Pugilist/monk discussion

[Tsutsumiko]

WD 8.321
STR 1
DTR 0.329
CRT 0.163
SS 0.157

Stat weightings from EasymodeX of official forums using a modified Valk
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...43#post1760843
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...08#post1761108

You can find discussion/datapoints in this thread regarding the damage formulae.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Formula-Thread



I've never heard of any skill speed breakpoints? Are you sure it's not linear like any other stat?

Oh God, here we go again for the THIRD time in this thread:

There's no way in hell EasyMode's stat weights are correct. If this was the case, Fuma Komoro would literally destroy both the Melee Cyclas and the Allagan Striking Body. Having owned all 3 pieces and parsed all 3 pieces, there is no way it is correct. That alone should disprove that his weights are correct.

Assuming that Determination scales linearly (which as far as I know it does), you can compute Determination vs. Strength on Training Dummies over the course of several hours. I did this and came up with something that suggests a spread of 5.5~7 Determination was equal to 1 Strength. So that's two ways I now know his stat weights are incorrect.

Then you look at what Judai was saying about the Skillspeed and you can definitely see that the stats aren't all used.

All of this is why I don't believe in Melee Gloves.

[Kaixin]

Next we should have an argument about macros, followed by one about fracture. Running out of things to discuss. Can 2.2 come any sooner?

The true reason SS is king is the following: the more SS you have, the more fluid your karate.

[Tsutsumiko]

Next we should have an argument about macros, followed by one about fracture. Running out of things to discuss. Can 2.2 come any sooner?

The true reason SS is king is the following: the more SS you have, the more fluid your karate.

Don't forget that people will start asking what the BiS list too.

/headdesk

[Icarian]

That's what happens when there's nothing to talk about, still. I see those numbers getting thrown all the time and I still have a hard time believing that, if anything just because of what I said, any piece with determination on it would be better than other without determination no matter what the other stats are... It doesn't feel right.

[Fondue]

I have all 3 and fuma body does more damage

did i help

[StUfF]

Oh God, here we go again for the THIRD time in this thread:

There's no way in hell EasyMode's stat weights are correct. If this was the case, Fuma Komoro would literally destroy both the Melee Cyclas and the Allagan Striking Body. Having owned all 3 pieces and parsed all 3 pieces, there is no way it is correct. That alone should disprove that his weights are correct.

Assuming that Determination scales linearly (which as far as I know it does), you can compute Determination vs. Strength on Training Dummies over the course of several hours. I did this and came up with something that suggests a spread of 5.5~7 Determination was equal to 1 Strength. So that's two ways I now know his stat weights are incorrect.

Then you look at what Judai was saying about the Skillspeed and you can definitely see that the stats aren't all used.

All of this is why I don't believe in Melee Gloves.

Following the stat weights (disregarding accuracy). The Fuma only beats out the Allagan by less than 1 stat weight (1 str). For you to notice a difference in the two would require many many data points to eliminate randomness. In any case where accuracy is a factor Allagan wins outright. I'm not sure why you think Fuma destroys Allagan.

All the numbers and data points that support the formula are all documented if you can find any error in the formula or testing process or have numbers that contradict the current findings show them! Improving our understanding of this game and it's mechanic is why I'm here. These stat weightings are relatively new as well, maybe you have them confused with older ones? Weightings are also high subjective on what gear you are wearing these stat weights are more weighted to full ilvl90 equivalent stats.

Regarding SKS, assuming that the UI is right (it could be incorrect display or just be rounding shenanigans), the melee gloves are actually substantially better than the allagan gloves for my own current set-up since it hits two of the breakpoints putting it's worth way above allagan gloves. Breakpoints are not a reason to not disregard SKS, it's a reason to more closely evaluate your gear.

[Obsidian]

The benefit of skill speed is severely mitigated in any fight where you will be missing GCDs due to battle mechanics. Which is basically any fight.

[Judai]

Regarding SKS, assuming that the UI is right (it could be incorrect display or just be rounding shenanigans), the melee gloves are actually substantially better than the allagan gloves for my own current set-up since it hits two of the breakpoints putting it's worth way above allagan gloves. Breakpoints are not a reason to not disregard SKS, it's a reason to more closely evaluate your gear.

The fact that it hits 2 breakpoints doesn't make it WAY better, it makes it barely better if you srsly value sks that much. Hitting 2 break points nets you your 23 stats points, as opposed to Allagan's 21.

[Seravi Edalborez]

The benefit of skill speed is severely mitigated in any fight where you will be missing GCDs due to battle mechanics. Which is basically any fight.

One could argue that if you had enough skillspeed to milk one more hit in a given situation where a non-speed user would have been stuffed, it validated itself. Though can't think of many situations where it would matter to that great of an extent.

[StUfF]

The fact that it hits 2 breakpoints doesn't make it WAY better, it makes it barely better if you srsly value sks that much. Hitting 2 break points nets you your 23 stats points, as opposed to Allagan's 21.

Depends on how you look at it.
If we are looking specifically at a direct item by item comparison, let's say before I get the gloves I'm 5 points away from hitting a breakpoint, I have 11 SKS equipped that is not doing anything, by equipping the gloves I'm putting those 11 points to use otherwise if I didn't. If I equipped the Allagan gloves I still have that 11 wasted SKS. So in a direct comprison I'm gaining another additional 11 SKS "activating" it from gear I have.

