Pugilist/monk discussion

[Seravi Edalborez]

I went and did those tests.

I performed 3 different sets of tests with a different set of variables for each set, namely skills and rotation. I performed each test until I was TP starved. Constants were: Equipment, no food buff, no party buff, off gcd skills were used when they came off cooldown every time. I performed 5 tests of each set, averaging out the results of each test and recording average time until TP starved and dps done during that time. The exception was the last set, because ACT decided to mess up my last 2 tests and didn't record them. I was too lazy to redo them, and I'd seen enough anyway so no real loss.


The first set I did was my alternating flank > rear combo rotation, prioritizing dots as they dropped off and using ID whenever I had excessive time for refreshing demolish.
846 total secs, 347314 total damage.
2:49 avg, 69462.8 damage avg, 411 dps avg; 1 invig


The second set I did was the strict execution of the following rotation without any dots whatsoever.
DK TW DM
BS TR SP
DK TW SP
BS TR DM
DK TW SP
BS TR SP

1528 secs, 624418 total,
5:05 avg, 124883.6 damage avg, 409 dps avg, 2 invig


The third set I did was the same order as #2 but with ToD being applied in a prioritized manner whenever it dropped off. It's worth noting B4B came off cooldown towards the end of this test every time which likely skewed numbers a bit. (only 3 tests for this one)
784 secs, 324897 total,
4:21 avg, 108299 damage avg, 414 dps avg, 2 invig


My takeaway is using any dots will only be a dps gain if you aren't going to be dpsing the target you use the dots on for any period of time. This also implies dots will be applied intelligently without letting GL fall off if the downtime is short enough to allow that to happen.

See, now I'm questioning my statement of using it when you're about to break away from a target. Using ToD doesn't really provide any dps gain, just barely making up for the fact that you used that instead of an instant ability. You take a GCD to apply it instead of something better and you need to wait its full 30 second duration to get the full dps potency out of it, whether it's on your current target or not. Where as if you just used another ability in your rotation the dps value would have been delivered in full right then and for a cheaper cost too, and you are 1 GCD closer to refreshing GL.

Soooo, ToD isn't worth using even a little bit.

From a few pages back, any followup discussion on this? Been avoiding throwing ToD or Fracture (latter of which has been discussed to death) on any extended fight where I have to care about TP, and throwing it on when I don't care, but should I bother with ToD still?

[Almalexia]

Got me thinking an SS build would work better without incorporating ToD. Saves a little TP and focuses more on the stuff that can benefit from speed.

[Obsidian]

DK TS SP goes right bottom left but BS TS DE goes right bottom top. glorious bastard.

I did it that way so Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch would still be right > bottom > middle.

Edit: Quoted wrong post by accident.

[Neon_Sea]

Got me thinking an SS build would work better without incorporating ToD. Saves a little TP and focuses more on the stuff that can benefit from speed.

Well I have been trying to test this but do not really have the resources. Plus most people don't give much credence to SS builds and won't bother trying themselves.

[Almalexia]

As Yoshida pointed out in one of the interviews, JPs are pretty hot for SS MNK. Considering the limited number of encounters where TP is threatened - and you're receiving Paeon anyway - plus ToD/Fracture losing ground, the future of MNK is surely in SS.

Makes me wish I didn't shove so much crit materia up my sphere hole already.

[Kiarax]

Been out of the game 6~ months now but might resub if upcoming free weekend hooks me. What's up with ToD/Fracture that's making them "lose ground"? Debating if I wanna be gearing up my MNK or WAR but sounds kinda shitty if MNK is getting simplified for whatever reason. Are new encounters (did t1 coil back then but haven't seen any newer fights) mechanically more interesting for melee DPS or are they all still punching bags with nothing to worry about outside of the occasional tail swipe?

[Kaixin]

Been out of the game 6~ months now but might resub if upcoming free weekend hooks me. What's up with ToD/Fracture that's making them "lose ground"? Debating if I wanna be gearing up my MNK or WAR but sounds kinda shitty if MNK is getting simplified for whatever reason. Are new encounters (did t1 coil back then but haven't seen any newer fights) mechanically more interesting for melee DPS or are they all still punching bags with nothing to worry about outside of the occasional tail swipe?

JAM!

