Pugilist/monk discussion

[Niiro]

Nuh uh!

The BRD one is a slightly different color.

[Venussama]

Brd isn't melee xD

An yes very lazy!

[Angeleus]

Base Rotation (trash mobs):

Flank > Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Back > Bootshine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Flank > Dragon Kick > etc etc etc

Extended Rotation (boss mobs):

Flank > Perfect Balance > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Snap Punch > Blood for Blood > Demolish > Touch of Death > Internal Release > Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Back > Bootshine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Flank > Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Back > Bootshine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Flank > Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > etc etc

I'm not 50 yet.. However, I'm 20 I went thru all the pages and didn't see any dispute about this set up. So, I take it everyone is using this set up?

[Kiarax]

Is Dragon Kick off or about to drop? If Y Dragon Kick, if N Bootshine.
Is Twin Snakes off or about to drop? If Y Twin Snakes, if N True Strike.
Is Demolish off or about to drop? If Y (and mob will live >15 seconds) Demolish, if N Snap Punch.
Fracture after Demolish, Touch of Death whenever it drops. Steel Peak/Howling Fist on CD unless you need stuns or need to save for upcoming DPS races (Titan heart, etc).

[Icarian]

Basically what Kiarax said, I wouldn't bother with other cross-class skills besides fracture, there's a lot of mumbo-jumbo on the OF about adding ID to your rotation but that's a sure way to make your DPS plummet after 2~ minutes in a fight.

[Carth]

ID looked a little tempting to experiment with at first, but it's basically a Snap Punch without all the benefits added to it. I don't see why any Monk would use it.

[Niiro]

ID = Impulsive Drive?

I have no idea why you'd ever want to use that on MNK, they have a tight enough rotation as it is to risk dropping DK/Twin Snakes/DoTs for a directionally dependent DRG combo opener with no inherent bonuses and a high TP cost.

[Yugl]

My guess is that you would skip much of the combo and just use that. If you have the buffs up (Not sure how well their duration is since my MNK is LV30 ish atm), the basic combos seem to be 195 > 150 > 180 for a total of 525 potency. The combo of ID would be 3x 180 potency with a total of 540 potency. ID would gain another advantage by being able to further increase damage from the first ID (Bootshine's 195 comes from the 50% increased damage due to critical hits) critical hits. Again, this requires active buffs and debuffs (Including GLIII).

[Niiro]

It just doesn't seem worth the complication of potentially dropping/delaying your other buffs/DoTs.

For a non-lazy MNK making full use of back and rear combos there's already a lot of moving to do and a big risk of stuff messing with your directional attacks to have time to add in ID.

In shorter fights you want to get through your combos asap (especially your first so you can apply DK) to build GL and for longer/boss fights I'd imagine the high TP cost would be quite a drain on a job that burns through TP so fast to begin with.

edit: also, I've always wondered if WSs used cross class keep the damage type of their original class or if they take on the type of the current job (ie. would impulsive drive be considered piercing or blunt when used on MNK)

[Voyage1970]

edit: also, I've always wondered if WSs used cross class keep the damage type of their original class or if they take on the type of the current job (ie. would impulsive drive be considered piercing or blunt when used on MNK)

Pretty sure it just depends on your Weapon. I've notice my Fracture's doing more damage once Dragon Kick debuff goes up, but honestly it was eyeball measurement so take that for what it's worth. And as far as other Cross-Class besides Fracture, Mercy Stroke is a straight up DPS increase once the mob is at 20% considering its off GCD so no reason not to use that. It's also one of our strongest moves at 200 potency.

[Elcura]

Using Impulse Drive is just wasteful. If you have the skillspeed to comfortably rotate TwS and TS you're definitely running out of TP within the next 2 minutes, and if you don't you're definitely running of out TP within the next 3-5 minutes. Impulse Drive is not helping that, the only reason Fracture is so useful is because you can fire and forgot about it as part of your normal rotation and there's no directional requirements so you can use it anywhere and not suffer a DPS loss.

Not only are you wasting TP, you're wasting time that might be needed to refresh GL with non-native MNK WS.

Randomly, I wondered if the bonus you get for GL applies as soon as the buff is upgraded or does it keep the previous level? For instance, say you use Demolish as the last step in your opening combo (giving you GL1), would the DoT applied have the GL bonus or no bonus?

