The VIT/STR debate for Paladin

[Charismatic]

Elcura, the kind of balance you're asking for isn't realistic. Hell, I don't even think its desirable.
I think classes should excell at certain types of content but should be workable for all kinds... imo that's the real point of a class system.

[Lucavi]

The trouble is that right now, there's no content for that choice to be made. You have level 50 dungeons which mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things, and you have Coil. That's it. Even when Crystal Tower comes out, the gear that drops still won't be preferable to coil drops, so again, in the grand scheme of progression, it would still mean shit if Warrior somehow edged out Pld - and there's no guarantee that it'll work out that way considering that Titan is a tier lower than Crystal Tower and still breaks the damage cap that leads to Warrior being far inferior.

PVP remains the sole possibility within the current confines of the game, but if there's no desirable "gear" that drops from PVP, we're back to square one of Pld being desired for all things important and Warrior being relegated to the leftovers.

[lilbubbles]

I think the real problem is that people are undergeared for coil and winning by the skin of their teeth.

Of course pld is better in that situation, but what will it looks like when people are decked out in the proper gear? People are going to want the tank they can get through it faster with and paladins are going to complain.

I'll bookmark this post and come back to it in a few months.

[Spider-Dan]

The trouble is that right now, there's no content for that choice to be made. You have level 50 dungeons which mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things, and you have Coil. That's it.

In other words:

- if the current desirable content is Garuda, then WAR is awesome and PLD is useless
- if it's Titan, then PLD is awesome and WAR is useless
- if Ramuh comes out and the mechanics are more like Garuda, then PLD is useless again

...all without making any changes to the jobs themselves.

[Lucavi]

In other words:

- if the current desirable content is Garuda, then WAR is awesome and PLD is useless
- if it's Titan, then PLD is awesome and WAR is useless
- if Ramuh comes out and the mechanics are more like Garuda, then PLD is useless again

...all without making any changes to the jobs themselves.

Pld isn't useless in the slightest for Garuda. Garuda is killed about a minute faster with a War in speed runs. That's the difference. When people first hit 50, they wouldn't even let a War main-tank Garuda.

Some things at this point literally -cannot- be killed without using a pld. Has anyone dual-war tanked Turn 4? Conversely, has anyone dual-tanked Turn 4 with pld?

You're making the wrong points. You can either split content between each tank having their day in the sun (advisable) while making said content relevant, or you can do the current thing where all relevant content is Pld-onry. This relevance comes from the fact the SE can only really design end-game content that features high damage and cleaves, which speaks more towards their old-fashioned and out-of-touch design philosophies, but that's the reality of the day.

Which is the smarter choice?

[Nyanoko]

Are you still here? I thought I told you to get out. Your kind ain't welcome here.

Aww, if you say so.

OH wait...you're just a nobody.

Anyway, TL;DR for the thread:
STR/VIT: add a point or two of STR to reach a parry % increase, otherwise VIT. Unless you're rocking full ilvl90.
Content will always favor certain classes over others. The cycle of buffs/nerfs/new content continues.

[Spider-Dan]

Pld isn't useless in the slightest for Garuda. Garuda is killed about a minute faster with a War in speed runs. That's the difference.

There was no content that you literally couldn't do with a PLD in 1.0, yet everyone agrees that WAR completely obsoleted PLD in that game. That's the real difference: if there's no requirement for PLD's extra survivability, the tank that deals more damage will always be preferred.

Some things at this point literally -cannot- be killed without using a pld.

Unless you're talking about single-tank content, this doesn't matter. If ("relevant") content exists that requires one WHM, that does not mean SCH is obsolete.

You're making the wrong points. You can either split content between each tank having their day in the sun (advisable) while making said content relevant, or you can do the current thing where all relevant content is Pld-onry.

When you define "relevant content" exclusively as "the Coil," then whichever tank is superior at the Coil is better at all relevant content. Q.E.D.

[Elcura]

Elcura, the kind of balance you're asking for isn't realistic. Hell, I don't even think its desirable.
I think classes should excell at certain types of content but should be workable for all kinds... imo that's the real point of a class system.

