The VIT/STR debate for Paladin

[Sylvrdragon]

PLD was the safer tank in 1.0, the game simply lacked any need for this extra survivability.

Same thing happened to PLD in FFXI during the Abyssea Era. You simply didn't have any need for that amount of survivability. There's no benefit to over-killing your ability to survive. You get just enough to pass, and then load up on all the offense that you can pack into your allotted spaces. Doing it any other way just makes it too easy and/or too slow. The only way developers can even keep tanks relevant is to make stuff hit like a wrecking ball, and make DPS build glass-cannon so they don't have any choice but to have a someone else taking the punishment.

[Spider-Dan]

Fuck yeah there's something wrong with it. I'd rather this not turn into WoW's patch cycle where every new update brings with it nerfs to 90% of the classes and super buffs to the other 10%, resulting in everyone rerolling over and over again and never knowing how to play the class they have picked.

This.
Isn't.
WoW.

If you think PLD would work better than your WAR, guess what? You can level PLD and ding 50 into full Darklight, because [i]it's all on the same character.[/u] You aren't "rerolling"... particularly since you already have levels in GLA (for WAR cross-class abilities) in the first place.

That's not to say that perfect balance isn't desirable... but as long as each job isn't the-same-but-worse as another job, it's fine to let each job have its time in the spotlight. I'm not saying that job change menu is not a substitute for balance, but if you play this game on exactly one class then you should expect some drawbacks.

[Kiarax]

This game does everything in it's power to push you in to one class, stop trying to reiterate this retarded point. You're literally better in almost every way to make a fresh character over swapping class. I had every DL piece I wanted for MNK the second I hit 50 on it, now I have absolutely no form of progression on it. Can't use myth on it or my main is gimped, can't even run coil on it because lock outs exist. I would have to give up working on my other class entirely, drop my coil group to find one that needs a DD over a tank, screwing over 7 friends who need me to tank and myself since finding 7 other competent people to run 1-4 with is aids. You're right though, this isn't WoW. Which is why it's so fucking baffling they copy pasted systems from it that just don't work in FFXIV.

[Carth]

You're literally better in almost every way to make a fresh character over swapping class.

Pretty much. You would have to regain your cross-class skills and redo the storyline, but that takes little time in comparison. Getting Darklight gear is nothing. Having to waiting a week for the Mythology cap and Coil reset is the issue.

[Inferno]

Just dump all your points into VIT because it will help in the long run. The amount of hp that you will gain will out way the dmg.

[gaogaostegosaurus]

Pretty much. You would have to regain your cross-class skills and redo the storyline, but that takes little time in comparison. Getting Darklight gear is nothing. Having to waiting a week for the Mythology cap and Coil reset is the issue.

Dunno if I've got a serious case of Doing It Wrong, but I don't think getting all cross class skills and Darklight is a trivial investment of time, even if it's nothing in comparison as you said.

But I suppose that if you don't have Philosophy coming out of your ears it's not like your current priority is Mythology tomestones anyway, whether or not you play a bunch of classes.

[Rionel]

The amount of rage in here is a little staggering.

While Mythology/Allagan gear is the end all at the moment and a sizeable jump from Darklight, Darklight really isn't even that horrible to begin with. People have done Coil with AK/Darklight geared people and NQ relic weapons are still the 2nd best weapon you can possibly use in the game for any class.

I would like to think being in full DL + NQ Relic Weapon hardly makes you "gimp", or at least, gimp enough to the point of being "unusable". There will also be new hard mode dungeons such Crystal Tower which is going to give us equipment that falls between the Mythology/Allagan and Darklight standard, making the differences in optimal gearing even smaller once they're obtained.

