Pugilist/monk discussion

[Kaixin]

On the one hand, why not PB right off the bat? On the other hand, by delaying PB ~1.5 seconds you can fit in at least a raw Fracture's worth of damage, and the back bonus for Demolish. Hmmm...it's probably worth it.

Raw ToD + buffed ToD = 613 potency
Raw Fracture + buffed ToD = 563 potency

My thinking is it's all about how much uptime you can get on that buffed TOD. Getting to my first TOD ~18 seconds earlier is worth it IMO. I can also have B4B/IR up earlier as well.

[Obsidian]

My thinking is Damage/TP is all that matters, because you will end up starved at the end of that fight regardless unless you have two bards, and even if you do, Fracture is a waste of TP.

[vrumpt]

There was a point in time I had lower skill speed and altered my PB Rotation to use 3rd GL move 4th, because 5th PB barely hit and losing 3rd GL wasn't worth it. I've since found that doing it this way is safer in case something wrong happens and you miss up to a GCD worth of time during PB, you're left with 1 less debuff rather than 1 less GL stack that will fall off before you can get it back up again. This basically covers your ass in most scenarios and is the smarter way to utilize PB imo.

PB (start at back)
Demo
B4B (weave, move to flank)
Snap Punch
IR (weave)
Twins
Howling Fist (weave, move to rear)
Demo (Buffed this time, still more damage than a 1 off snap punch even clipping it)
Steel Peak (weave, move to flank)
Dragon Kick
PB falls off
ToD (move to rear)
Bootshine
True Strike (move to flank)
Snap Punch (move to rear again) (should be last GCD before GL falls off)
Fracture (If you use fracture any sooner GL falls off)

then its rear > flank combo again, playing as normal.

Also, you should be using fracture.... If you aren't using fracture then you must be using impulse drive, saving a whole 10 TP. Woohooo... If you aren't using either, then you're clipping your fully buffed abilities or are sitting around doing nothing and are bad. The only time I ever use Impulse drive is the rare occasion where the planets align and i'm ready to refresh Demo but have 6ish seconds left on my lowest debuff.

[Obsidian]

Also, you should be using fracture.... If you aren't using fracture then you must be using impulse drive, saving a whole 10 TP. Woohooo... If you aren't using either, then you're clipping your fully buffed abilities or are sitting around doing nothing and are bad. The only time I ever use Impulse drive is the rare occasion where the planets align and i'm ready to refresh Demo but have 6ish seconds left on my lowest debuff.

Three combos per Demo isn't rocket science, Fracture is a massive TP drain and a negligible DPS increase at the best of times. Impulse Drive is garbage and if you're using it you should cancel your subscription.

[vrumpt]

Three combos per Demo isn't rocket science, Fracture is a massive TP drain and a negligible DPS increase at the best of times. Impulse Drive is garbage and if you're using it you should cancel your subscription.

It does more than you think, this isn't a shitty BLM class where you're looking for high crit numbers to get a chubby on. Every fight but t8 has more than enough downtime between phases to negate any TP worries too, especially in second coil when you aren't always on the boss to use your insta-moves in which case all dots are better no questions asked, including fracture.

[Kaixin]

PB (start at back)
Demo
B4B (weave, move to flank)
Snap Punch
IR (weave)
Twins
Howling Fist (weave, move to rear)
Demo (Buffed this time, still more damage than a 1 off snap punch even clipping it)
Steel Peak (weave, move to flank)
Dragon Kick
PB falls off
ToD (move to rear)
Bootshine
True Strike (move to flank)
Snap Punch (move to rear again) (should be last GCD before GL falls off)
Fracture (If you use fracture any sooner GL falls off)

By using Demo as your fourth PB skill you are clipping the first Demo by a lot and also not taking advantage of the last GL buff. You're using snap punch after PB falls off anyway, why not switch the two? Also, Twins as your 3rd skill means it falls off before your next Twins is up again.

My thinking is Damage/TP is all that matters, because you will end up starved at the end of that fight regardless unless you have two bards, and even if you do, Fracture is a waste of TP.

Every boss in 2.2 besides T8 has forced TP breaks. Obviously T8 requires a different approach.

