The VIT/STR debate for Paladin

[Argantes]

Don't need a thread for that.

What I meant was a new thread about whatever people are discussing outside of a STR/VIT comparison/debate.
Should have been more specific or worded it better, sorry.

[Elcura]

If you want every class to be as good as every other class for every type of content, then you're either asking for all content to be the same, or all classes to be the same.

No. That isn't balance, nor is it what I'm asking for; that's just stupid. Stop being stupid and start actually reading posts for once in your goddamn life.

Why would I be "asking" for all classes and content to be the same? Does that sound like something I want? Is that the impression you get from me explicitly saying I want all classes to perform differently or is that from something else? Where do you think I'm suggesting I want all content to be the same? Is that what you think balance is? lol, no.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but you can always have better balance.

[Spider-Dan]

Why would I be "asking" for all classes and content to be the same? Does that sound like something I want? Is that the impression you get from me explicitly saying I want all classes to perform differently or is that from something else?

I understand perfectly that you want classes to be different and you want content to be different, at the same time you want every class to be just as good as every other class. What I'm telling you is that hasn't happened, won't happen, and can't happen, because it's not possible. If you disagree, provide an example.

Balance and variety are opposing forces, and the only way to achieve the kind of balance that you're asking for is to homogenize classes, content, or both. If you have one tank that specializes in damage mitigation and one tank that specializes in damage output, they cannot be equally good in all content.

As you are determinedly ignoring, WAR is significantly better than PLD in a great deal of content. So what should be done to fix WAR in coil?

Increase their damage mitigation? Then PLD is even-more-outclassed on all the content that doesn't require max mitigation.
Perhaps you could increase PLD's damage output to compensate? Congratulations, you just went from a mitigation tank and a damage output tank to two tanks that don't specialize in either.

i.e. classes are the same

[Nyanoko]

No. That isn't balance, nor is it what I'm asking for; that's just stupid. Stop being stupid and start actually reading posts for once in your goddamn life.

Why would I be "asking" for all classes and content to be the same? Does that sound like something I want? Is that the impression you get from me explicitly saying I want all classes to perform differently or is that from something else? Where do you think I'm suggesting I want all content to be the same? Is that what you think balance is? lol, no.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but you can always have better balance.

Goddamn, you're a miserable little cunt.
You can want in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up first.
How about, instead of pissing and moaning, arguing with people who are telling you that your pipe dream of balance is unrealistic, you instead write in to SE with the magic solution. Or how about you go program an encounter which varies in tactics depending on the classes brought into it. I'm sure that's not too difficult, right?

Let me know when you do. Until then, can you pretty please just shut the fuck up?

[Elcura]

I understand perfectly that you want classes to be different and you want content to be different, at the same time you want every class to be just as good as every other class. What I'm telling you is that hasn't happened, won't happen, and can't happen, because it's not possible. If you disagree, provide an example.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but you can always have better balance.

Reading comprehension. Let's go.

Balance and variety are opposing forces, and the only way to achieve the kind of balance that you're asking for is to homogenize classes, content, or both. If you have one tank that specializes in damage mitigation and one tank that specializes in damage output, they cannot be equally good in all content.

What part of making classes as useful as each other means I want all classes to be the same? The point is that all classes should be able to handle all content as well as another class. Balance and variety may be opposing forces but they aren't mutually exclusive. You can have balance along with variety if you design your content or your classes well.

But do tell me, what variety of content or classes exist that makes the act of balancing impossible? Why can't you have content or classes without balance? I bet you don't even know.

As you are determinedly ignoring, WAR is significantly better than PLD in a great deal of content. So what should be done to fix WAR in coil?

WAR isn't significantly better. PLD is always the tank that reduces damage. Healers always complain about healing WARs more, that they take more damage and that PLDs are easier to heal. WAR has always had an easier time getting hate due to damage output, but not with keeping itself alive. WAR is not significantly better for a great deal of content, because for a great deal of content it doesn't matter. Guess when it starts to matter? When it starts to matter is Titan, because the spike damage starts to become something that WAR can't handle.

When suddenly you have WARs who like the job unable to perform properly at Coil. You seem to think that this is OK. It isn't.

If you're looking for answers on fixes WAR in coil, just look at the warrior topic.

