Something lost when making game so easy/accommodating?

[Gokulo]

I imported XI when it came out in NA, but during my playtime there weren't many English speaking people on. Most of my exping experience on my first job were Japanese parties where the only communication was {Hello!} {Where?} {Skillchain} {What?}

[Lucavi]

I also forgot that some XI'ers don't consider vent a form of communication: you know, the kind of communication that frees your hands up so that you can actually focus on making sure you're hitting a solid amount of DPS instead of sitting there jiggling in place while you type. I suppose when we were Drks back in 2004 waiting 50 seconds to gain 100% TP for a WS, yeah, there was plenty of time to type type type.

I'm glad those days are over.

[Ksandra]

I don't think theres a single party i joined in FFXI that lasted more than 15 minutes where people did not begin to converse or talk about something, or just idle chitchat and discussion... Some form of topic conversation.

So its not like FFXI Was the golden age of interaction, it just had more forced socialization,

I don't disagree with some of your points (combat speed does make you less likely to want you to talk), but I don't see how slow combat makes "forced" socialization.

I think that's my biggest issue about some of the posters in this thread. They feel like ffxi forced you to make friends and ffxiv doesn't. When I just don't see that comparison. No one forced you to do chit chat in parties. Hell, sometimes it was just nice to pop in a movie and let your brain die while casting the same few abilities over and over again.


And honestly, once ventrilo became a common thing, I don't think I ever socialized much in pts anyways, because it was a lot easier to chew the fat with lsmates on vent even if they weren't in my pt.

[Deadgye]

Wait, we're counting XP parties as communication in XI? You mean, "distortion to blizzard or freeze" levels of communication ala 4/2004, AKA when I bought the game and began playing? I communicate more than that today using the DF in dungeon runs.

I figured we were eschewing obvious, brain-dead forms of "communication", but if you want to cater to the lowest common denominator, then sure, that's communication.

This is the stuff that just hurts your posts. You ignore what I mentioned and then state this stuff like if you say this is how it happened then it's got to be the only way it happened. If other people have a rose-tinted glass, then you've got a shit-tinted one. If what I described could only be to you what you'd call "brain-dead" then 90%+ of my chat experience in xiv so far has been worse than brain dead.

I do the same "communication" now that I did then - bullshitting with my party and my LS while grinding out the lesser of enjoyable things. You call "communicating" with your party during a grinding session of crabs at the dunes somehow more of a thing than "communicating" with your party during a grinding session in Brayflops? Why? What's the difference aside from Flops having actual pulls that are sometimes communicated, boss fights that are communicated and gear drops that are sometimes communicated. Why does XI's consist of more "mandatory" communication than ARR's?

Of course people talked in XI. Jesus. Don't be so literal. But the purists are attempting to cover both entire games with a massive paintbrush: XI as this wonderful world of communication and strategy and ARR as a brain-dead button mash devoid of any form of spoken word. I'm simply calling bullshit.

It doesn't do you any good to call bullshit when your remembrances are clearly prejudice or warped. How did you form the party without talking. How did you move to a camp without talking. etc. These small interactions were required and served as an ice breaker, leading directly to more open conversations with people you were likely to see again. Being anti-social in XI was hard to pull off.

Compare directly to my most recent run through Manor in which everyone said "Hello" at the start and then never talked again until we died to the final boss. We then simply said "I'll get the right lamps", "I'll get the left lamps then", "Make sure you stay out of the bomb's explosion radius." There was little incentive to talk. I don't know who these people are and I'm likely to never see them again. There was virtually no downtime for chit chat because it was a quick instanced dungeon run. There's nothing stopping everyone from being anti-social.

Counter to that, if you simply make the effort to break the ice then usually everybody will be social with you. If someone is actually actively complaining about stuff not being social enough then they probably aren't making any effort on their part. My favorite social dungeon experience with randoms so far was Tam-Tara which I did with only two other people. We talked so much because we wiped, had plenty of down time, and were doing things weirdly because we only had 3 people.