[Niiro]

I don't think it would, much in the same way that casting Fire 3 on BLM won't do AF3-level damage unless you already have AF3.

Or if building with Fire 1s the 3rd Fire 1 won't do AF3-level damage either.

[Icarian]

I can say for sure Snap Punch's GL effect doesn't apply before damage, so I'd say it's the same for Demolish.

[Kaixin]

Questions about cross-class skills got me thinking. In a scenario with unlimited TP, and enough skill speed to fit in 6 GCDs before greased lightning drops, what would be the optimal skill path? After some crunching, I found some interesting patterns and present the following skill path as food for thought.

Assumptions

• Unlimited TP.
• GCD is 2 seconds.
• Buffs and DoTs are applied the MOMENT THE GCD IS USED. From experience I know this is not always the case.
• Non-GCDs and Haymaker are ignored for simplicity.

Skills

• Dragon Kick (DK): 150 potency, must be refreshed within 7 GCDs.
• Twin Snakes (TS): 140 potency, must be refreshed within 6 GCDs.
• Snap Punch (S): 180 potency
• Impulse Drive (I): 180 potency
• Fracture (F): 220 potency, requires 9 GCDs for full potency. Still better than Snap Punch/Impulse Drive if clipped 1 tick. (200 potency)
• Demolish (D): 240 potency, requires 9 GCDs for full potency. Still better than Snap Punch/Impulse Drive if clipped 1 tick. (200 potency)
• Touch of Death (T): 270 potency, requires 15 GCDs for full potency. Better than Demolish if clipped 1 tick. (245 potency) Same as Fracture if clipped 2 ticks. (220 potency) Better than Snap Punch/Impulse Drive but worse than clipped Fracture/Demolish if clipped 3 ticks (195 potency)

Why No Bootshine/True Strike?
Bootshine and True Strike are never used, as the weakest DK/TS alternative (ID/ID) has more average potency:
Let C = crit chance. I'm assuming a crit is 1.5*potency.
Expected value of 2xID is 2(180(1-C)+270(C)) = 360+180C.
Expected value of Bootshine into True Strike is 195 + (150(.95-C) + 225(C+.05)) = 348.75+75C.
For all values of C, 2xID outperforms Bootshine into True Strike.


The Path
DK-TS-D
T-F
DK-TS-S
I-I
DK-TS-D
I-F
DK-TS-S
I-T
DK-TS-D
I-F
DK-TS-S
I-I
DK-TS-D
I-F-T
DK-TS-S
I
DK-TS-D
I-F
DK-TS-S
I
DK-TS-T-D (first form extension. Up until now I've tried to keep form moves together for simplicity)
I-F
DK-TS-S
I-I
DK-TS-D
I-F
DK-TS-T-S (second form extension)
I
DK-TS-D
I-F
DK-TS-S
I
DK-TS-D
I-T-F (first "imperfect" DoT application. both T and F can be refreshed at the second GCD in this sequence)
DK-TS-S

And so on. At this point I no longer have the energy to continue writing down the skill path by hand. The idea was to use full potency DoTs as much as possible and Impulse Drive to fill in the spaces. This led to some occasions where I had to backtrack and use more DK/TS than necessary in order to use a DoT as soon as possible. The other way to approach it is to use DK/TS as little as possible by using 3 skills in between Greased Lightning finishers. This may lead to more Impulse Drives but also suboptimal DoT application. The question there is whether the damage gained from Impulse Drives over DK/TS outweighs the potential damage lost from suboptimal DoTs. I suspect fight duration to play a key role in answering that question.

Further Research
What's the best possible opening? The path presented here handwaves how to get to GL3 and starts with DK-TS-D, but clearly once GL3 is attained, Touch of Death would be the optimal skill to start with. Other methods are:

• PB into Sx3
• PB into Sx2 into D
• PB into DK/TS (for the buffs) into Snap Punch
• PB Sx1, DK/TS, S, D
• Opening with Touch of Death
• et cetera.

Form extensions. I tried to keep form skills (DK/TS/S/D) together as much as possible. With forms lasting several seconds, I assume there's more room for complexity and optimization of this skill path, complex as it is already.

By the Twelve, Is It Over Yet?
Finally, if you have found any error in my math or assumptions, please let me know. Thanks for reading.

- Li Kaixin, Leviathan

Edits: Bootshine/True Strike math re-calculated.