[Obsidian]

It does more than you think, this isn't a shitty BLM class where you're looking for high crit numbers to get a chubby on. Every fight but t8 has more than enough downtime between phases to negate any TP worries too, especially in second coil when you aren't always on the boss to use your insta-moves in which case all dots are better no questions asked, including fracture.

I'm not going to rewrite what was already stated clearly. TP breaks make no difference (at best. At worst TP breaks don't exist and you're TP starved in three minutes).

[StUfF]

It does more than you think, this isn't a shitty BLM class where you're looking for high crit numbers to get a chubby on. Every fight but t8 has more than enough downtime between phases to negate any TP worries too, especially in second coil when you aren't always on the boss to use your insta-moves in which case all dots are better no questions asked, including fracture.

The maths has been done multiple times, perfect usage of TP is less than 0.5% dps gain even with unlimited TP and complicates your rotation significantly (i.e. you cannot ToD/Fracture is the same rotation or it's a dps loss due to buffs dropping, just having another button/buff to watch and the increased risk of GLx3 dropping when you cannot have 100% uptime on the boss.)

[vrumpt]

The maths has been done multiple times, perfect usage of TP is less than 0.5% dps gain even with unlimited TP and complicates your rotation significantly (i.e. you cannot ToD/Fracture is the same rotation or it's a dps loss due to buffs dropping, just having another button/buff to watch and the increased risk of GLx3 dropping when you cannot have 100% uptime on the boss.)

Complication of rotation isn't an issue anymore. The link obsidian posted was done during 2.1 when BiS had like 15 skill speed or something; now we have way more than that and get skills off way sooner so the issue is needing something else to do with our decreased GCD time. I have no issues with having everything up including fracture with my current gear set and the skill speed I have isn't going away anytime soon.

[Obsidian]

It doesn't matter if you have skill speed or not, the rotation doesn't change and requires flawless execution for a minute DPS gain and significant TP loss. FractureFracture is over 1 potency/TP worse in terms of TP efficiency than Touch of Death (and almost three times less efficient than Demolish). Assuming roughly 350 DPS for most encounters (more in Turn 8, probably 6/7 too) using Fracture perfectly is an increase of less than 2 DPS under ideal conditions.

What you do in your group is no concern of mine, but this Fracture fallacy needs to end, now. It's a plague. Fracture is awful.

[Kaixin]

Relax, my friend. Your anti-Fracture crusade is a noble cause. But surely a Fracture opener beats a ToD opener every time. One Fracture won't doom you to TP starvation.

Edit: EG:

Ignoring fists of fire
Assuming "fully buffed" means DK (non-DOT damage/.9), TwS and GL3 (X*1.37)

ToD start: Raw ToD + buffed ToD ~= 643 potency (at T=60)
Fracture start: Raw Fracture + buffed ToD ~= 593 potency (at T=42)

If we're allowed to fit in another ToD and normalize to T=60:

Raw ToD + buffed ToD ~=643 potency
Raw Fracture + buffed ToD + 6 extra ticks of another buffed ToD ~= 829 potency

Also:

Touch of Death > Perfect Balance > Demolish > Dragon Kick > Snap Punch > Twin Snakes > Demolish > rear combo (Snap Punch)

Same question I ask vrumpt. Why demolish to finish PB and then rear combo into snap? Why not snap to finish PB and rear combo into demolish?

[Obsidian]

Relax, my friend. Your anti-Fracture crusade is a noble cause. But surely a Fracture opener beats a ToD opener every time. One Fracture won't doom you to TP starvation.

Edit: EG:

Ignoring fists of fire
Assuming "fully buffed" means DK (non-DOT damage/.9), TwS and GL3 (X*1.37)

ToD start: Raw ToD + buffed ToD ~= 643 potency (at T=60)
Fracture start: Raw Fracture + buffed ToD ~= 593 potency (at T=42)

If we're allowed to fit in another ToD and normalize to T=60:

Raw ToD + buffed ToD ~=643 potency
Raw Fracture + buffed ToD + 6 extra ticks of another buffed ToD ~= 829 potency

But at 1:30 another ToD will put me at 1013. Your ToD will run out at 1:12 and leave you at 966. I'm not concerned about front-loading my damage, I want it sustained for as long as possible.

