The state of the economy, discussion.(inspired by reddit admittedly)

[Berabouman]

If there will be a problem in the future SE can just press a button to change the value of rewards / cost of repairs. Dunno whats the point of stressing about it.

It's admittedly a lazy solution but I agree that SE is the most likely to do this. It doesn't actually require much hard-coding or fixing, just manipulating numbers. They don't need to re-tool anything, basically, programming-wise.

And like I said earlier they could also just change the amount of gil things NPC for, levee quest rewards etc.

[Alkimi]

As someone in my LS suggested, having trash mobs in dungeons drop the Allagan currency on a fairly regular basis would both generate some gil and give some incentive to actually clearing them rather than just skipping as we've seen happening in Amdapor Keep.

[ChocoFeru]

I find this economic system a very good one, and you can still generate more than deleted gils with some effort.

The point is to prevent people to have trillions of gil, inflating prices, and making repair a joke.

It's also good for new people, because, let's say, a single Lilen Thread can cost 5-10g, but, if generating gils is too easy and there's few ways to delete it, in 1-2 years that Linen Thread will cost 200-300g, just like happened on FFXI, where people had gil capped and prices were impossible for new players, like Vermillion Cloack selling from 200k to 5M back on FFXI.

That way we will have a sustained economy. Anyways... ¿What do you need gils for? ¿AH? You can pretty much make everything by your own, and on my side, I generate more than I consume.

With daily quests we will have a new income, and the gil-deleter will be Housing. Still sustained!

[SephYuyX]

Lets do a comparison to XI (oh god no).

What gil generating things did XI have aside from NPCing junk? I'm having a hard time thinking of anything. Beastmen dropped insignificant amounts, you could get some from BCNM, but again not much compared. What else was there?

I never once farmed for gil in XI since it was so crappy. It was also farm for items and sell on AH, and sometimes maybe to a vendor instead.

I think the big difference between the two games is that junk sold to the vendors is very different. So far everything i've picked up sells for ~2gil, while the same sort of stuff would atleast go for 10~100 on XI.

Not saying that 2gil is terrible as long as other functions match (teleport costs, repair costs, etc), but yeah, idk.


I still have an ok chunk from 1.0, have been doing every quest available, and have only had to repair twice (under 500gil each time), and teleporting is my only real sink, so not the best view atm. Though I just unlocked chocobo for fighting, so 99 greens cost almost 4k.

[Frein]

I haven't really played on my L50 classes, but in any case, when money is unregulated the way it is in FFXIV or back during the classical gold standard, deflation makes money more valuable, which leads to increased money production, which reduces the deflationary pressure.

My guess is that as gil becomes more scarce, people will simply start doing things that reward gil rather than not giving a damn and solely focusing on activities that reward end game gear. Of course, it's entirely possible that, since repair costs are fixed, these activities are still not enough and gil rewards for certain things need to be increased or repair costs have to in some way adjust to the available money supply.

Everything so far that I've seen points to SE being extremely careful and conservative about their game economy. (kind like the actual Japanese economy, now that I think about it, though that is a far more complex issue) They seem to be over-concerned about inflation, so they've gone full speed in the opposite direction. Perhaps the dailies are intended to be a solution? It would certainly seem that they are planning for the future, rather than dealing with the current issues.

Actually, BoJ is printing more money (relative to the size of the economy) than any other central bank. They have a program similar to the Fed's QE, only much larger. It's going to end in tears but that's what central banks are for (tears).

[Tokitoki]

As someone in my LS suggested, having trash mobs in dungeons drop the Allagan currency on a fairly regular basis would both generate some gil and give some incentive to actually clearing them rather than just skipping as we've seen happening in Amdapor Keep.

This is what I was thinking. Do Wanderer's and Keep drop Allagan pieces? The silvers NPC for 5k each. I know at this point I have 50k on my character and highest class is 30ACN. I even spent a good amount of time/gil getting Weaver to 20 and teleporting around for Levequests, buying mats from other guilds, etc. Granted I've been choosing the Allagan pieces as rewards whenever I could, especially since I can make my own Disciple of War gear if I need it.

[Neviskio]

Yeah square can easily fix this in a blink of an eye, the question is, when and how will they? Remember that before a few years they were kind of... slow to adapt to change.