[Icarian]

In a scenario with unlimited TP

This right here makes the whole thing irrelevant, because such scenario doesn't exist within the game. That'd be like saying "in a scenario with unlimted MP, I can spam Fire 1 on my BLM for best DPS"

Spamming ID will leave you out of TP in the first 2 or 3 minutes of the fight and there's no way around that, asking a bard to reduce it's damage 20% so you can spam ID means lower DPS for the group.

And IMO, I wouldn't advise doing a super tight rotation, you have to take into account latency, dodging, repositioning, adds if there's any, etc, if you have to stop doing WS's for a second or two for whatever reason you'll lose either Twin snakes buff, Greased Lightning or both, which will leave you with less DPS overall.

[Kaixin]

Like I said, I'm merely presenting my findings as food for thought. However, I disagree with writing the whole thing off as irrelevant. Yes, the path I theorycrafted out is definitely one of those "assume air is a vacuum" kind of things. But I think the more general lesson to take from it is that while monks are already TP-negative using a "stable" rotation, they can still hit the afterburners if they really need to. One day you may find yourself in a strict DPS-check encounter with a resource-refilling mechanic, akin to Vaelastrasz in WoW. While a BLM may be able to easily say "I should spam Fire 1," I think the optimal strategy for monks is non-obvious. Personally, I was surprised to find out that 3xID outperforms a Bootshine rotation in all cases.

Certainly I don't advocate liberal use of Impulse Drive in a stable, drawn-out fight. But I can see it coming in handy in certain situations...perhaps during Titan EM's heart phase, for example. Or maybe you estimate you've got a minute left in a fight and you've been dodging and re-positioning like a good melee DPS, consequently leaving you with more TP than you can use. In these cases, it may be appropriate for you to hit the nos and burn some TP.

[Elcura]

Even in Ultima v1 where your TP refills occasionally you can't do that kind of rotation without running out of TP before the next refill (which I've done with normal rotations). Incase you haven't been playing MNK TP is kind of a deal breaker so it just isn't practical. Congrats on finding it out, but you'll need to do a lot of work to convince me it's worth even a second look because right now it isn't. You could start with some practical applications rather than just suggesting that we could do something like this in these situations.

[Francisco]

Looking at the upgrades I can make to my gear, most of them come with what seems to be a sizeable loss in other stats...

Bracelets: Imperial Operative -> Darklight
Gain: STR+2, Crit Rate+4, Determination +6
Lose: Skill Speed +11

Ring: Peltast -> Darklight Ring of Maiming (I have Striking already)
Gain: STR+1, Acc+4
Lose: Skill Speed +2

Belt: Peltast -> Darklight
Gain: STR+1, VIT+2 Acc+12, Determination+1
Lose: Skill Speed +11

Neck: Imperial Operative -> Darklight
Gain: STR+2, Acc+12
Lose: Crit Rate +2, Determination +5

Legs: Peltast -> Darklight
Gain: STR+4, VIT+4, Acc+27, Skill Speed +2
Lose: Crit Rate +24

Body: Peltast -> Darklight
Gain: STR+4, VIT+4, Acc+6, Determination +1
Lose: Nothing

Head: Peltast -> Darklight
Gain: STR+2, VIT+3, Acc+1, Skill Speed +11
Lose: Determination +7

Body and Head seem like no brainers to grab for now - legs don't really seem worth it, with Allagan Legs probably being close to obtainable at this point. Losing the crit rate by switching to Darklight seems pretty huge.

Thinking some of the other upgrades might not be worth it, when I'm fairly close to being able to invest myth tomes into accessories (I'll be done with relic +1 on Monday). Still, even at with capping myth tomes every week, it would take me until April 7th to obtain the full set of MNK relic armor and hero accessories.

Thoughts on which Darklight pieces are less than necessary, and which myth gear should take priority?

[Moridam]

for darklight, i think i did body and hands first and then started filling out the accessory slots. i skipped on the head (the bump from peltast to DL seemed small enough that it wasn't worth prioritizing at any point, and i'd settled on melee circlet for my first myth armor upgrade anyway) and legs entirely, i think the last pieces i replaced were feet and peltast ring.

i'm probably going to do body for my next myth piece as it will represent the largest single-slot increase, mostly though i'm just sick of looking at darklight body.

[Niiro]

With decently melded ImpOp. wrist/neck you can skip DL entirely if you want.