Also:



Same question I ask vrumpt. Why demolish to finish PB and then rear combo into snap? Why not snap to finish PB and rear combo into demolish?

Probably does more damage your way initially but things line up nicer for buffs I find, otherwise you'll end up delaying buffs for an entire combo or end up clipping Touch of Death.

[StUfF]

Complication of rotation isn't an issue anymore. The link obsidian posted was done during 2.1 when BiS had like 15 skill speed or something; now we have way more than that and get skills off way sooner so the issue is needing something else to do with our decreased GCD time. I have no issues with having everything up including fracture with my current gear set and the skill speed I have isn't going away anytime soon.

Um. To run Fracture/ToD in the same cycle without dropping buffs you would need less than 1.875GCD. Good luck getter that much skill speed.

[Kaixin]

But at 1:30 another ToD will put me at 1013. Your ToD will run out at 1:12 and leave you at 966. I'm not concerned about front-loading my damage, I want it sustained for as long as possible.

When my ToD runs out at 1:12 I think I'm allowed to put up another ToD. At 1:30, same thing happens here: I'll have a ~6 tick advantage due to my head start on ToD. Forever!

[Nitsuki]

I'm gonna run some tests tonight w/ a target dummy, that video of the mnk that threw 400+ dps w/ glanz and animus really got me thinking into not using fracture. Of course, you gotta factor in xpot/food, but at the same time, the dude's not using fracture.

[shidobu]

delete... lol wrong thread

[Neon_Sea]

If a target has no phase changed is ToD and fracture still a dps increase?

[Obsidian]

When my ToD runs out at 1:12 I think I'm allowed to put up another ToD. At 1:30, same thing happens here: I'll have a ~6 tick advantage due to my head start on ToD. Forever!

The point I was making was that I spend 80 less TP, which as I previously mentioned is the only metric I really care about. If you want that 80 TP back you need to skip a ToD which puts my rotation back in the lead permanently. After 1:30 I'm sitting at 11.26 DPS, you're at 13.3. 80 TP is more valuable to me than 2 DPS.

If a target has no phase changed is ToD and fracture still a dps increase?

Jesus Christ please read at least one of the last 20 posts and turn your brain on. Touch of Death is always a DPS increase. Fracture is a DPS "increase" (less than 2 DPS before breaking 400 DPS) as long as you're not letting buffs (Greased Lightning, Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick) drop because of it, and to do this you must significantly alter your rotation (unless you're Vrumpt and happen to magically have a GCD less than 1.9s).

Edit:

I'm gonna run some tests tonight w/ a target dummy, that video of the mnk that threw 400+ dps w/ glanz and animus really got me thinking into not using fracture. Of course, you gotta factor in xpot/food, but at the same time, the dude's not using fracture.

There were no Fractures used in the making of this parse (my gear is not amazing):

[Kaixin]

it's a ~200 potency advantage just from the opener, virtually for free. all I do is use fracture once and then tod at basically the same rate you do, just starting 12 seconds later. it's not like using fracture once in your PB opener means all the rest of your skills suddenly drain at a faster rate. since it's only the opener that's changed, yes, as the fight goes on the difference becomes smaller (also, don't mix up potency per second with damage per second). Yes after 11 minutes six ticks of touch of death is virtually worthless. But if you want to follow that argument, then let me ask you this: Why would you even touch of death before perfect balance then? if you value tp so much, surely you would never do a raw touch of death at all.

You're not spending 80 less TP. You use touch of death when I use fracture. I use touch of death 18 seconds earlier than your second touch of death. When I use touch of death again you'd be using twin snakes or something. So it's more like 30 less TP, which you would be spending anyway in 18 seconds.

[Obsidian]

Why would you even touch of death before perfect balance then? if you value tp so much, surely you would never do a raw touch of death at all.

Because using any OGCD skill while your GCD is up is lost DPS (and will cost you a second of Perfect Balance time) and your options are limited as far as what abilities you can use. It's either Touch of Death or Fracture, and I think we've both made clear which option we prefer and why.

You consume 80 more TP than I do because your rotation is translated 18 seconds to the right of mine.