Increase their damage mitigation? Then PLD is even-more-outclassed on all the content that doesn't require max mitigation.
Perhaps you could increase PLD's damage output to compensate? Congratulations, you just went from a mitigation tank and a damage output tank to two tanks that don't specialize in either.

i.e. classes are the same

Again, Warrior topic. Balance isn't about making classes the same. How many times do I have to tell you this. It's about making them as close as equal to the other as it can. Warrior doesn't need straight mitigation like PLD, but it needs buffs to keep up with PLD. That's the idea of balance. Not to make things the same, but to make all things as useful as possible. Hell, the difference could be as simple as active damage mitigation vs passive damage mitigation.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but you can always have better balance.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but you can always have better balance.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but you can always have better balance.

There, I said it 4 times now so there's no confusion.

Goddamn, you're a miserable little cunt.
You can want in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up first.
How about, instead of pissing and moaning, arguing with people who are telling you that your pipe dream of balance is unrealistic, you instead write in to SE with the magic solution. Or how about you go program an encounter which varies in tactics depending on the classes brought into it. I'm sure that's not too difficult, right?

Let me know when you do. Until then, can you pretty please just shut the fuck up?

Oh hey, it's you.



TANKING IS SO HARD GUYZ

Have you gotten more relics? I doubt it, if you had more relics your posts would make more sense. When you have an actual argument to present let me know. You and Spider-Dan should get married and have totally illiterate, brain-damaged children.

Also, and again, get out.

[Spider-Dan]

What part of making classes as useful as each other means I want all classes to be the same? The point is that all classes should be able to handle all content as well as another class.

The only way to do that is to reduce/eliminate their differences.

And for the record, what you just asked for is called "perfect balance." So you can post "I'm not asking for perfect balance" 50 more times, but if you're insisting that ALL classes be able to handle ALL content as well as the other classes, that is what perfect balance is. How can you possibly argue otherwise?

Balance and variety may be opposing forces but they aren't mutually exclusive.

Yes, you can improve balance by reducing variety.

You can have balance along with variety if you design your content or your classes well.

STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO PROVIDE EXAMPLE

WAR isn't significantly better. PLD is always the tank that reduces damage. Healers always complain about healing WARs more, that they take more damage and that PLDs are easier to heal. WAR has always had an easier time getting hate due to damage output, but not with keeping itself alive. WAR is not significantly better for a great deal of content, because for a great deal of content it doesn't matter.

Do you honestly believe that if Coil/Titan didn't exist, people would be saying, "Well, yeah, PLD has better defense than is needed, and WAR kills faster, but PLD is probably still just as good?" You should try reading this very thread, where people specifically pointed out that 1.0 PLD was useless because extra survivability wasn't needed so extra damage wins every time.

Do you seriously need an explanation as to why more damage will beat less damage by default unless other overriding factors are applied?

Let me try to put this in simple terms: if WAR and PLD can both tank an event comfortably, WAR will always be preferable because it deals more damage. This is not something that can be "fixed" without making them deal the same damage. Period.

Balance isn't about making classes the same. How many times do I have to tell you this. It's about making them as close as equal to the other as it can. Warrior doesn't need straight mitigation like PLD, but it needs buffs to keep up with PLD. That's the idea of balance. Not to make things the same, but to make all things as useful as possible. Hell, the difference could be as simple as active damage mitigation vs passive damage mitigation.

And again, if you give WAR buffs to increase their mitigation, then WAR wins because it deals more damage. There is no magic bullet.

[Elcura]

The only way to do that is to reduce/eliminate their differences.

Nope. Get out of your little bubble world and join us in reality.

And for the record, what you just asked for is called "perfect balance." So you can post "I'm not asking for perfect balance" 50 more times, but if you're insisting that ALL classes be able to handle ALL content as well as the other classes, that is what perfect balance is. How can you possibly argue otherwise?

No it isn't. Stop putting words in my mouth because I know you think I'm saying something else. I'm not. Read. You're doing it again Dan, not reading that is.

Yes, you can improve balance by reducing variety.

No, you can improve balance by looking at what you have and what you need vs what is planned to happen. That doesn't mean variety goes out the window, you can still make things balanced and have them different. Reducing variety makes balancing easier, this is true, but it's not an absolute and there's a matter of degree to all things. You only see one or the other, you're incapable of seeing anything in-between.

STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO PROVIDE EXAMPLE

To what? So I can't disagree with your stupid stance unless I provide an example of perfect balance? Which I've already said doesn't exist? Wow, talk about a loaded question. No wonder I won't answer it. Try harder.

Do you honestly believe that if Coil/Titan didn't exist, people would be saying, "Well, yeah, PLD has better defense than is needed, and WAR kills faster, but PLD is probably still just as good?" You should try reading this very thread, where people specifically pointed out that 1.0 PLD was useless because extra survivability wasn't needed so extra damage wins every time.

