogaostegosaurus]

All I'm getting out of this is that none of you tank against DD's who actually do high DPS, lol.

This is likely true because I have to nub it up with duty finder, and I don't doubt that it's me that's doing the nubbing sometimes, but I was figuring that dps doesn't scale like three times faster with i70-90 gear. Even then, I don't think a 5 percent change in enmity generation (which is likely fairly generous?) is going to break a raid more often than a few hundred hp.

[reccaa]

Two words.
XI Ninja.

(elaboration for those not in the know: Ninja basically turned into another tank class as players figured it out. It wasn't intended to be one afaik)

I totally agree and they wouldn't have guessed Avesta would solo all what he did xD

But you'd have to admit that they have done a much better job defining classes/jobs/roles in 14 ^^

[Churchill]

I was referring to reccaa's post thanks.

edit*



Replying to your post, I dont understand. What does DD's who do high dps have to do with STR on PLD?

...you would have a higher threat generation from two different avenues.

[alt]

...you would have a higher threat generation from two different avenues.

So your argument is that you should go all STR to increase Paladin's damage to hold hate better?

[reccaa]

So your argument is that you should go all STR to increase Paladin's damage to hold hate better?

How else would you increase enmity?

[Churchill]

So your argument is that you should go all STR to increase Paladin's damage to hold hate better?

No, I am simply saying that if no one here sees a value in any Strength or that Strength offers no visible or tangible benefit, then the DD's you play with are shit. That line gets very narrow when people frontload damage and you need to be able to tank through that because telling a DD class to slow down is just like saying "I can't tank, fuck me where is a dildo".

[CrstyCptSteveWitherspoon]

Vit > str. Only use str where you can't put vit, until such a time where you're sitting well about 5k hp I'd guess.

Duno how people struggle keeping hate. The enmity from rage of halone combo is ridiculous. Also for fights where you're worried about dps stealing hate: I could only see this being an issue in the beginning where the pld is just starting to build hate in which case your 1337 dps need to back off and not steal hate(oh look, hate meter! Wow!). There's ALWAYS a phase during fights where your party is running around avoiding something while the pld sits there and spams rage of halone combos. By the time dps get back on the mob there's really no way that they're going to pull hate. This is like 99% of fights in the game right now(excluding coil as I haven't done that yet, but still from what I've seen it still applies, and demon wall because there's no real hate table).