Once again, I don't think I'm on either side of this argument you're having. It's just that you are so blatantly prejudice against XI that anybody with an objective look at things can smell it from miles away.

I also forgot that some XI'ers don't consider vent a form of communication: you know, the kind of communication that frees your hands up so that you can actually focus on making sure you're hitting a solid amount of DPS instead of sitting there jiggling in place while you type. I suppose when we were Drks back in 2004 waiting 50 seconds to gain 100% TP for a WS, yeah, there was plenty of time to type type type.

I'm glad those days are over.

Anybody who thinks that is silly lol. I haven't spent a day on xiv that I wasn't on a mumble server. It's a shame you can't easily voice chat with randoms though. Sometimes though it hurts me, because I'll be talking with my friends instead of trying to be social with the randoms I'm with.

[Intense]

I'm a pretty social person in parties, but idk it seems like when I play WAR, I have little time to chit chat while tanking (although while were moving I might say stuff or emote at a party member). Things are a bit faster pace than in XI, so my fingers are usually pretty busy, so anything other than strategy stuff, I really don't chat in party or even to my ls.

I would hope other people are kinda too busy doing stuff/paying attention to talk about anything really...

[Lucavi]

This is the stuff that just hurts your posts. You ignore what I mentioned and then state this stuff like if you say this is how it happened then it's got to be the only way it happened. If other people have a rose-tinted glass, then you've got a shit-tinted one. If what I described could only be to you what you'd call "brain-dead" then 90%+ of my chat experience in xiv so far has been worse than brain dead.

Thank your for your opinion, but it means little to me whether you think something "hurt" or "heals" my posts. I'm sorry your chat experience is brain-dead. Mine is not. I'm having one hell of a time "communicating" with people in /ls, /fc, /p, /r, vent, TS, and Skype.

It doesn't do you any good to call bullshit when your remembrances are clearly prejudice or warped. How did you form the party without talking. How did you move to a camp without talking. etc. These small interactions were required and served as an ice breaker, leading directly to more open conversations with people you were likely to see again. Being anti-social in XI was hard to pull off.

How did I form a party without talking? I didn't, but I didn't form every party I was in. If you're going to consider me saying "yes, I'll party with you" and "yes, we can camp there" a form of "good ol' XI classic communication that AAR just so sorely lacks, then yes, you can have your point.

Compare directly to my most recent run through Manor in which everyone said "Hello" at the start and then never talked again until we died to the final boss. We then simply said "I'll get the right lamps", "I'll get the left lamps then", "Make sure you stay out of the bomb's explosion radius." There was little incentive to talk. I don't know who these people are and I'm likely to never see them again. There was virtually no downtime for chit chat because it was a quick instanced dungeon run. There's nothing stopping everyone from being anti-social.

I'm so sorry that your manor run was silent. My run, yesterday, with Silverbreeze, was not. We talked throughout the entire run and spent half the time /laugh emoting as we did destroying bosses and getting her clear. Once again, my apologies for your loss in terms of communication. Lets make a thread about how ARR lacks that "special something" with communication because you had a quiet run.

Counter to that, if you simply make the effort to break the ice then usually everybody will be social with you. If someone is actually actively complaining about stuff not being social enough then they probably aren't making any effort on their part. My favorite social dungeon experience with randoms so far was Tam-Tara which I did with only two other people. We talked so much because we wiped, had plenty of down time, and were doing things weirdly because we only had 3 people.

Tell that to the people that need to hear it, not to me. I'm plenty social, as are my runs.

Once again, I don't think I'm on either side of this argument you're having. It's just that you are so blatantly prejudice against XI that anybody with an objective look at things can smell it from miles away.

Its not Anti-XI. I loved XI for what it was. I do not love purists lamenting over anything and everything in 2013 not being the way it was in 2004. I'm sorry you can't grasp that, but that's on you.

Anybody who thinks that is silly lol. I haven't spent a day on xiv that I wasn't on a mumble server. It's a shame you can't easily voice chat with randoms though. Sometimes though it hurts me, because I'll be talking with my friends instead of trying to be social with the randoms I'm with.

