Pugilist/monk discussion

[Niiro]

Related: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/117...=1#post6001422

tldr: 10 DTR was ever so so so so so slightly more damage than 2 STR for an ilvl90 DRG.

[Selamis]

I've been trying to get my gear to be matching to the bis stuff posted above but I'm sorta at a loss of what should be considered ideal stats for accuracy, determination, crit.. I just started doing BC so that is all a work in progress but have access currently to a mix of i90, CT, and DL gear at the moment.

Is there any case where i70 accessories with materia outshine any of the gear listed above? A reason to have?

[Icarian]

The sets above are outdated though, unless you don't have access to Primal EX weapon/drops either.

I've been running with 470-473 Acc on T5 and I've never missed a WS on Twintania/Snakes, you don't need 470 at all times though, only for T5 (Ie; I've been running with 405~ Acc. with my BLM and I haven't missed in T2/Primals EX when you need 435~ for Twintania IIRC), ilvl70 accessories are not worth it because you can't make up the STR loss with melds so only use them if you don't/can't have any of the ilvl90 ones.

[Selamis]

The sets above are outdated though, unless you don't have access to Primal EX weapon/drops either.

I've been running with 470-473 Acc on T5 and I've never missed a WS on Twintania/Snakes, you don't need 470 at all times though, only for T5 (Ie; I've been running with 405~ Acc. with my BLM and I haven't missed in T2/Primals EX when you need 435~ for Twintania IIRC), ilvl70 accessories are not worth it because you can't make up the STR loss with melds so only use them if you don't/can't have any of the ilvl90 ones.

I haven't farmed the Extreme Primals yet but I just formed a static with a group and we plan to start doing this as well, I was building towards this list before the static formed, but thanks for the info.

[Tsutsumiko]

I've always been under the assumption that the STR:DET Ratio is along the lines of 1:7~, I don't have any numbers to back it up nor I can really prove it myself because I don't have the means/knowledge to do so, but that's what it feels like to me, higher weight would make DET way too overpowered, and lower would make it not worth it compared to Crit or other stats, so 21 DET would be along the lines of 3-4 STR, that's why I said "barely".

It would be great if someone could test what weight determination has over other stats to get some solid numbers on what's best, right now I'm sitting at 324 DET with 431 Crit, 396 Speed and 473 Acc (with no food), I've tried a SS build but didn't like it at all, it doesn't do anything for auto attacks and DoTs and it doesn't increase your Damage:TP ratio, it only makes you deplete it faster, way too fast for some fights that end up with you having to cut on DoTs further decreasing your damage in order to not run out of TP, and without access to T5 gear doing a Crit build makes your Determination plummet hard which I don't find it to be worth it.

In the above builds, the top one is the most DPS, with the Crit (bottom one) doing the least amount of damage. You are correct that without Turn 5 drops, it's hard to make a Crit Build that's better than the other two stats.

Related: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/117...=1#post6001422

tldr: 10 DTR was ever so so so so so slightly more damage than 2 STR for an ilvl90 DRG.

As far as I know Niiro, stats are weighted differently on different jobs. What have you been doing to test your numbers? Care to shoot it at me? I have all the time in the world to test it.

I need to test anyways as I keep hearing 2.1 changed stat weights/formulas a lot and Dancing-Mad hasn't updated post patch so I really want to make sure I'm not just touting around old info.

The sets above are outdated though, unless you don't have access to Primal EX weapon/drops either.

I've been running with 470-473 Acc on T5 and I've never missed a WS on Twintania/Snakes, you don't need 470 at all times though, only for T5 (Ie; I've been running with 405~ Acc. with my BLM and I haven't missed in T2/Primals EX when you need 435~ for Twintania IIRC), ilvl70 accessories are not worth it because you can't make up the STR loss with melds so only use them if you don't/can't have any of the ilvl90 ones.

The sets are outdated, as I said. Those are the base builds though. Simply add Hellish Claws and add one or two pieces if you dip below 470 ACC.

[Obsidian]

I don't see how a skill speed build could possibly win over any comparable DET build (at the very least) given that skill speed has no impact on auto-attack damage and will stress your TP usage in any fights longer than two minutes.

[arlee]

In the above builds, the top one is the most DPS, with the Crit (bottom one) doing the least amount of damage. You are correct that without Turn 5 drops, it's hard to make a Crit Build that's better than the other two stats.

As far as I know Niiro, stats are weighted differently on different jobs. What have you been doing to test your numbers? Care to shoot it at me? I have all the time in the world to test it.