Just a random answers, kinda lazy to quote 1 by 1 so bear with me:

Instances should maybe drop a few more allagan pieces, right now what they drop at 50 is a joke because it's not enough to cover repairs(should maybe be allagan gold pieces) and you're not even sure to get them since it's not really plenty what comes from chests.

XI economy I'm not sure was comparable for 2 factors, first it had no repair, second, npcing items made you a living in some cases(think we all remember the nightmare of the rmt christmas or the other exploits where inflaction hit the game), and that's a big point here, because if I can survive with fishing and npcing at 5 gil a pieces, hell, it might be grindy as fuck, but it works.Right now you can't because you npc for 5 gils and spend 6+ on repairs to fish that, I don't think being 100% naked + only the fishing rod(just an example) is viable...and god npcing is damn slow money anyway.

I don't think the issue will keep for long since, it's easy to fix it, I was just intrigued by the system compared to inflationistic ones.Being in a constant state of slight deflation might be good if once in a while there's some huge cash flow incoming...

I'm also on the other hand super pissed on the dailies approach, if you haven't played wow, and if they do emulate that system, people will be royally pissed.In the last wow expansion I took a 4 months break because if I didn't log in every day and did 50+dailies (mind numbingly boring ones, and with world pvp + hefty competition for some) it was just impossible to be raiding efficiently, and I would hate ffxiv to go in that route.

I really thought leves where the point but meh...need some tweaks to be it.

Also I noticed that some people are finding a convoluted, but efficient way of making gil, which I had not considered:

They build specific crap sets for farming fates/crafts/etc, with super cheap materials, and they NEVER repair them, and try to convert them to materia.I find it a bit backwards to have to go from maybe 60+ ilvl to crap lvl 40-50 whites that gimp your char, but that seems to be a way, maybe square thought this would naturally be the normal action? Get the fancy gear for raiding, shit gear for the rest of the game? Surely it's hard to get into if you played other games, since you usually just keep spiraling upwards with the gear.

Also a side effect: why should this reduce people reliance on RMT? If I were in the situation of being with high disposable income, laziness, and no money, probably with the economic system I'd go buy from rmt instead of farming.Which for me is ridiculous, I had hoped they'd found a way to kill it, not incentivize lazy people on doing it because there's no easy way of farming money xD

Well all in all, we're just discussing something that will probably be fixed soon, decide d to check the official forum, noticed people are making a huge fuss about this, if everything goes as theorized the backlash could be really quick if people cap 50 fast enough and go whine on the forum...

Hope they don't go inflation crazy to fix that though, or job-like for dailies, I really hate being forced into those

edit: I think instances at 50 drop allagan bronze/tin btw, I can't remember on top of my mind now, but it's really...wrong =P

[Viq]

Lets do a comparison to XI (oh god no).

Gotta get some fishing bots to kick start this new economy.

[Ggrab]

Buy crafted lvl50gear just do lvl50 guildleaves.
It isn't going to hurt your raiding gearset plus ur crafted armor will be getting spiritbound so u can convert to matera.


The problem is ppl rush to lvl50 and are farming the 8man raids nonstop so it not nobody fault but urself for rushing to lvl50 and trying to do 5 8man run per day.


I would also like to add that the dark matter price will be cheaper once there more on the market (miners will farm them & sell on MB) once that market balance out. You can expect to see a stack of 99 dark matter super cheap

[shepardG]

Yeah square can easily fix this in a blink of an eye, the question is, when and how will they? Remember that before a few years they were kind of... slow to adapt to change.

Just a random answers, kinda lazy to quote 1 by 1 so bear with me:

Instances should maybe drop a few more allagan pieces, right now what they drop at 50 is a joke because it's not enough to cover repairs(should maybe be allagan gold pieces) and you're not even sure to get them since it's not really plenty what comes from chests.

XI economy I'm not sure was comparable for 2 factors, first it had no repair, second, npcing items made you a living in some cases(think we all remember the nightmare of the rmt christmas or the other exploits where inflaction hit the game), and that's a big point here, because if I can survive with fishing and npcing at 5 gil a pieces, hell, it might be grindy as fuck, but it works.Right now you can't because you npc for 5 gils and spend 6+ on repairs to fish that, I don't think being 100% naked + only the fishing rod(just an example) is viable...and god npcing is damn slow money anyway.

I don't think the issue will keep for long since, it's easy to fix it, I was just intrigued by the system compared to inflationistic ones.Being in a constant state of slight deflation might be good if once in a while there's some huge cash flow incoming...