You clearly haven't read this thread, then, as none of these XI purists have made any mention of any form of voiced chat.

I seriously hope these XI purists are so willing to chat in /p during Hard mode and extreme mode fights, especially while tanking. Its oh so much fun having your character bobbing in place like in XI when you need split-second reactions to not cause a wipe.

[Artifact]

You must be getting lucky with Duty Finder Lucavi. Whenever I join Duty Finder and say hello, I'm 1/3 at best on a response. Then there will be ignorant fools who have one job at level 40 without any actions unlocked, who will tell me I cannot keep hate/tank. Usually it comes from a MNK wearing all STR gear, hitting sleeping mobs (Mobs shouldn't have been slept either...). I try to communicate with them, but they just run around like rabid animals in duty finder. At that point, the attitude and game play of the person(s) is so intolerable that I don't want to see them again.

Haha, I'm just being real. But it creates good stories for LS mates.

[ronin sparthos]

I don't disagree with some of your points (combat speed does make you less likely to want you to talk), but I don't see how slow combat makes "forced" socialization.

I think that's my biggest issue about some of the posters in this thread. They feel like ffxi forced you to make friends and ffxiv doesn't. When I just don't see that comparison. No one forced you to do chit chat in parties. Hell, sometimes it was just nice to pop in a movie and let your brain die while casting the same few abilities over and over again.


And honestly, once ventrilo became a common thing, I don't think I ever socialized much in pts anyways, because it was a lot easier to chew the fat with lsmates on vent even if they weren't in my pt.

When you're doing a 2-4hr Colibri party, you bet that conversation is going to start over whatever people felt like talking about. These long EXP sessions forced communication in linkshell, in party or with friends LFP/LFM partying themselves because there was so much downtime or repetition that you had room to talk and talk alot. When it wasn't in EXP, it was someone out soloing, doing trials, camping an NM, fishing, skilling up etc etc etc. See the pattern? Long, drawn out events with huge amounts of downtime.

XIV doesn't have this because you can play the game as you would a single player game sans the few mandatory dungeons or endgame. There just isn't enough downtime to strike up a decent conversation other than minimalist chatter or complaining about strategy. You don't have EXP parties, you don't have skillup, you don't have NM camps and everything is so fast paced that talking is time not dodging red rings of death. There really isn't much yet to encourage strangers to become more than just cooperating strangers.

Ventrilo / Teamspeak / Skype became popular in later years of XI as the game started to settle and cliques formed mostly between HNMLS members. For the average player though, you had alot of time to make friends or at least shoot the breeze talking about anything from sports to dating advice. When you spend so much time with people, you can even progress to good friends, RL dating and for the lucky few, marriage.

[Ksandra]

When you're doing a 2-4hr Colibri party, you bet that conversation is going to start over whatever people felt like talking about. These long EXP sessions forced communication in linkshell, in party or with friends LFP/LFM partying themselves because there was so much downtime or repetition that you had room to talk and talk alot. When it wasn't in EXP, it was someone out soloing, doing trials, camping an NM, fishing, skilling up etc etc etc. See the pattern? Long, drawn out events with huge amounts of downtime.

How is that forced? That's just more opportunity.

I did plenty of 6+ hour camp parties and never said a word. Especially as bard because it was the same like 6 actions over and over again. I would just watch tv while doing it. We didn't wipe because I wasn't saying anything. We were still able to complete the kills even though I wasn't saying anything.

You didn't HAVE to talk (what forced means). You just had a lot of opportunity to.

[ronin sparthos]

I also forgot that some XI'ers don't consider vent a form of communication: you know, the kind of communication that frees your hands up so that you can actually focus on making sure you're hitting a solid amount of DPS instead of sitting there jiggling in place while you type. I suppose when we were Drks back in 2004 waiting 50 seconds to gain 100% TP for a WS, yeah, there was plenty of time to type type type.

I'm glad those days are over.