I need to test anyways as I keep hearing 2.1 changed stat weights/formulas a lot and Dancing-Mad hasn't updated post patch so I really want to make sure I'm not just touting around old info.

So a deter build would be better for mnk than a crit build?
I've heard that deter scales better for high potency WS's. Figured thats why alot of DRG gear has deter and thought mnks probably need a higher number deter to outweigh the crit rate.

[Tsutsumiko]

I don't see how a skill speed build could possibly win over any comparable DET build (at the very least) given that skill speed has no impact on auto-attack damage and will stress your TP usage in any fights longer than two minutes.

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/calculat...ut-calculator/

Test it yourself. You can literally plug in the stat gains from both sets and you'll see the one gearing towards the Skill Speed wins out in this case because it has a perfect storm of SSpeed and Determination and Crit.

Skill Speed is garbage. It's just the secondary (or I guess third & fourth in this case?) stats just happen to edge it out by fractions over the Determination build.

So a deter build would be better for mnk than a crit build?
I've heard that deter scales better for high potency WS's. Figured thats why alot of DRG gear has deter and thought mnks probably need a higher number deter to outweigh the crit rate.

Determination > Critical Hit > Skill Speed for damage.

Problem is, there's no good set of i90 gear that gives Determination without accumulating a bunch of Accuracy or Skill Speed with it. The result is that you have to take the Critical Hit build as it gives the most damage without taking on a ton of SS and Accuracy, unlike going "highest Determination on every piece" build.

This is again why the SSpeed works out above over the Det build. The Det build simply accumulates too much Accuracy & SSpeed without picking up any extra Crit Hit along the way.

[Icarian]

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/calculat...ut-calculator/

Test it yourself. You can literally plug in the stat gains from both sets and you'll see the one gearing towards the Skill Speed wins out in this case because it has a perfect storm of SSpeed and Determination and Crit.

Skill Speed is garbage. It's just the secondary (or I guess third & fourth in this case?) stats just happen to edge it out by fractions over the Determination build.



Determination > Critical Hit > Skill Speed for damage.

Problem is, there's no good set of i90 gear that gives Determination without accumulating a bunch of Accuracy or Skill Speed with it. The result is that you have to take the Critical Hit build as it gives the most damage without taking on a ton of SS and Accuracy, unlike going "highest Determination on every piece" build.

This is again why the SSpeed works out above over the Det build. The Det build simply accumulates too much Accuracy & SSpeed without picking up any extra Crit Hit along the way.

There's a really good set with Primal Ex drops now, I have a lot of Determination, low Skill Speed and decent Crit, I posted my stats above, that's without any of the T5 drops, It comes above of all the sets you posted, not by much, but it's still better than them

Hellish Claws
Allagan Visor
Allagan Choker of Striking
Tremor Earring
Melee Body
Inferno Bracelets
Allagan Gloves
Allagan Belt
Melee Legs
Allagan Feet
Allagan Ring of Maiming
Vortex Ring

You could switch the Vortex Ring for for the allagan ring of striking and the Ifrit's bracelet for the Hero's on for better results, but I don't want to waste 375 myth on it for such a marginal difference

This set gives you high determination with low speed and average crit, I used to wear something similar of Tsutsumiko's crit set before 2.1, I find this set way better than what I was wearing before.

Also, that calc doesn't take into account any of the DoTs, which Det affects and SS doesn't, so Det is actually better than what that calculator shows.

[Niiro]

As far as I know Niiro, stats are weighted differently on different jobs. What have you been doing to test your numbers? Care to shoot it at me? I have all the time in the world to test it.

It's all in the linked post, just lots of WSing test dummies with a 13 str neck vs an 11 STR 10 DET neck.

I doubt that DET is weighted differently depending on job as much as it's effects may differ depending on a a variety of factors that might differ between jobs (skill potency, damage buffs, weapon damage DMG in the case of BRD).

For MNK and DRG the only differences would be WS potency (DRG has more high potency skills) and damage buffs (GL), I think it would be more likely that DTR might have varying effects based on those factors rather than simply based on the job. It's not like certain jobs gain more crit rate than others with the same crit stat.

[Tsutsumiko]

It's all in the linked post, just lots of WSing test dummies with a 13 str neck vs an 11 STR 10 DET neck.

I doubt that DET is weighted differently depending on job as much as it's effects may differ depending on a a variety of factors that might differ between jobs (skill potency, damage buffs, weapon damage DMG in the case of BRD).