I'm also on the other hand super pissed on the dailies approach, if you haven't played wow, and if they do emulate that system, people will be royally pissed.In the last wow expansion I took a 4 months break because if I didn't log in every day and did 50+dailies (mind numbingly boring ones, and with world pvp + hefty competition for some) it was just impossible to be raiding efficiently, and I would hate ffxiv to go in that route.

I really thought leves where the point but meh...need some tweaks to be it.

Also I noticed that some people are finding a convoluted, but efficient way of making gil, which I had not considered:

They build specific crap sets for farming fates/crafts/etc, with super cheap materials, and they NEVER repair them, and try to convert them to materia.I find it a bit backwards to have to go from maybe 60+ ilvl to crap lvl 40-50 whites that gimp your char, but that seems to be a way, maybe square thought this would naturally be the normal action? Get the fancy gear for raiding, shit gear for the rest of the game? Surely it's hard to get into if you played other games, since you usually just keep spiraling upwards with the gear.

Also a side effect: why should this reduce people reliance on RMT? If I were in the situation of being with high disposable income, laziness, and no money, probably with the economic system I'd go buy from rmt instead of farming.Which for me is ridiculous, I had hoped they'd found a way to kill it, not incentivize lazy people on doing it because there's no easy way of farming money xD

Well all in all, we're just discussing something that will probably be fixed soon, decide d to check the official forum, noticed people are making a huge fuss about this, if everything goes as theorized the backlash could be really quick if people cap 50 fast enough and go whine on the forum...

Hope they don't go inflation crazy to fix that though, or job-like for dailies, I really hate being forced into those

edit: I think instances at 50 drop allagan bronze/tin btw, I can't remember on top of my mind now, but it's really...wrong =P

You mention spiritbonding as something new lol, this was the revolving door in 1.0 make it, bond it, break it, sell it.

[Datonare]

Buy crafted lvl50gear just do lvl50 guildleaves.
It isn't going to hurt your raiding gearset plus ur crafted armor will be getting spiritbound so u can convert to matera.


The problem is ppl rush to lvl50 and are farming the 8man raids nonstop so it not nobody fault but urself for rushing to lvl50 and trying to do 5 8man run per day.


I would also like to add that the dark matter price will be cheaper once there more on the market (miners will farm them & sell on MB) once that market balance out. You can expect to see a stack of 99 dark matter super cheap

You seem to have all the answers. Except, you know, you can't gather DM anymore.

[Neviskio]

You mention spiritbonding as something new lol, this was the revolving door in 1.0 make it, bond it, break it, sell it.

Well it's not new, but it doesn't make sense in my gamer mind....because why would I use my shit white gear when I got my awesome relic +1? I know I know, it's better and all to save repairs, makes materia, etc. I just feel silly doing it still <.<(not that i have the relic +1 but just saying)

I'm guessing that's the way to do it, but still feels strange to me...I didn't go around farming bosses to use shit gear 99% of my game time =P

also ggrab, you can't blame people for rushing, the system has to be working, then everyone can do what the hell they want, it's not that they're hurting us directly, they enjoy doing 50 runs a day, let them to, this is gonna bite everyone in the end anyway till they fix it, rushing or not rushing, quests do end.

Also the problem with gathering materia is that...you have still to repair the gear, but again, if we go by the "just equip shit gear and throw it away" then it's fine and maybe it will fix the economy without s-e influx, kinda still food for thought on how we get there =P

It's definitely a new approach to the game compared to rfit/swtor/wow/tera/gw2 and all others that I can think of, which can be good or bad.Will have to see how many people embrace change, and how many will just whine at s-e door untill they give in, as wow did in the 9 years of constant crying on the official forums =P

edit: wait just read last post, you can't gather dm anymore? I wasn't up to that...are you sure? I don't like particularly gatherning so I just assumed you could?

[Datonare]

Yes, I'm sure you can't gather it anymore. It was even in the patch notes for Beta 4 I think

[Lucavi]

As someone in my LS suggested, having trash mobs in dungeons drop the Allagan currency on a fairly regular basis would both generate some gil and give some incentive to actually clearing them rather than just skipping as we've seen happening in Amdapor Keep.

Yoshi is pretty good at responding to stuff: I'd like to see this suggested quite a few times around him.

Trash needs to serve some function outside of blocking our way. This is Final Fantasy: there have always been random encounters, but random encounters always had a chance to drop -something-. A few bronze or silver pieces at the highest level dungeons isn't going to kill the economy.

