Something lost when making game so easy/accommodating?

[ronin sparthos]

@Rhonin: My question to you (not accusing you of being a purist by any standard) is this: how is what you're describing better than ARR? Better than a 35-minute Haukke run where you get in, get work done, get out, and get back to your day? Better than a solo, small group, or large group FATE-grinding session, giving you EXP, gil and seals (that allow you to buy all sorts of bonuses). How is 6 straight hours of colibri grinding (and that was one of the more fun eras of XP grinding, what with chain 300+), being forced to make conversation out of boredom if nothing else, better than ARR, simply because it promotes a sense of community? And yes, I'm rolling my eyes while saying that last part, because if you take a step back and look at it, it's an absolutely absurd statement. How neckbeard does someone have to be to find those days endearing?

I've played quite a few MMOs and I've seen where FFXI went so horribly wrong in the frustrating grind that borders on masochism but where XI did go right was creating a community, something that sorely lacks in the post-WoW, cash shop, churn out as much of the same schlock to make a huge fucking profit. Friends were heaped upon you by circumstance, you knew who the goods and bads were, you had LS rivalries and a commitment to play beyond your own personal gain. It's why I played XI as long as I did. We've seen it all before and we'll no doubt see it again as XIV ages - the same tired, reused, standardized processes that you can call out with your eyes blindfolded. It's the reason that every time a new MMO launches on this site, the hype fizzles out within a year sans the few stragglers that continue to give a fuck.

I don't want XIV to open to fanfare, success and accolades just for a year down the road to see this entire section become like Guild Wars 2, TERA, TOR or Aion before it. A flavor the month MMO you play for 3 months then fuck it, this shit is boring I've capped all my gear and the games crap. I stopped playing GW2 in particular because between the lack of an endgame and no real need to communicate long-term with people I quickly became tired with an overabundance of casual. If XI pushed too hard into hardcore territory, many of these newschool MMO are just too damn casual. There is no weight to anything you do.

Got a legendary? Who gives a fuck, thousands of others have as well.
Capped those crafts? Good for you, 2 days worth of effort and alot of marco polo with merchants and karma vendors.

There was something noble about EXPing in a party and cutting through trash with a small group in a largely non-threatening environment and that could again be a vehicle for fun in this title. It was something other MMOs often discouraged in favor of being able to vaporize shit on your own. No, we don't need the MP resting, the repetitive mob types, the slow as fuck LFP times or the 40min treks out to a camp but there is something to keeping that EXP chain going, venturing with randoms into an unknown and having some time to chat with people that could become FC mates or potential friends.

The year is 2013 and I don't expect Garliage Citadel 2.0 but between FATEs being a rush to place, most of the game being solo or everything being at your fingertips (crafting sup) and dungeons being straightforward or so technical that you have little time to speak it'd be nice to have something relaxing and group-building like an XI EXP party, greater emphasis on guildhests and overall need for your fellow players to matter.

Yoshida has stated that it's on the way but for the moment the social aspect is neutered. I'm hoping RvR sparks some fun competition between FCs and servers because if there is one thing that keeps asses in seats its a good old fashioned competition.

[Raldo]

oh?

Ah, my bad then. I never said it was. Guess I glazed over his posts since he had similar points to my own. I got around in XI just fine without many friends, though I guess that's because I consider LS mates to be mere acquaintances unless we actually did things outside of LS events. It is rather odd to say things were forced. Foot firmly in mouth now.

[Ksandra]

Ah, my bad then. I never said it was. Guess I glazed over his posts since he had similar points to my own. I got around in XI just fine without many friends, though I guess that's because I consider LS mates to be mere acquaintances unless we actually did things outside of LS events. It is rather odd to say things were forced. Foot firmly in mouth now.

Lol it's ok. ^^ But ya, I am not saying there were more opportunities to talk in 11, on that I completely agree. The problem I see, though, is that what caused those opportunities was basically boring content. Sitting around in jeuno waiting 3+ hours for a pt invite, or once in the pt, having the combat be so slow you only hit a button every 30+ seconds or so, and are usually the same few buttons you didn't have to think about it at all.