Also, I find it a bit hard to believe that class swapping is somehow being considered as a bad thing too. Like... really? I know you really want to gear everything you level as the best and pimping, but frankly I'm almost kind of glad there's a restriction in that sense. If everyone could honestly just easily gear up in full mythology/allagan for every LV50 they have within a short time frame, that seems almost... kind of lame? I do enjoy that my investment into one class makes it noticeably more "valuable" than a random that blitzes to my class to 50. It's a choice you just gotta make I guess.

But as I said earlier, I really don't think it's as big a deal as you seem to making it be.

I mean, if you wanna make a totally new character and bypass all that and whatever, sure. It just seems kind of like a not really fun way of trying to optimizing your classes, having to always start a new character from scratch again. Now that would get old pretty quick to me.

And even more so, all of this is probably going to be moot anyway, as there are going to be level cap increases / new dungeons / new systems / etc etc / in the future. You guys are really sweating this stuff way too much I think; we haven't even gotten our first major patch yet for crying out loud!

Just enjoy the ride and chillax.

[Seravi Edalborez]

The big deal, from how I see it, is that if you picked a job early on that ended up relatively sucking (WAR, DRG I guess) to blow your myth on and want to "change your mind", grats that's a week+ behind on whatever you replace it with.

[Carth]

Dunno if I've got a serious case of Doing It Wrong, but I don't think getting all cross class skills and Darklight is a trivial investment of time, even if it's nothing in comparison as you said.

The issue isn't time investment, but with everything being capped, which brick-walls your progression and forces you to do something else or stay off the game for a week.

For reference, I started the game with two characters, and planned on having two characters even before the game launched. So this revelation doesn't bother me at all.

[Lucavi]

The big deal, from how I see it, is that if you picked a job early on that ended up relatively sucking (WAR, DRG I guess) to blow your myth on and want to "change your mind", grats that's a week+ behind on whatever you replace it with.

This, pretty much. If SE could balance anything even remotely within the sphere of decency, this wouldn't be a big issue. Its XI's drg all over again. You "can" take certain classes to end-game events, but why screw yourself over more than SE's lag already does? Pick the safe Jobs, stack the safe Jobs and go about your day. Don't spend all your myth tomes on a job that is going to wind up being used only for Primal farming and Behemoth/Odin FATEs.

SE knows how the MMO player's mindset is - how the HUMAN mindset is: if X is even 1% better than Y, people are going to stack X. Its why you still see sac runs taking precendence over normal clears, even if you only save 3 minutes in the end. Its why Wars really shouldn't be tanking anything that isn't Garuda or a 50 dungeon. Its why Mnks and Drgs aren't bunched the fuck up like Brds are.

SE knows all of this from, what, 11 years of XI? Yet they balance the classes poorly and, on top of that, have the gall to tell the player-base who ROUTINELY makes a habit of breaking their shit to the point of embarrassment, that "oh, you're just doing it wrong," like anyone has any reason to trust what SE says in any way, shape, or form?

Get the fuck outta here.

[Spider-Dan]

You're literally better in almost every way to make a fresh character over swapping class. I had every DL piece I wanted for MNK the second I hit 50 on it, now I have absolutely no form of progression on it. Can't use myth on it or my main is gimped, can't even run coil on it because lock outs exist.

So if I understand you correctly, the reason why it's better to create an entirely new character instead of changing classes from a class you do not believe has the potential to compete is... that you'll be gimping your "doomed" class?

If your group composition is such that switching to a full DL MNK will "screw over your friends," how does creating a new character fix this?

The big deal, from how I see it, is that if you picked a job early on that ended up relatively sucking (WAR, DRG I guess) to blow your myth on and want to "change your mind", grats that's a week+ behind on whatever you replace it with.

If you rerolled, then you are [your total amount of time spent getting every cross-class gear or skill + all storyline quests] plus a week+ behind. How many weeks will it take for you to catch up on myth (or allagan) accessories alone?

[Kiarax]

So if I understand you correctly, the reason why it's better to create an entirely new character instead of changing classes from a class you do not believe has the potential to compete is... that you'll be gimping your "doomed" class?