Do you seriously need an explanation as to why more damage will beat less damage by default unless other overriding factors are applied?

But Coil and Titan do exist. Before that, you could tank either tank because they both performed their job (tanking). If you wanted faster kills you took WAR, if you wanted safer kills you took PLD but the point is both are able to tank. This is not the case for Titan and Coil.

Players will have their preference, but the simply truth of the matter is WAR does not stand up at all to PLD.

Let me try to put this in simple terms: if WAR and PLD can both tank an event comfortably, WAR will always be preferable because it deals more damage. This is not something that can be "fixed" without making them deal the same damage. Period.

Sure, this is player choice. However, this doesn't eliminate PLD as a perfectly viable tank. If you can still use PLD and win, then you will. If a player only has PLD leveled you can use them. If you want maximum efficiency and speed, you choose WAR, but you could still choose PLD if you wanted.

This is not the case with Coil and Titan. It is the case with everything else.

And again, if you give WAR buffs to increase their mitigation, then WAR wins because it deals more damage. There is no magic bullet.

Increased mitigation doesn't automatically mean WAR can reach the same levels of reduction that PLD can (or even the same way). It means that WAR is able to keep pace with PLD in terms of damage taken. PLD has Sword Oath which currently does nothing, so they already have a damage option that could be buffed as well. PLD is passive, WAR is active. Simple, but different.

[Spider-Dan]

No it isn't. Stop putting words in my mouth because I know you think I'm saying something else.

Please explain what you think "perfect balance" is (you know, the thing you're supposedly NOT asking for). If EVERY class is as good at ALL content as the other classes, that is the definition of "perfect balance."

Furthermore:

So I can't disagree with your stupid stance unless I provide an example of perfect balance?

You only need to provide an example of ALL classes being as good at ALL content as the other classes. Which you just claimed was not "perfect balance."

But Coil and Titan do exist. Before that, you could tank either tank because they both performed their job (tanking). If you wanted faster kills you took WAR, if you wanted safer kills you took PLD but the point is both are able to tank. This is not the case for Titan and Coil.

Are you saying that it's impossible for WAR to tank Titan or Coil, or just that no one wants to use WAR because PLD is much better?

For sub-Titan content, WAR is better because faster kills are always better by default. If you can't even acknowledge this basic point, you have no business discussing balance in the first place.

If a player only has PLD leveled you can use them. If you want maximum efficiency and speed, you choose WAR, but you could still choose PLD if you wanted.

This is not the case with Coil and Titan.

So then, you are claiming that you cannot choose WAR for either of those?

Increased mitigation doesn't automatically mean WAR can reach the same levels of reduction that PLD can (or even the same way). It means that WAR is able to keep pace with PLD in terms of damage taken. PLD has Sword Oath which currently does nothing, so they already have a damage option that could be buffed as well.

If WAR could keep pace with PLD in terms of damage taken, then WAR wins because they deal more damage.

It is comedy gold to watch you insist that you're not asking for them to reduce variety... as you simultaneously call for WAR to be able to take more damage and PLD to be able to deal more damage. Gee, that's not reducing variety at all!

[Elcura]

Please explain what you think "perfect balance" is (you know, the thing you're supposedly NOT asking for). If EVERY class is as good at ALL content as the other classes, that is the definition of "perfect balance."

Holy crap. What? Saying that I want classes to perform as well as each other isn't asking for perfect balance, just better balance. Is anyone asking for WHM or SCH adjustments? Nope. Asking for MNK/DRG adjustments? Nope. BLM/BRD adjustments? Nope. Why? Because these classes have better balance than the tanks do.

Shall I get the quote again? I'mma get it again.

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but you can always have better balance.

In saying this, the point is that you need better balance for WAR and PLD in order to close the gap in performance. Balance isn't asking for everything to be the same, and asking for things to perform as well as the other isn't asking for perfect balance which is not asking for things to be the same; it's asking for better balance. Why?

There's no such thing as perfect balance, but you can always have better balance.

There is no such thing as perfect balance. Why would I be asking for it when I've acknowledged several times it cannot happen?

You only need to provide an example of ALL classes being as good at ALL content as the other classes. Which you just claimed was not "perfect balance."

That's not what I'm asking for, or even saying. Again. Read and stop putting words into my mouth. I know that's the only way you feel validated and correct, but seriously?

Are you saying that it's impossible for WAR to tank Titan or Coil, or just that no one wants to use WAR because PLD is much better?

Nope.