But, personally, I am glad that's not in 14. Even if 14 became facebook-style and said you need X friends on your FL in order for this quest to open up, it still wouldn't be the same. The overall game community has changed, and I don't think that would bode well for any mmo nowadays.

[Slycer]

While I didn't agree with a lot of the points being made previously, I agree with almost all of the points made by Ronin in his latest post. There are plenty of activities in FFXIV ARR which will have you actively seeking out other players to team up. The problem with these activities is that they are almost invariably high stakes - the kind of events where you'll go with a bunch of random people and one person will fuck up, then someone else will start bitching, etc. There needs to be more low stakes activities, or even just fun mini-game type events, which team you up with other people.

Duty Finder is irrelevant in this regard because it teams you up with people that you will, with fair certainty, never play with again. That's why I'm a huge proponent for cross-server friending, and, maybe down the line, being able to Duty Find with your cross-server friends. That one change would make a gigantic difference in meeting other people who you enjoy playing with, and continuing to play with them in the future. Yeah, it's fine to be social during a Duty Finder event, but haven't we all had experiences by now in Duty Finder where we've played with people who were either really good players or just fun to be around, only to know that after the event's over we'll never see or hear from them again? It's kind of disheartening in a way, and counter-productive to fostering a really social community. I don't know how simple or difficult it would be to allow cross-server friending or messaging, but it seems like a no-brainer for them to do it at some point.

[Lucavi]

I've played quite a few MMOs and I've seen where FFXI went so horribly wrong in the frustrating grind that borders on masochism but where XI did go right was creating a community, something that sorely lacks in the post-WoW, cash shop, churn out as much of the same schlock to make a huge fucking profit. Friends were heaped upon you by circumstance, you knew who the goods and bads were, you had LS rivalries and a commitment to play beyond your own personal gain. It's why I played XI as long as I did. We've seen it all before and we'll no doubt see it again as XIV ages - the same tired, reused, standardized processes that you can call out with your eyes blindfolded. It's the reason that every time a new MMO launches on this site, the hype fizzles out within a year sans the few stragglers that continue to give a fuck.

I don't want XIV to open to fanfare, success and accolades just for a year down the road to see this entire section become like Guild Wars 2, TERA, TOR or Aion before it. A flavor the month MMO you play for 3 months then fuck it, this shit is boring I've capped all my gear and the games crap. I stopped playing GW2 in particular because between the lack of an endgame and no real need to communicate long-term with people I quickly became tired with an overabundance of casual. If XI pushed too hard into hardcore territory, many of these newschool MMO are just too damn casual. There is no weight to anything you do.

Got a legendary? Who gives a fuck, thousands of others have as well.
Capped those crafts? Good for you, 2 days worth of effort and alot of marco polo with merchants and karma vendors.

There was something noble about EXPing in a party and cutting through trash with a small group in a largely non-threatening environment and that could again be a vehicle for fun in this title. It was something other MMOs often discouraged in favor of being able to vaporize shit on your own. No, we don't need the MP resting, the repetitive mob types, the slow as fuck LFP times or the 40min treks out to a camp but there is something to keeping that EXP chain going, venturing with randoms into an unknown and having some time to chat with people that could become FC mates or potential friends.

The year is 2013 and I don't expect Garliage Citadel 2.0 but between FATEs being a rush to place, most of the game being solo or everything being at your fingertips (crafting sup) and dungeons being straightforward or so technical that you have little time to speak it'd be nice to have something relaxing and group-building like an XI EXP party, greater emphasis on guildhests and overall need for your fellow players to matter.

Yoshida has stated that it's on the way but for the moment the social aspect is neutered. I'm hoping RvR sparks some fun competition between FCs and servers because if there is one thing that keeps asses in seats its a good old fashioned competition.

Don't tell me about what you do or do not expect. Tell me about what you want. What do you want in 2013?