It's nothing to do with "competing", the fuck? Even if we did follow that train of logic you said yourself you were fine with heavily shifting balance, so suddenly your PLD is a shitty choice over WAR and you're still down the myth from any AF2 or relic+1 you grabbed. For me though? I just like playing every role. I'm working on SCH now so I'll have a tank, DPS and healer to roll as depending on my mood.

If your group composition is such that switching to a full DL MNK will "screw over your friends," how does creating a new character fix this?

Uh, because I wouldn't be fucking locked out of doing coil on my WAR? I run and tank as usual with my friends. Then I wanna progress my MNK, so I swap to that and can run coil again (with another group or them on alts) because it's not locked out. I can also grab Spharai +1 and any desired AF2/Hero pieces because I have another 300 myth per week to dedicate to MNK.

These lockouts and token caps completely condescend the entire point of the armoury system, you're literally penalized for playing multiple jobs on one character. The cons far outweigh the pros right now and that desperately needs to change.

[Grey Jorildyn]

You're not "penalized", poor choice of words. Rather you're restricted into choosing how to spend your tokens and, as human nature dictates and was pointed out similarly above, you're gonna focus on a single job.

As it is knowing rotations and priorities well is a bigger boost to your damage and advancement as a player. Once you hit that skill ceiling though gear then becomes the only way to raise the damage ceiling.

[Kiarax]

Sorry, I should say penalized over playing on multiple characters vs multiple classes on one character.

[Sylvrdragon]

Sorry, I should say penalized over playing on multiple characters vs multiple classes on one character.

You aren't penalized. You're merely slowed down. It's only an issue if you feel the need (which you apparently do) to get to max gear as soon as possible. You don't HAVE to do the latest thing to come out the second it hits the servers. You don't HAVE to be capped on gear the second it's humanly possible to BE capped. What's the fucking hurry? Are you trying to "beat" an MMO? This game is meant to be played for YEARS. You have some time.

Besides, endgame content is likely going to get broader at a faster rate than it becomes deeper, which means that, if you're a little bit patient, then you'll be able to get similarly tiered gear from multiple sources as time goes on while still progressing into harder content. Myth tomes and Allagan drops are the bottle neck for now because this is vanilla.

Furthermore, everything you have is likely to become obsolete the second they raise the level cap- which I suspect isn't going to take 10 years to happen this time around. Once that happens, and level 51 pinks are better than your level 50 raid gear, then all of your jobs are going to be shit, and you'll get a chance to choose a new favorite.

Even if everything I've said above is completely full of shit and untrue, then just talk to your group about switching classes, and you can probably work something out for them to find something else to do for a while so you don't get "left behind". If they can't understand you actually trying to have "fun" with a "game", then they're assholes anyway.

In any case, man the fuck up, do what you want to do, and don't look back. If you're not getting what you want out of the game, then the problem is with you, not with the game.

[Argantes]

I think some people forget that right now, relic/allegan gear is pretty much best in slot.
Giving you access to do mroe than a weekly cap will make the instance on next release pretty much obsolete cause everyone will do it once to check it out and never go in again cause they outgear it and then bitch about not having content and they outgear everything.

I get what you all arfe saying, but I also know that if there wasn't a weekly cap, what I just mentioned would happen.

What they could do is make the weekly cap class based. Atleast that way, people can still gear everything.

[Spider-Dan]

It's nothing to do with "competing", the fuck?

"PLD is better than WAR therefore waaah"

Sounds like a competition issue to me.

Even if we did follow that train of logic you said yourself you were fine with heavily shifting balance, so suddenly your PLD is a shitty choice over WAR and you're still down the myth from any AF2 or relic+1 you grabbed.

And you're still up the myth from every accessory you bought, and you're still up the philos from basically everything, and you're still up from any primal weapons or Allagan drops that have come to you.

For me though? I just like playing every role. I'm working on SCH now so I'll have a tank, DPS and healer to roll as depending on my mood.