1) Fracture "sucks" because it drains a lot of TP and delays refreshing of DK/TS/GL
2) ToD "sucks" because it drains a lot of TP and potentially delays refreshing of DK/TS/GL
3) fights in second coil are a ton of fun for melee, a lot of movement, target switching, zooming across arenas with gapclosers, and of course punching the keys for gods' sake. wouldn't say it's been simplified at all.

[kisada]

if DK/TS/GL never drop off then TOD is always +dmg compared to a normal combo, isn't it? and at its overall potency it seems like you'd need to get screwed on all three buffs for it to not be worth it, right?

[StUfF]

JAM!

1) Fracture "sucks" because it drains a lot of TP and delays refreshing of DK/TS/GL
2) ToD "sucks" because it drains a lot of TP and potentially delays refreshing of DK/TS/GL

Both Fracture and ToD are DPS gains if you have the TP, but they introduce complexity to your rotation which may not be worth it for really minor gains (0.5%~ Fracture, 1-2%~ ToD), most people still use ToD - most have dropped Fracture.

I'm not sure if it's you've played before/after 2.1 but they've definitely introduced more complexity into the monk by buffing Demolish/Bootshine and TrueStrike (Demolish has back bonus - bootshine and truestrike now do significant amounts of damage forcing you to use them). Reduced cooldown on Shoulder Tackle and pretty much all fights come with adds and movement requirements making them less tank/spank.

[Kiarax]

Yeah outside of a straight nerf I didn't see how they could really fall out of favour. Glad to see it's still just case of either laziness or being strained for TP. I played 2.1 (used Demolish/Bootshine/TS in 2.0 regardless) for a month or so, just couldn't hold my attention since it was still just a case of running coil for 45 mins then not logging in the rest of the week. New stuff and Frontlines is hopefully good enough to be worth putting some time in.

[puppy whirl]

Well I have been trying to test this but do not really have the resources. Plus most people don't give much credence to SS builds and won't bother trying themselves.

With my current MNK gear luck I sit at 483 skill speed. Which for t9 accuracy is realistically as high as you can go. T8 parses the last few weeks have been around the 440/450 mark easily with handling the occasional mine/tether.

I've found that I HAVE to drop ToD after the first couple uses or I will TP starve myself for a couple globals around the 2:30-3:00 mark before my second invigorate becomes available. Without ToD I can last with TP till around the 4min mark.

Of course all of this is only really a problem in t7/8 and most other fights include enough jumps/mechanics that I don't really have TP issues.

[Nitsuki]

Not sure if it was just me or i screwed up, but post patch, my T8 dps (doing pretty much the same exact thing) dropped to like 405-410ish when the week before at the same ilvl, i was breaking 440 w/ no problems. Was something ninja-nerfed? Only thing i could think of was that our tank had an incorrect position and i couldn't properly see the target-circle cuz big ass galka was in front to eat homing missiles and all.

[Icarian]

Trying to upgrade my gear bit since I gave a sand and oil sitting in my inventory, what's the minimum accuracy required for T9 again? I've been doing it with 498 and I haven't missed a single WS from what I can remember but then again I haven't cleared it yet so I don't know if that number goes up in phase 4 or something.

[Nitsuki]

I think it's 509 give or take. I need 3 or 4 sands i believe, still no t9 clear yet, but we're progressing well. I need to spend my 1 day off from work spamming hunts. I can at least net one sand before tuesday. Good progress for me since my next sand will go to my gloam pants/body/legs/belt. Dono where to start first since i have HA body and belt to keep my str up to i110 for the time being.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Unless you hit from the front a lot, might be a bit much

Spoiler: show

[Nitsuki]

I approve of these numbers, ty!

[Maguile]

How is everyone doing their sphairai sphere scrolls here? Im just about to start and want the best possible outcome from it

[Nitsuki]

How is everyone doing their sphairai sphere scrolls here? Im just about to start and want the best possible outcome from it

11acc/33crit/31det

My reason: possible buffer for the next coils, on top of that, crit materia is too expensive and i'm not gonna cry over 11 crit. I'm already killing myself w/ the t4 det.

[Seravi Edalborez]

What's the best way to use PB as a damage cooldown, in fights where there are absolutely no forced GL3-drop breaks (T1/2/6 if they even lasts long enough, most of 7, 8, Ramuh EX mostly)? Thinking something like

Snap/Demo (PB) > Boot > Boot > Boot > Snap/Demo > DK
or True instead of Boot.

[Rehn]

How is everyone doing their sphairai sphere scrolls here? Im just about to start and want the best possible outcome from it

Crit+44, det+31.