@Slycer: If SE ever gets its programming act together, we may very well see some of those things down the line. With just about everything being instanced, it's not an impossibility.

[ronin sparthos]

Don't tell me about what you do or do not expect. Tell me about what you want. What do you want in 2013?

@Slycer: If SE ever gets its programming act together, we may very well see some of those things down the line. With just about everything being instanced, it's not an impossibility.

What I want is a game that feels like an MMO that feels like something worth investing time and effort in with a vibrant community of people who are invested in doing whatever it is we have presented to us under a united (or competitive) banner. Wanna teamup to beat the snowboarding leg of Gold Saucer? Lets do it. Wanna grab 3 friends and do an overworld EXP session to get some x/y/z seals for progression? I'm there with my spellbook in hand. Want to gather some spawn items to bring forth an overworld HNM that requires a full party sans outside interference? Wonderful, lets crush. Want to watch a FC take on some HNM that I aspire to fight myself one day once we get our gear/shit together? It'll be like watching sports complete with shit talk. Want to help gearup Casual McWorksalot so he can raid with us? Rally the troops. Care to farm gil so the FC can have an even more awesome looking house? Lets smash some monsters and sell loot on the markets.

I don't need the XI style soulcrushing drop rates or the competition of running across the Shroud for a claim but what I do want is the overworld to mean something in a genre that has increasingly become too reliant on instancing everything. Give people a reason to explore the world and to partake in participating in what it has to offer. Create more opportunities to hang out with your server mates rather than tossing in a microwave pizza while you wait for some random scrubs from who-gives-a-fuck to queue up so you can run a dungeon and then never see them again. Encourage the server to unite, to take on those challenges like Behemoth and Odin and for people to invest time in others because that is ultimately what keeps people playing well beyond their own objectives.

Like I said, XI had redeeming qualities or people would have quit years ago. Some aspects need to stay dead but that doesn't mean it didn't get some things right.

[Slycer]

@Slycer: If SE ever gets its programming act together, we may very well see some of those things down the line. With just about everything being instanced, it's not an impossibility.

I really hope so. It just seems like such an obvious thing to do, and one that should be pretty high priority. The excitement/rush of getting through a tough boss fight with a DF group you know is doing it for the first time where everyone is on their A-game and barely scrapes through is so quickly deflated by saying "see ya!" before popping through the portal knowing full well that you really won't ever see them again. That's really where the friendships should be starting, but they don't get the chance, and I still haven't really gotten used to that.

[Artifact]

Don't tell me about what you do or do not expect. Tell me about what you want. What do you want in 2013?

I don't want to be able to run through the entire world of Eorzea by myself with laughable aggro and not die. Parts of the world are meant to be dangerous. Eorzea right now is a euphoria. I can run into Lv. 49 and 50 mobs with no problem whatsoever. Stupid. I don't want my character in unflattering AF gear / some darklight to be invincible. I was actually pissed when I traded in triple melded items I dumped millions upon millions of gil into for tomestones, but now somehow... my character is stronger in this new world?

I would like to play with my Free Company other than AK runs and primal battles just to farm tomestones for the best gear in the game. Oh, 13 AK runs and you're promised the best piece of armor in the game. Where the hell is the separation?

I want competition. Think about it very simply in a way that most can relate.

XI created a stage of high level competition. Division 1 in terms of athletics. Actual dedication, thought, work, team chemistry played a role.
XIV creates a stage where the entire campus can participate just by signing up. The co-ed intramural league. Where everybody has the same opportunity to play and have fun.

This isn't just in MMO's or video games for me. I enjoy competition. I enjoy looking up to someone. I enjoy setting goals and working for them.

Goal 1: Burn through MSQ by myself.
Goal 2: Speed through AK and get full darklight in a week.
Goal 3: Get every Garuda weapon.
Goal 4: AF2?
Goal 5: Fuck, my entire LS is capped out and has the best gear in the game. I'll go wipe in Duty Finder.

[ronin sparthos]

Those forced you to get into groups (which could be done through shouts) NOT forcing you to make friends with those you grouped up with.

