Pugilist/monk discussion

[zenebatos]

Isn't fracture a dps increase when used properly though? From everything I've read it seems like most people are against because of the high tp cost for low gains, but an increase in dps is still an increase. Pretty sure there are plenty of situations where using fracture will result in and increase in dps.

[Obsidian]

It's a ~1% increase at best, at the cost of royally fucking up your rotation and TP starving you in ~2 minutes. It's bad, if you use it you're bad.

[zenebatos]

I'm sorry, where was the part in my post about asking for a tp efficient rotation or stating that I let my other shit fall off to make sure I can get fracture refreshed before it falls off? I stated I had 490 dps over a 3 minute window, the only reason it would be low because of fracture would be because I was fucking up the rotation trying to fit it in. Which I am not seeing as how I hit right around the same number without using fracture.

I understand the problems and limits of fracture. I'm asking how to maximize my dps over a 3 minute time span where tp isn't a concern. Even without the fracture part you aren't providing much insight or help. Of course it isn't sustainable dps increase but it's pretty simple to just not push the button once I've got my rotation working smoothly. Thank you for your generalizations but would you kindly shove off?

[StUfF]

Opener - Try
Demolish - Snap - DK - Twin - Snap - ToD - Frac
With enough SS you can do this and then put ToD/Frac in with all your CDs up without GLx3 dropping or DK .

If I do notice that Bootshine will be my last attack while IR is up I'll occasionally stick a Fracture ahead instead - if you have a DK monk then you should never fracture - I believe fracture is a dps loss no matter what because of the increases average potency your regular cycle goes through (replacing dk with bootshine).

re: proper usage of Fracture. With Skill Speeds possible in the previous patch the only valid way of using Fracture in a rotation was to use it alternatively with ToD so that you only use one every 2 GL cycle i.e. (only fracture or ToD once between DK/Twin buffs so they don't drop off). With additional skill-speed I don't know if this is the same but probably is (you probably don't want to gear that much skill speed anyway). Given monk GCD is significantly lower than BRD/SMN, I don't believe there is a good reason to refresh ToD/Frac at <3 seconds - at 3 seconds you still have time to use another skill then refresh before it drops off (different for Demolish given it's requirements), you probably only want to refresh when its under 2~ seconds.

In fights where you don't have enough put fracture into a rotation, you can still use it in the above style when you have CDs available (IR/b4b).

Realistically though all this effort isn't really worth it, we're talking about less than 1% (saw some maths that suggested approximately 0.6%) potency gain when executed perfectly. In any situation that might cause DK/Twin/GLx3 to drop (ANY potential downtime from boss) or TP to run dry (most FCOB) - it's drop in dps.

490-500~ was the max dummy dps you could do in ilvl110 gear - but I think that was with food and buffs, I don't think you'll be able to optimise much further or you are simply at mercy of RNG.

[Obsidian]

I'm sorry, where was the part in my post about asking for a tp efficient rotation or stating that I let my other shit fall off to make sure I can get fracture refreshed before it falls off? I stated I had 490 dps over a 3 minute window, the only reason it would be low because of fracture would be because I was fucking up the rotation trying to fit it in. Which I am not seeing as how I hit right around the same number without using fracture.

I understand the problems and limits of fracture. I'm asking how to maximize my dps over a 3 minute time span where tp isn't a concern. Even without the fracture part you aren't providing much insight or help. Of course it isn't sustainable dps increase but it's pretty simple to just not push the button once I've got my rotation working smoothly. Thank you for your generalizations but would you kindly shove off?

I mean, this should tell you all you need to know about Fracture:

I hit right around the same number without using fracture.

You can be "pretty sure" about there being plenty of situations where Fracture is a DPS increase (there aren't), but if being "pretty sure" translates into being a snarky jackass towards anyone who attempts to enlighten you, I don't see why you bothered asking for help.

[Elcura]

Way I see people are being assholes no matter what side of the fracture debate they're on. The main downside of Fracture (and ToD) is that it'll eat your TP like no tomorrow and considering how TP dry I am during final coil without Fracture I can't imagine doing better with it.

[Eidle]

speaking of TP draining, i was in a shiva farm party with a monk who asked for army's paeon after adds because he was getting TP starved. he got berated for not managing his TP properly, and that he needs to stop using his abilities so often(wtf?), the bard was flat out refusing saying he shouldnt need to use his TP song, and that it would lower his dps. then they kicked him from the group, i didnt have act running so i dont know if the monk was doing amazing dps or not.

whats your opinion on situations like this? do you people who do progression encounters have a bard(if you have one in the group) use TP song just so a monk doesnt run dry or do your monks just deal with it?

[Grey Jorildyn]

It can happen. Progression almost always includes a bard for what they bring to the table. A good bard knows when to use Paeon tactfully.

Hard to say in your case. There's not enough evidence to go on that the monk was bad or using tp improperly or whatever. My guess is going overboard on aoes during add phase, draining more tp than is probably necessary. In that case running paeon during diamond dust is ideal since you can't dps while frozen anyway. That's an example of tactful use.

[zenebatos]

490-500~ was the max dummy dps you could do in ilvl110 gear - but I think that was with food and buffs, I don't think you'll be able to optimise much further or you are simply at mercy of RNG.

Ah thank you for the input and the benchmark. I'll have to watch for that last IR GCD and see how that works. Glad to see I'm on the right track at least. Good point on the dot refreshing, I'll have to watch myself closer on that point. I run with a ninja and bard so between the goads and Invigorates I can squeeze in a fracture here and there and last until we play some paeon for our tanks. Still a couple of good points in turn 10 and fewer in 11 where you can throw one up.

but if being "pretty sure" translates into being a snarky jackass towards anyone who attempts to enlighten you, I don't see why you bothered asking for help.