[Ggrab]

also ggrab, you can't blame people for rushing, the system has to be working, then everyone can do what the hell they want, it's not that they're hurting us directly, they enjoy doing 50 runs a day, let them to, this is gonna bite everyone in the end anyway till they fix it, rushing or not rushing, quests do end.

edit: wait just read last post, you can't gather dm anymore? I wasn't up to that...are you sure? I don't like particularly gatherning so I just assumed you could?

In ffxi you had to earn your Gil so I expect ffxiv to be the same , not like games like swtor (last mmo I play ) where you can do dailes & an hour and earn 200k+ each day.


Also idk they remove DM from gathering , it doesn't make sense if they did that Are you sure?!?

[arus2001]

Would say dailies, 2-3x FATE payouts, and boss chests guaranteeing enough to 100% repair level appropriate gear over the course of a dungeon a good method for countering steep repair costs. Then again, I'll be that guy and say repairs add nothing to the game other than inconvenience. With dungeons timed, incompetence has a limit. As well, boss arenas get locked off to prevent zombie tactics.

[Darkyrm]

I dont think anyone on this board has the meanings to know if the economy is deflating because the gil sinking systems (taxes, teleports, repairs) are shrinking the Monetary Mass in the game, all you can have is anecdotal evidences which ok it could really point to an actual shrinking but you really cant be sure if its only hi leveled people being annoyed by expensive repairs. Square Enix on the other side can easily check what the actual gil in the economy in each server and fix it quite easily.

Since the main problem that worries people seems to be lvl 50 repairs, it would be interesting to really test if earning enough seals wears your gear so much that its not worth it, if earning seals works fine to solve the expenses of repairing gear then at some point most people will adapt and it will auto-correct the problem, but I understand that its a lot friendlier to just use repair npcs so if its really shrinking the monetary mass it would be nice for SE to adjust it in the future.

Im not really worried at this point, the game has been barely working 10 days? and Im not really sure the gil sinks are greater than the gil makers, fates, missions, pieces, npcing drops... a subtle inflation economy that can sustain npc repairs would be the ideal scenario IMO, but a subtle inflation where people can adapt using seals or crap FATE sets (that was one of my ideas to auto-correct the problem glad to see mentioned).

What I dont like at this point about the economy in the game is that everyone can level all crafts at maximum level and its kind of too easy using leves to level them, liked how you had to choose a main craft in XI, but I understand that we are in an early 50 lvl cap and you still have to spend time to level them, worries me a bit but well see how thing goes in the future.

[Waraji]

Unless they start adding gil drops to dungeon chests, shit is gonna get serious if Dalies don't pay up, and if there aren't any incentives added to FATEs for level 50 people other than seals. I'd like to see bit more seal drops maybe, I haven't done the seal to dark matter ratio, but that would be an avenue for repairs instead of actual gil.

I'm doing some "research" into crafting leves, seeing what the high end gil rewards are compared to turn in NQ/HQ item prices, or ease of material attainment to craft them. Ideally I hope to see a handful of leves which I can go farm up couple stacks of the mats, sit down and craft, and spam the leves for gil rewards. Some of them give you return on mats for the items you're turning (Mythril Ore reward on Mythril Ingot required delivery, but not enough to redo the leve).

Edit: Darkym brought up a good point on the wear/seal earnings. Which reminded me, you can always farm up sets of dungeon gear, from Keep or otherwise, and use that for FATE grinding for seals, or other Seal content. That way, you are knocking out a couple of birds. Earning Seals w/o accruing repair cost, Materia spiritbonding also giving you materia, and that in turn empties out your amoury chest of unwanted gear. With this method, you can earn seals, and earn materia to then sell on the AH.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Also idk they remove DM from gathering , it doesn't make sense if they did that Are you sure?!?

They show gatherers exactly what they can gather and the zone where it can be gathered. DM is not there.

[Artifact]

It's a good way to look at it. I've actually thought about it, seeing as though my gil rewards are like 300 gil and I spend way more on teleporting.

It will all pan out though. On non-legacy servers SE is probably monitoring how it is working. Also giving decent gear out in missions / buying gear with flames / obtaining gear with tomestones makes it an entirely different currency system. I have only spent gil once, and it was a 39k ring, that I remembered was a 390k ring in comparison. I wanted to throw my computer.