Making all classes viable and useful is something that FFXI never did that FFXIV has a chance to do. When you start making one class purposely excel (especially for specific content, holy shit lol) for no reason then all you're doing is creating a mess. Ranged DPS sometimes have the advantage, melee DPS sometimes have the advantage and realistic balancing isn't about making the melee DPS as good at ranged DPS or vice versa. That's why Spider-Dan is being stupid, because that's the impression he gets from the word balance. The only commonality these classes have is that they deal damage, that's the only area they should be as equal as possible in. How they deal damage is where preference comes into it, you pick based on what you like. Is there a specific reason BRD or DRG needs to be stronger than BLM and MNK? Why would you adjust a class (or content) to be specifically better for one or the other? Does that make content more fun or more exclusive? I don't understand what kind of content exists when you make some classes specifically better for it. I certainly don't understand what kind of game you're trying to make either.

People think SCH hasn't got a good HoT/regen spell, but it does. Or that SCH can't handle OHSHIT situations as well as WHM (which I think is true). What it doesn't have is quality of life adjustments to make it easier to use on command. Balancing SCH isn't about giving it more AoE healing or stronger direct cures, it's making the fairy easier to use and less trigger happy so SCH has the control that WHM has. Or something like giving Succor the same crit shield bonus as Adloquium.

I thought the point of a class system was being able to play whatever you wanted. If the job you like isn't useful or viable for content then suddenly you're left feeling bad for holding your party back or frustrated you have to gear another job you don't like, or haven't even got leveled yet so you're left behind. If that isn't a reason to have better class balance I dunno what is.

Hell, even with better class balance the last thing I want (and I've stated already) is for classes to be the same. People seem to think that true balancing is an easy or straightforward numbers game. If you increase PLD damage, they'll be equal to WAR or if you increase WARs damage mitigation, they'll be equal to PLD! Nah, balancing is also design based as well. Shit, even the overheal suggestion could work in WARs favour without turning WAR into a PLD clone. You adjust how useful that is compared to other classes and judge whether you've balanced the job correctly or not. If it isn't balanced, it'll either be shit or really OP. Hell, you could change how Wrath is lost so WAR only loses a few stacks of Wrath per IB/SC (or a number depending on the ability) so regaining Infuriation is faster meaning more IBs for more HP. There are so many ways you could balance WAR that aren't just straight damage mitigation that keep the jobs flavour and makes it more useful.

I dunno why you wouldn't want that. That's my kind of balancing. Whether you think it's unrealistic is up to you because all I'll say is that good balance doesn't come easily.

Content will always favor certain classes over others. The cycle of buffs/nerfs/new content continues.

Which is called balancing, genius.

[Nyanoko]

Which is called balancing, genius.

This is like trying to teach a chimp. Good luck with your reading comprehension goals in 2013.

[Elcura]

This is like trying to teach a chimp. Good luck with your reading comprehension goals in 2013.

You still here?

[Jahaudant]

Are you still here? Fucking lol.

8/10 would probably read again.

Also; epic thread derailment, please refer to pages 1-4 for the actual related discussion.

[Invictus]

Yeah 40~ STR to reach the next tier and only get marginally more DPS vs losing a shit ton of HP? There's no real debate.

Also, in before lock.

[Argantes]

Yeah 40~ STR to reach the next tier and only get marginally more DPS vs losing a shit ton of HP? There's no real debate.

Also, in before lock.

it's not exactly a shit ton tbh.
I mean, yeah, before someone jumps my tits, I use VIT.
People say "whawha coil" etc.
Which is true, but they also forget that there is a complete tier of gear which hasn't been released yet you're "supposed" to do coil in.

I'm not saying it's a smart way to release stuff, but it's simply what it comes down to.
You wanna do coil now (pretty much undergeared but very far from impossible) go VIT, it works.
You not bothered too much and just wanna wait for CT to be released and then do coil, it probably won't matter one bit which way you go.

[Jahaudant]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/117...=1#post5884928