You weren't telling me anything I didn't already know though. You were just assuming fracture was my problem when it obviously isn't. You provided no input on what kind of dps numbers would be a good benchmark for that level of gear and time. No input on if I was messing up my opener or need to use my buffs at a different point. You made a lazy post that I've read several times on this thread already. You could have easily said something along the lines of yeah 490 is low, I've seen an average of 510 with that setup. Your rotation looks fine on paper, are you sure fracture isn't causing you to mess up the rotation? But you didn't, you made an assumption and then resorted to calling me bad. So yeah, I'm going to be a snarky jackass when you make an assumption and call me bad.

[Seravi Edalborez]

speaking of TP draining, i was in a shiva farm party with a monk who asked for army's paeon after adds because he was getting TP starved. he got berated for not managing his TP properly, and that he needs to stop using his abilities so often(wtf?), the bard was flat out refusing saying he shouldnt need to use his TP song, and that it would lower his dps. then they kicked him from the group, i didnt have act running so i dont know if the monk was doing amazing dps or not.

whats your opinion on situations like this? do you people who do progression encounters have a bard(if you have one in the group) use TP song just so a monk doesnt run dry or do your monks just deal with it?

Sounds like a good fucking MNK if they were doing Rockbreaker spam, however I usually stop after 500 when my Invig is gone (in other words, shortly after my PB if I'm doing PB Rockbreakers) because I don't count on Paeon or Goad.

[Icarian]

whats your opinion on situations like this? do you people who do progression encounters have a bard(if you have one in the group) use TP song just so a monk doesnt run dry or do your monks just deal with it?

We have a BRD (who doesn't?) and whenever I ask for Paeon he just does it, having a TP starved MNK is worse than having the BRD doing 20% less dmg for a few seconds.

As for the MNK being running out of TP during adds, I don't know, I've never ran out of TP during the adds phase spamming Rock breaker but I've come close, still, with diamond dust's break there's enough time to regen a couple hundred TP, which allows me to last the whole fight without running out of it, but I can see running out of TP during adds if the party's DPS is on the low side and they're up for a long time. Anyway, the people that kicked him were jerks, if a MNK can get himself out of TP during the adds phase the DPS is low and it isn't (most likely) the MNK's fault.

[ryuuken]

if the monk was getting that starved from the short add phase and not recovering enough while getting frozen from diamond dust (which should give enough ticks to hold them over til next invig), that could mean a couple of things

1) throwing fracture around left and right
2) touch of death on every single add
3) using arm of the destroyer

probably most likely that it was #3, which is pretty terrible overall. skill sucks balls, and costs so much

but either way, a bard refusing to use paeon because he wants to do big dick dps - just as worthy of a kick as a monk using arm of the destroyer + rockbreaker to 0

[Obsidian]

It's trivial to PB Rockbreaker yourself empty on the adds. You don't stay frozen long enough to regain all your TP.

Bards who won't Paeon are useless. Your damage isn't worth forcing the MNK/DRG to sit there and wait on TP ticks. MNK/DRG can't "deal with it", they either sit there doing one action every three seconds until Invigorate is back up, or they just AFK until they have enough TP to last longer than twenty seconds.

You weren't telling me anything I didn't already know though. You were just assuming fracture was my problem when it obviously isn't. You provided no input on what kind of dps numbers would be a good benchmark for that level of gear and time. No input on if I was messing up my opener or need to use my buffs at a different point. You made a lazy post that I've read several times on this thread already. You could have easily said something along the lines of yeah 490 is low, I've seen an average of 510 with that setup. Your rotation looks fine on paper, are you sure fracture isn't causing you to mess up the rotation? But you didn't, you made an assumption and then resorted to calling me bad. So yeah, I'm going to be a snarky jackass when you make an assumption and call me bad.

You asked if Fracture was a DPS increase, I said barely, you got mad. End of story.

[Detzu]

speaking of TP draining, i was in a shiva farm party with a monk who asked for army's paeon after adds because he was getting TP starved. he got berated for not managing his TP properly, and that he needs to stop using his abilities so often(wtf?), the bard was flat out refusing saying he shouldnt need to use his TP song, and that it would lower his dps. then they kicked him from the group, i didnt have act running so i dont know if the monk was doing amazing dps or not.

whats your opinion on situations like this? do you people who do progression encounters have a bard(if you have one in the group) use TP song just so a monk doesnt run dry or do your monks just deal with it?

I use invigorate just before the adds spawn then when they are gathered I'm using PB + rockbreaker spam. I never asked for tp.
Edit : Could be because I play with awesome BRDs that Paon on adds.

[StUfF]

I use invigorate just before the adds spawn then when they are gathered I'm using PB + rockbreaker spam. I never asked for tp.
Edit : Could be because I play with awesome BRDs that Paon on adds.

Bards should need Paeon for themselves - they should be aoeing and multidotting adds which kill their own TP.

[Niiro]

You spend so much time standing around for Diamond Dust I don't see why.

[Elcura]

At a normal pace you should only run out of TP during adds if you push AoE damage after PB Rockbreaker spam by continuing to do Arm. My TP drainage depends on the party DPS and whether I see Paeon up or not. If the BRD is bad they won't Paeon and you can easily adjust.

Just sounds like bads being bad and making excuses.

[Obsidian]

There's no reason to not Paeon while everyone is waiting around for Diamond Dust anyway.

[SamanosukeShiva]

Saw a post on reddit, says MNK can do 620 DPS on T11, I can see it somewhat being plausible at ilvl120+ w/ double MNK + BRD/NIN, but have ppl actually done it or is this even real?

[Kaope]

620 DPS on the whole fight? I doubt it tbh. Need to check his lodestone profile to see his gears first.