Again, it's increased opportunity, not forced friendship.

You may think it's semantics, but I think if you are going to attack FFXIV for not having something, it better be for something it doesn't actually have.

Also, I find it lol that you are trying to argue in favor of creating boring ass 6+ hour content to make it so people are more likely to talk.
I'll pass on that.

Dunno where you got I'm a proponent of Dynamis or 6hr+ Sandworm camps but ok.

Forcing people to group up is how people become friends. When a game tilts too much towards individualism with an emphasis on instances it effectively becomes a single-player game with a dash of "lets do X/Y/Z dungeon" rather than emphasizing the massively multiplayer aspect of MMOs. Again, this can be done without Tanaka-era fuck your life, fuck your friends, fuck your family or buy this 2000 USD bot to claim Fafnir and monopolize the server as the devs look the other way and rake in sub cash.

Many MMOs burn out because once you cap your own loot, accomplish your own objectives and run the few instances that matter you're done with the game. You aren't encouraged to create bonds for or against people that keep you playing for the competitive/cooperative aspects. It's the biggest pitfall that XIV has in its future.

[Ksandra]

Dunno where you got I'm a proponent of Dynamis or 6hr+ Sandworm camps but ok.

I was talking about parties, which is what YOU referred to.

When you're partying for 3hrs+ you're practically forced to either start talking or become so bored that your EXP/hr suffers as a result.

Forcing people to group up is one way people can become friends.

ftfy

I didn't meet my husband by forcing to group up with anyone.

[ronin sparthos]

I was talking about parties, which is what YOU referred to.

And I've already said twice that parties don't need to be boring XI colibri grab bags where you spend 6 hours repeating the same actions but that the game lacks proper events for you simply chill and enjoy something simple enough that fosters party discussion that could lead to making friends or simply bolstering FC morale. It could be farming monsters in the overworld for some type of currency or simply gathering items to fight a larger monster.

Of course you can also make friends doing FATE or during the main scenario but its unlikely because the game doesn't need you to do those things when you can easily solo. You won't be doing much talking in an instance where your eyes are on dodging, healing, tanking or DPS. One fuckup in some of those hardmode primals and you're done.

I didn't meet my husband by forcing to group up with anyone.

And I met my ex-GF of six years skilling up cooking as she fed me crystals she farmed to bank gil. We didn't meet grouping up either but XI facilitated an environment where you needed to communicate with people to succeed which heightens one's commitment to the game and the social avenues provided. XIV encourages minimalist party adventures through FATE, hardmode primals with little room for speaking and dungeon raids with people you'll probably never see again.

It's not even in the same area code with regards to sociability as XI was for better or worse. Last night I had a great social party in Qarn and I'll never see any of those good people again.

[Ksandra]

And I've already said twice that parties don't need to be boring XI colibri grab bags where you spend 6 hours repeating the same actions but that the game lacks proper events for you simply chill and enjoy something simple enough that fosters party discussion that could lead to making friends or simply bolstering FC morale. It could be farming monsters in the overworld for some type of currency or simply gathering items to fight a larger monster.

You can't follow a convo order can you?

Of course you can also make friends doing FATE or during the main scenario but its unlikely because the game doesn't need you to do those things when you can easily solo.

For you maybe, there are people in this thread saying the opposite.

You do realize you get more xp in a fate party than solo right?

It's not even in the same area code with regards to sociability as XI was for better or worse.

I never said otherwise. Maybe you should actually read my posts and figure out what I am saying first.

[Lucavi]

Well the good news in all of this is when these people get bored of ARR in their three months, XI is still ripe and raring to go.

[Achitophel]

Are people still insisting that other folks are just wrong when they say they feel like there's very little social interaction until higher levels in this game? STILL? Is Lucavi still ranting about FFXI?

Lemme know

[Artifact]

Well the good news in all of this is when these people get bored of ARR in their three months, XI is still ripe and raring to go.

The real question is, what are you going to be doing in ARR in 3 months if no additional content is added?