For MNK and DRG the only differences would be WS potency (DRG has more high potency skills) and damage buffs (GL), I think it would be more likely that DTR might have varying effects based on those factors rather than simply based on the job. It's not like certain jobs gain more crit rate than others with the same crit stat.

Alright guess it's time to get a parser and hit the training dummies tonight after I do T5.

Suggestions for parsers? Which are you using? I tried FFXIVApp very briefly but it seems crappy.

[Niiro]

XIVapp is what I used (or ever used), don't know why you would think it was crap.

[Tsutsumiko]

XIVapp is what I used (or ever used), don't know why you would think it was crap.

Pretty sure it's cause the person walking me through how to use it did a horrible job and I was confused by a whole bunch of overlaying bars in game. I just remember trying it once and it didn't work out. I'll spend my lunch break today reading up on how to set it up properly and make it all nice and neat. Alternatively you could just PM me or I'll message you in game to try to set it all up. This whole "weight" thing has been annoying me for a while now so I want to try to get some more exact numbers.

I have a feeling your statements on WS potency are probably true. MNK's WS Potency is on average is lower than DRG's.

Edit: A quick search around shows that Windows 8.1 has known issues for XIVApp which is probably why everything seemed weird and I couldn't seem to figure out how to get data to display.

[Niiro]

You're probably better off looking in the XIVapp thread http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/113...P-FFXIV-Parser

I've never had to mess with anything to get it to work.

[Zirael]

Anyone mind sharing current sustained (single target) and burst rotations for MNK? I've seen burst example posted above, but can't find sustained one. Any help much appreciated.

[Icarian]

DK/Bootshine - TwS/TrS - Snap Punch/Demolish

DoT/Fracture when it runs out, Fracture lines up perfectly with Demolish.

I don't have a fixed rotation because many times the boss will turn around to cast something or you'll have to dodge stuff, so I make decisions mid combo whether I'm going to land a BS/TrS at the back or not, going with a fixed rotation is asking to get a lot of BS/TrS/Demolish without positional bonuses IMO.

[Tsutsumiko]

Finally got a parser working. Any suggestions on suitable gear swaps that I can use to test Strength vs. Determination?

Niiro above had a piece that basically gave him 2 STR vs. 12 Determination or so. Looking for some examples of likewise gear I could use but the closest I could come up with was Darklight Hands vs. Fuma Tekko (11ish Determination vs. 2 STR and 1 or 2 crit which is almost negligible).

As for testing, gonna just use about 10 runs through my normal ramp up combo unless someone has a better idea on how to gauge damage.

Proposed Combo: (Touch of Death), Perfect Balance, Snap Punch, Blood for Blood, Snap Punch, Internal Release, Dragon Kick, Steel Peak, Twin Snakes, Howling Fist, Demolish, Fracture, (Touch of Death), Bootshine, True Strike, Snap Punch, Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch

I normally like ToD first as it gives the most time for procs and doesn't make waste of a GCD, though it does less damage over time.

Still new at this but I want to figure out this whole thing once and for all so I'm open to suggestions.

[Niiro]

2 STR vs 10 DET*

Also in order to get accurate numbers on a very small difference in stats you need a very large data pool, it's not something you want to do manually. I just had a macro that did Heavy -> True -> Vorpal -> Full and an automated keypress to activate the macro every 13s.

[arlee]

Finally got a parser working. Any suggestions on suitable gear swaps that I can use to test Strength vs. Determination?

Niiro above had a piece that basically gave him 2 STR vs. 12 Determination or so. Looking for some examples of likewise gear I could use but the closest I could come up with was Darklight Hands vs. Fuma Tekko (11ish Determination vs. 2 STR and 1 or 2 crit which is almost negligible).

Ultima Striking neck vs Hero Neck if you got both pieces, not sure if thats what Niiro used but thats basically the 13 STR vs the 11STR + 10 Deter.

[Tsutsumiko]

Ultima Striking neck vs Hero Neck if you got both pieces, not sure if thats what Niiro used but thats basically the 13 STR vs the 11STR + 10 Deter.

I have neither piece but I might do it for the sake of figuring it out. Open to other suggestions too.

Fair enough on that Niiro. I'll just set it up to perform Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch from the flank for several hours then swap.

Edit: Closest I can probably do is farm Ultima for Ultima chokers vs. Maiming Choker. Maiming has 1 more Crit hit point but it should illustrate the point still of 10 DET vs. 2 STR for MNK. I'll try this.