For sub-Titan content, WAR is better because faster kills are always better by default. If you can't even acknowledge this basic point, you have no business discussing balance in the first place.

Both work, whether WAR is better because of damage depends on the players and their mentality. How many times have you seen pre-titan "You're a PLD get lost we want a WAR!" I've personally never seen it.

So then, you are claiming that you cannot choose WAR for either of those?

Nope.

If WAR could keep pace with PLD in terms of damage taken, then WAR wins because they deal more damage.

It is comedy gold to watch you insist that you're not asking for them to reduce variety... as you simultaneously call for WAR to be able to take more damage and PLD to be able to deal more damage. Gee, that's not reducing variety at all!

Sigh.

Increased mitigation doesn't automatically mean WAR can reach the same levels of reduction that PLD can (or even the same way).

Come on dude. That very same quote as well. Jesus. Variety comes in many different forms, you've got a serious case of poo-brain. Still.

[Spider-Dan]

Saying that I want classes to perform as well as each other isn't asking for perfect balance, just better balance. [...]

Balance isn't asking for everything to be the same, and asking for things to perform as well as the other isn't asking for perfect balance which is not asking for things to be the same; it's asking for better balance. [...]

That's not what I'm asking for, or even saying. Again. Read and stop putting words into my mouth.

Unaltered quote in full context:

More to the point: Not every class should be able to do every piece of content exactly as well as every other class.

Err, yes they should. This is exactly what balance is about. Not every class should do it in exactly the same way, but they should all perform as well as each other.

Every class performing exactly as well as every other class for all content is what is known as "perfect balance."

[Tsuki]

Holy shit, wtf did I just walk into.

[Waraji]

http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-con...ofpopcorn1.gif

[Elcura]

Unaltered quote in full context:


Every class performing exactly as well as every other class for all content is what is known as "perfect balance."

Still doing it wrong. I was specific about them being different, as that is important. "But they should all perform as well as each other," not, "but they should all perform exactly as well as each other." See the difference? If we alter the quote a bit:

Err, yes they should. This is what balance is about. Not every class should do it in the same way, but they should all perform as well as each other.

Is this less confusing to you? Does this dial down the tone of perfection you think is implied in my post?

Every argument with you is the same, you misread something, get some notion into your head and run with it at full speed. Eventually we return to the source and it becomes clear how confused you've gotten.

[Spider-Dan]

- repeatedly accuses me of not being able to read/putting words in his mouth
- I post completely unaltered quote in full context
- can't even make a coherent response without altering his own quote
- accuses me of misreading again

GG

If you are asking for every class to perform just as well as every other class in all content (whether they do so in different ways or the same way), you are still asking for perfect balance. You misguidedly zoomed in on "exactly as well" when the key terms are actually "every class" and "all content."

At least be consistent enough to own up to what you are demanding.

[Elcura]

- repeatedly accuses me of not being able to read/putting words in his mouth
- I post completely unaltered quote in full context
- can't even make a coherent response without altering his own quote
- accuses me of misreading again

GG

If you are asking for every class to perform just as well as every other class in all content (whether they do so in different ways or the same way), you are still asking for perfect balance. You misguidedly zoomed in on "exactly as well" when the key terms are actually "every class" and "all content."

At least be consistent enough to own up to what you are demanding.

lol

Are we done yet? Or do you want to make more posts in italics and bold to get try to convince me that I'm saying you what you think I'm saying? Because you know, I've said it already. That you refuse to listen is none of my business.

[Lucavi]

Hey, fucker, you leave my italics and bold out of this.

[Nyanoko]

lol

Are we done yet? Or do you want to make more posts in italics and bold to get try to convince me that I'm saying you what you think I'm saying? Because you know, I've said it already. That you refuse to listen is none of my business.

...earlier:

"Is that the impression you get from me explicitly saying I want all classes to perform differently or is that from something else? Where do you think I'm suggesting I want all content to be the same? Is that what you think balance is?"

Fucking lol.
Nice Reddit chart, by the way. That places does seem more your speed.

[Elcura]

...earlier:

"Is that the impression you get from me explicitly saying I want all classes to perform differently or is that from something else? Where do you think I'm suggesting I want all content to be the same? Is that what you think balance is?"

Fucking lol.
Nice Reddit chart, by the way. That places does seem more your speed.

Are you still here? I thought I told you to get out. Your kind ain't welcome here.

[Limlight]

Hey, fucker, you leave my italics and bold out of this.

so should they take your longhaft instead? oh mighty lord!

[Lucavi]

Only one may lay claim to the Longhaft.