You gonna vent with total strangers? Yeah, most FC that aren't holdovers of ex-*insert MMO here* are made up of PUG-recruited FCs complete with people who don't know eachother. Sure, I'd do it because I'm sociable in MMOs but for the most part people need time to progress from:

FC textspeak -> *hey lets chat on vent* -> *hey friend lets chat on vent* -> *sup you old bastard, lets chat.*

As it stands for a newbie player, there is very little incentive to make friends just yet. It's like standard AOL chat right now where you can take it further if you want but it's by no means necessary until particular endgame raids.

[Ksandra]

As it stands for a newbie player, there is very little incentive to make friends just yet. It's like standard AOL chat right now where you can take it further if you want but it's by no means necessary until particular endgame raids.

And again, that is the same as ffxi.

[ronin sparthos]

How is that forced? That's just more opportunity.

I did plenty of 6+ hour camp parties and never said a word. Especially as bard because it was the same like 6 actions over and over again. I would just watch tv while doing it. We didn't wipe because I wasn't saying anything. We were still able to complete the kills even though I wasn't saying anything.

You didn't HAVE to talk (what forced means). You just had a lot of opportunity to.

You're evoking the time tested BG semantics argument.

When you're partying for 3hrs+ you're practically forced to either start talking or become so bored that your EXP/hr suffers as a result. You could tune out, you could watch TV or you could even automate your actions but for most people it was the equivalent of sitting in a waiting room with nothing to do. It's a situation where most people would strike up conversation.

I'm not talking about the gameplay mechanics or how boring being a PT Bard could be (believe me, I know) but when you're stuck with 5 people, pink birds and 32k tnl you bet I want to know about your pet cat, Spot or how your date last night resulted in no bang bang bang.

[Lucavi]

You must be getting lucky with Duty Finder Lucavi. Whenever I join Duty Finder and say hello, I'm 1/3 at best on a response. Then there will be ignorant fools who have one job at level 40 without any actions unlocked, who will tell me I cannot keep hate/tank. Usually it comes from a MNK wearing all STR gear, hitting sleeping mobs (Mobs shouldn't have been slept either...). I try to communicate with them, but they just run around like rabid animals in duty finder. At that point, the attitude and game play of the person(s) is so intolerable that I don't want to see them again.

Haha, I'm just being real. But it creates good stories for LS mates.

Here's my secret: I don't use the DF unless I have 2 of my own with me, or at least 2 people on a social LS or something. I take pride in my gear and don't want to play with bads, and I don't mind being patient until I can put myself in a position where I don't have to play with bads.

My methods aren't how the majority of people play, and I'm 100% okay with that. Its my own style, and it gets me fantastic results. I have no doubt that bads are out there, but if I can have 3/4 goods, we can do our own thing and let the bad slide along by his/her ankles.

Bads exist in every game, though. People had a choice in XI as well: communicate with the bads or ignore the bads. Its kind of the same here, although you don't know your odds of getting a bad using the DF. That's the price you pay for convenience: you don't have to shout in Jueno anymore (though you can choose to if you wish), but you've got a shot of having a shit-tastic member of your team.

@Rhonin: My question to you (not accusing you of being a purist by any standard) is this: how is what you're describing better than ARR? Better than a 35-minute Haukke run where you get in, get work done, get out, and get back to your day? Better than a solo, small group, or large group FATE-grinding session, giving you EXP, gil and seals (that allow you to buy all sorts of bonuses). How is 6 straight hours of colibri grinding (and that was one of the more fun eras of XP grinding, what with chain 300+), being forced to make conversation out of boredom if nothing else, better than ARR, simply because it promotes a sense of community? And yes, I'm rolling my eyes while saying that last part, because if you take a step back and look at it, it's an absolutely absurd statement. How neckbeard does someone have to be to find those days endearing?

Its not about "hating" anything. Its about rolling your eyes when your grandparents talk about how everything was better in their day, just because.

[Raldo]

And again, that is the same as ffxi.

Lets assume a totally bullshit number like a 0.1% chance to make a friend in a group.