I will play the game for at least a year (probably more since I played 1.0 for 2), but if you are a full time player (3-4hrs a day/night) and you capped most if not all jobs in 1.0... what will be available to do?

[Gokulo]

The real question is, what are you going to be doing in ARR in 3 months if no additional content is added?

I will play the game for at least a year (probably more since I played 1.0 for 2), but if you are a full time player (3-4hrs a day/night) and you capped most if not all jobs in 1.0... what will be available to do?

This is an issue with any MMO though. Developers will never churn out enough content for hardcore players.

[The Stig]

Want to watch a FC take on some HNM that I aspire to fight myself one day once we get our gear/shit together? It'll be like watching sports complete with shit talk.

Ya I loved this component on FFXI. For boredom one day I had a friend come over, and I walked my char to Behemoth's Dominion where KB is due to spawn to show him some "high level stuff" in FFXI (I neither had sky or sea or dynamis, so this was the next best option).

When KB spawned (I protected myself with Stoneskin and Shell IV) even though it was slightly messy, he walked my char around spectating and absolutely loved doing so. Partially because there was trash talk and banter going on in chat, but he said he'd happily take a char to 75 and just watch this shit all day because it was hilarious, but refused because he doesn't like monthly subs. Not only this, he did walk around in the field and just watched various people fight normal mobs too and enjoyed it.

When I saw that clip/gif of someone randomly walking by a behemoth who just casted meteor (that gif where it was Oh hi guys! <boom> <dead>) I was hoping it'd be like that until I learnt that it was a FATE.

Assuming a pop system where a FC can pool resources to buy a pop (so it's not something that can happen endlessly) I would happily camp out and spectate, and just chat in say either praising or trash talking, and oh hey, make friends and enemies! haha

I'm hoping there can be some sort of esports system spawning from FFXIV that's not watching live streams of other people's raids. Infact if those PvP battlegounds can be spectable from the side or some where slightly high up where you can't affect the battle that'd be cool too. I won't mind coming from home, warping to an instance spectate area and watch people PvP to death haha

I don't want to be able to run through the entire world of Eorzea by myself with laughable aggro and not die. Parts of the world are meant to be dangerous. Eorzea right now is a euphoria. I can run into Lv. 49 and 50 mobs with no problem whatsoever.

Unsure where to stand on this. In one aspect it's good to get to where you want with minimal trouble, or run through kuftal tunnel with a train of crabs that can quite possible kill you still even when 35+ levels above it ....

[ronin sparthos]

Well the good news in all of this is when these people get bored of ARR in their three months, XI is still ripe and raring to go.

Lol XI is currently struggling to get 1k people on a server, I would be surprised if the old girl has another year or two in her.

[Lucavi]

The real question is, what are you going to be doing in ARR in 3 months if no additional content is added?

I will play the game for at least a year (probably more since I played 1.0 for 2), but if you are a full time player (3-4hrs a day/night) and you capped most if not all jobs in 1.0... what will be available to do?

I'm going to be right here. This game is fantastic. I typically stay with quality games for at least a year and a half. TERA was my shortest because the paintings that hid the cracks and blemishes fell down too early. XI was 5 or so years, Rift was a good year, WoW was 2 and a half...

You needn't worry about me. I don't rush progression, so I won't be done everything in a year's time. If anything, I'll be just blowing one or two jobs up to their absolute max, then terrorizing the PVP scene.

*Rhonin: Who knows?! I give that game a ton of credit: its still bringing in enough coin to keep the lights on. It'll be a sad day when they shut her down, but I'm not so sure its coming anytime soon unless everyone bails XI for ARR, which we know won't happen.

Edit: Lol@Arch in general.

[Ksandra]

Lol XI is currently struggling to get 1k people on a server, I would be surprised if the old girl has another year or two in her.

UO is still surviving, friend was dicking around on it during ffxiv log in issues, he said he thinks there's about 300-400 people playing in total. And that's still p2p.

As long as it makes money, FFXI will be here much longer than a year.