That's a strange point to make, seeing as how one of your primary complains was just that switching to full DL MNK would screw your group because no one else can switch to tank or something.

Uh, because I wouldn't be fucking locked out of doing coil on my WAR? I run and tank as usual with my friends. Then I wanna progress my MNK, so I swap to that and can run coil again (with another group or them on alts) because it's not locked out.

Do you understand that at some point in the future, either you start playing as MNK in your main coil group, or you don't? Your argument of "I have to come as tank in that group or we're screwed" is unaffected by whether or not you make a new character.

I find it amazing that you seem to believe that repeatedly rebuying myth accessories (7 weeks for the full set) is somehow either irrelevant or a feature of creating a new character. (Your position also appears to be that of a person who has unlimited time, as you seem to assign exactly zero value to any activity that doesn't have a lockout.)

[Lucavi]

"PLD is better than WAR therefore waaah"

Sounds like a competition issue to me.

I mean wow, yeah, coming from a Ranger I'm not surprised to hear this, but seriously dude? You're okay with gross discrepencies in core-content between the only two tanks in the game, simply by virtue of the old XI addage of "you can always just switch to the flavor-of-the-day Job"? I mean, if you haven't crunched the meta-data and numbers yet, then I forgive you, but if you've seen the stats and can still say this with a sneer, wow.

That's seriously your mindset in 2013? Still?

I thought people were supposed to grow up when they age.

[Jamison]

What's the fucking hurry?

The hurry is that at some point this gear will be useless. If it takes me 6 months to gear up two jobs (due to lockout/mytho restrictions), but one day later it becomes obsolete, that's a hell of a lot of wasted time. I'm VERY curious to see how endgame gear progression plays out and exactly how long they expect Allagan/AF2 to be BiS.

I think some of the frustration we see now about all of this will lessen when crystal tower comes out. That potentially can be an excellent way to gear up additional jobs to an acceptable level to run coil without being a serious hindrance to the group. I wouldn't have a problem having to dedicate finite resources to a single job if the alternatives kept secondary jobs within a reasonable gear level.

The big question is going to be what happens when the level cap goes up. Right now the gear progression goes from iLvl 55 to 90. If iLvl 90 becomes beyond useless because the new tiers are, say, from iLvl 120-160... personally I'll be a little bummed out. I would rather that iLvl 90 be a midway point, something that puts you a little further ahead compared to not having it. That seems a reasonable "reward" for gearing up to 90 in the first place.

[Spider-Dan]

I mean wow, yeah, coming from a Ranger I'm not surprised to hear this, but seriously dude? You're okay with gross discrepencies in core-content between the only two tanks in the game, simply by virtue of the old XI addage of "you can always just switch to the flavor-of-the-day Job"? I mean, if you haven't crunched the meta-data and numbers yet, then I forgive you, but if you've seen the stats and can still say this with a sneer, wow.

That's seriously your mindset in 2013? Still?

I thought people were supposed to grow up when they age.

Either you completely ignored the post I was responding to or you're just being dumb.

WAR vs. PLD is a competition (just like every other class competes for their role). Some people believe WAR cannot reasonably compete against PLD against Things That Matter (a point I don't necessarily dispute), but if they think that, why would they be worried about gimping their WAR by not spending all their myth on it?

The fact that current top-tier content emphasizes damage mitigation (at which PLD wins) over damage output (at which WAR wins) does not mean the class system is broken or that WAR is hopeless. There's nothing wrong with having a content cycle where some classes temporarily do better than others. 1.0 ARC was awesome in Darkhold but sucked against Ifrit; everyone gets their time in the spotlight.

P.S. Given the fact that you've been stuck in 2004 for the last 9 years (as you repeatedly reference XI DRG as the example of a supposedly useless class, when that hasn't been the case in XI for nearly a decade), admonishments from you to "grow up" are high comedy.