Since we don't don't have any concrete information on how CRIT power works for CRIT %, isn't there a likelihood that CRIT also works on similar breakpoints that we can't actually see? I believe DET has been tested point for point but it's impossible to do the same for CRIT.

Obsidian - Due to monk mechanics you really don't need many chained GCD before you see a difference, Monk are really the only job where SKS is even comparable to any stats because of our innate increased attack speed.

In my current regular gear set I run 63 SKS.
The additional SKS means my GCD at 3xGL is
2.07 vs regular 2.16
0.09

I only need 24 consecutive GCD to ensure a additional attack compared to 0 SKS. This is assuming worst case scenario where the combat stops right after the 2.16GCD hits his last attack. In a 30 second fight I can get in 14 GCD whilst no SKS will have 13 GCD in the same time. In a 15 second fight I can get in 7 GCD whilst 0 SKS can fit in 6. In a 16 second combat scenario you both get 7 GCD. 50~ seconds of combat uptime guarantee a GCD but you can get one even if combat stops earlier.

[Elcura]

One could argue that if you had enough skillspeed to milk one more hit in a given situation where a non-speed user would have been stuffed, it validated itself. Though can't think of many situations where it would matter to that great of an extent.

Most TP breaks last long as shit. Is 1 extra GCD on top of 3+ lost worth it?

[Judai]

Since we don't don't have any concrete information on how CRIT power works for CRIT %, isn't there a likelihood that CRIT also works on similar breakpoints that we can't actually see? I believe DET has been tested point for point but it's impossible to do the same for CRIT.

iirc Crit was tested and it's around 14 crit for 1% but I find it hard to believe that crit would be based on breakpoints, and DET it the only broken non-breakpoint stat. Crit also works on auto-attacks, which leaves sks alone as the only stat that does nothing on a good chunk of your dmg.

[Jeho]

Next we should have an argument about macros, followed by one about fracture. Running out of things to discuss. Can 2.2 come any sooner?

The true reason SS is king is the following: the more SS you have, the more fluid your karate.

Starting to see different thoughts/opinions elsewhere regarding the viability of fracture due to the high TP cost not worth the benefit of using it.
With that said, is it no longer a mandatory weaponskill that every MNK should have and use on a consistent basis?

[Seravi Edalborez]

It's good (220 pot beats out a lot of MNK's attacks) but it's the first thing you drop when TP is getting scarce.

[Kaixin]

OK, so actual content time. Some Monk quirks/tips, maybe you guys have thoughts about them/how to exploit them:

Quirk: Sometimes when using Shoulder Tackle in a macro, the gapcloser will go off but will do no damage and does not go on cooldown. ???

Quirk: Demolish has a long animation and Fracture/ToD have nearly instant ones. Does this affect anything? Fit in two instants somehow?

Tip: Macro to switch between Fists of Fire and Earth in one button--works with PLD Oaths too:
/ac "Fists of Fire"
/ac "Fists of Earth"

Tip: If your PB opener is [GCDs only for clarity] DoT-(PB)-Demo-Snap-DK-TS-Snap, depending on SKS if you PB too early while the GCD is rolling from your opening DoT you won't have enough time to Snap. Waiting like .3 seconds to hit PB ensures that extra time to input SP before PB ends but does not delay the GCD.

[Cutriss]

Quirk: Sometimes when using Shoulder Tackle in a macro, the gapcloser will go off but will do no damage and does not go on cooldown. ???

I see this on occasion outside of macros.

[gaogaostegosaurus]

I see this on occasion outside of macros.

I don't use a macro for Tackle and I see this as well.

Also, sometimes I periodically dash into a rock or something, stun the mob, but am still hella far away. And CD gets eaten. So I think if the stun connects the cooldown triggers. Also, incredibly annoying.

[Seravi Edalborez]

It's easy to conceptualize if you've ever tried to use a WS on a kited or moving target (say, Titan after Geocrush and walking back to tank):

1) You press (whatever) button. A snapshot of your current position's frontal cone is drawn.
2) Brief delay while server sends your position, during which the mob can still move.
3) Receive server's pass/fail response; if it left your frontal cone by this time, your end of the animation plays up to that point only on your screen. Then the rest is cancelled and nobody else sees you really did anything.

It's a bit more rare for Shoulder Tackle because the hit/outtarange check is pretty quick, but this is the basic gist of it.

A good way to get a mental picture of it is to use Flash while moving. The ball doesn't move from where you used it from.

[Jeho]

Is this a fairly accurate BiS chart for MNKs to aim for? I'm only ilvl 71 at the moment but I'm reluctant to get melee cyclas over fuma komoro and really want to get the best combo of gear until I'm ready for coil runs with my FC.
I also am not completely sold on the benefits of going balls to the walls with skill speed and I would prefer to stack determination, crit hit, or acc over it but I can see how it benefits lowering cooldown timers on weaponskills if high enough.

Thanks!

http://www.ffxivguild.com/ffxiv-monk...me-gear-guide/

[vrumpt]

I've seen that before and lol'd. You don't want too much skill speed or you'll get TP starved. Also skill speed doesn't have any effect on auto attack which is a significant portion of dps.

On phone so I can't link to the set right now, but the general consensus on BiS for t5 right now is full Allagan, with exception of melee pants and ifrit wrist. 1 ring, earring and choker will be of maiming. That set puts you at acc cap and basically all det and crit and like 15 points of skill speed I think. Outside coil you could swap some acc pieces for other stuff.

This of course gets thrown out in 2 weeks with 2.2 so just upgrade to whatever at this point.