FFXI: Forced to party many many many many many many times, and able to befriend any of them.
FFXIV: Not forced to party at any point with people on your server.

Are you really not seeing the difference here? Sure, you can make friends in any setting, but one has a far greater chance of happening. It's like sending someone to a casino with $10, and another person with $100. You can pretty much guess who's going to come out ahead.

[ronin sparthos]

And again, that is the same as ffxi.

lolwhat? XI forced you make friends to do... ANYTHING. When I first unlocked Samurai, I made two friends who were higher level and helped me finish a quest I couldn't solo when it's offered to me. This happened again at SAM AF2 and during the final AF3 BCNM. This doesn't even mention doing coffer keys and the LS reciprocation of help that resulted in the process. You were forced to either group up and communicate which leads to making friends or having friends carry/assist you. Full stop.

I could run down my friend list and tell you a story of how each person ended on my FL. Each one is a result of either being forced to team up to get something done or the rigors of endgame/LS leadership.

XIV you can do the entire main storyline and treat it like you would playing FFXII with very little conversation or need for other PCs. It's designed to be casual like that and thats fine but lets not pretend that XI didn't basically throw you into a labor camp and force friendship through shared misery/challenge/strife etc.

[Lucavi]

It's designed to be casual like that and thats fine but lets not pretend that XI didn't basically throw you into a labor camp and force friendship through shared misery/challenge/strife etc.

^ Is this better than ARR's system? Lets throw finances and critical acclaim out the window. Strictly speaking of enjoyment of the game you are playing: is this a better system than ARR?

[Raldo]

I like ARR's system better, I just wish it somehow told you what server each character was from, so you could actually try to befriend people who happened to be from the same server. Other ideas such as cross-server friending/communication/etc would be nice. It's basically the system limitations that are cockblocking people from getting to know one another, rather than anything else.

[Ksandra]

Lets assume a totally bullshit number like a 0.1% chance to make a friend in a group.

FFXI: Forced to party many many many many many many times, and able to befriend any of them.
FFXIV: Not forced to party at any point with people on your server.

Are you really not seeing the difference here? Sure, you can make friends in any setting, but one has a far greater chance of happening. It's like sending someone to a casino with $10, and another person with $100. You can pretty much guess who's going to come out ahead.

that casino is the worst example ever. Random odds are random no matter how much you start out with. The guy with 10$ could be a much better poker player.

Can you not see MY point in that saying ffxi is better for focing people to talk in parties when it never foreced people to talk in parties is a terrible assumption to make as an attack on FFXIV?

lolwhat? XI forced you make friends to do... ANYTHING. When I first unlocked Samurai, I made two friends who were higher level and helped me finish a quest I couldn't solo when it's offered to me. This happened again at SAM AF2 and during the final AF3 BCNM. This doesn't even mention doing coffer keys and the LS reciprocation of help that resulted in the process. You were forced to either group up and communicate which leads to making friends or having friends carry/assist you. Full stop.

Those forced you to get into groups (which could be done through shouts) NOT forcing you to make friends with those you grouped up with.

Again, it's increased opportunity, not forced friendship.

You may think it's semantics, but I think if you are going to attack FFXIV for not having something, it better be for something it doesn't actually have.

Also, I find it lol that you are trying to argue in favor of creating boring ass 6+ hour content to make it so people are more likely to talk.
I'll pass on that.

[Raldo]

Again, it's increased opportunity, not forced friendship.

Nobody said it was forced, we're simply saying it was... you know, increased opportunity. Which was my point with the casino metaphor as well. I'm well aware the guy with $10 could be a better poker player friend maker, but the guy with $100 sure has more chances.

[Ksandra]

Nobody said it was forced

XI forced you make friends to do... ANYTHING.

When you're partying for 3hrs+ you're practically forced to either start talking or become so bored that your EXP/hr suffers as a result.

These long EXP sessions forced communication in linkshell,

So its not like FFXI Was the golden age of interaction, it just had more forced socialization,

oh?