[Guide] Paladin Tanking Compendium (Last update 11/13/13)

[GarbageNinga]

See:



This depends somewhat on your current HP but you can give up a maximum of 1 VIT to hit the next combined block and parry tier (like 405 STR) for it to be a definite improvement in survivability. You might just get away with sacrificing 2 VIT if you are already full i90 but I really can't be arsed to check the numbers on that. As for hitting the next block or parry tier... don't even take that shit in to consideration.

Example: Parry mitigation goes up at 405 STR, block mitigation goes up at 404 STR. If you had 403 STR then you might consider sacrificing 2 VIT for 2 STR (if this were even possible lol) and you would walk away with a sidegrade boost to survivability at least, or an inconceivably small upgrade at best.

TLDR: No.

I am in mostly ilvl 90 about 6850ish HP in party w/food. Its merely switching allocation. I will give it a whirl and do my best to provide numbers. Any suggestions on testing methodology?

Also thanks for the info/answer.

Also not doubting that you're 100% correct there just isn't much to do in game but theory craft and check this stuff lol

[Sapphidia]

Here's hoping a future patch sometime adds the actual % chance to block/parry and the reduced amount as a visible value on the character screen. We can dream.

Perhaps a basic question on the same subject - is block/parry chance totally independant of mob level and accuracy? I assume it is but I'd never seen it mentioned. For a lot of other calculations, you're comparing a stat of the attacker with a stat of the defender or its level and getting a percentage based on the difference. Just always felt a bit odd that block/parry was a fixed percent here.

[Jahaudant]

No testing required really (except to get an accurate block rate).

Going up a block tier increases your mitigation on successful blocks by 1% for all physical attacks.

With 16% chance to block (guesstimated) for 1% additional mitigation from the new tier you have an average damage reduction increase of 0.16% on physical attacks only. For your 6850 HP PLD this is an EHP increase (again, vs physical damage enemies only) of 11.96. Since 1 VIT provides exactly 14.5 HP before the party buff then in this case 1 VIT > Additional Block Tier.

[Andradi]

In most cases (everything but twintania?) could it not be argued that the extra HP is entirely useless?

[Jahaudant]

In most cases (everything but twintania?) could it not be argued that the extra HP is entirely useless?

I don't think it could be argued that more HP is useless as the more you have the larger the margin for error becomes for your healers (and your self, to an extent) which in turn increases the statistical success rate of your raid. However, it could certainly be argued that more HP isn't necessary and that increasing your own DPS also increases the statistical success rate of your raid.

You could swing it either way.

I personally prefer the higher HP pool.

[GarbageNinga]

No testing required really (except to get an accurate block rate).

Going up a block tier increases your mitigation on successful blocks by 1% for all physical attacks.

With 16% chance to block (guesstimated) for 1% additional mitigation from the new tier you have an average damage reduction increase of 0.16% on physical attacks only. For your 6850 HP PLD this is an EHP increase (again, vs physical damage enemies only) of 11.96. Since 1 VIT provides exactly 14.5 HP before the party buff then in this case 1 VIT > Additional Block Tier.

Assuming rhe guesstimate is correct you also have 1% increase in parry.

Also I might have overlooked it but how important is Parry? I mean from 600-to say 625 is it really that huge?

Sorry for all the questions I just have an OCD when it comes to my main class and gathering all possible knowledge and I truly do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and helping me better understand core mechanics.

Furthermore according to the original post it puts resistance higher than Parry would slotting in say Fire resist for twintania be even worth considering?

[Jahaudant]

Assuming rhe guesstimate is correct you also have 1% increase in parry.

Also I might have overlooked it but how important is Parry? I mean from 600-to say 625 is it really that huge?

Sorry for all the questions I just have an OCD when it comes to my main class and gathering all possible knowledge and I truly do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and helping me better understand core mechanics.

Furthermore according to the original post it puts resistance higher than Parry would slotting in say Fire resist for twintania be even worth considering?

Aah, in your case specifically (gaining 14 STR to hit 405) then yeah, you would hit the next tier for both parry and block. The numbers would be pretty much exactly how I explained it in my first post on the subject;

16% BR + 20% PR = 36% chance to trigger mitigation that is 1% higher than before you hit the higher tiers.
This gives you an additional 0.36% average damage mitigation on physical attacks over the course of a fight, or with your 6850 HP pool an EHP increase of 24.66.

Remember that you can't block or parry some things at all. For example: Turn 1 ADS/Nodes, all of turn 2, Twintania's Liquid Hell spam, so the value of increased block is somewhat diminished.

As for the importance of parry I don't actually know specifically how the parry stat effects us (as in point for point) other than that it increases our parry rate. I don't know of any reliable testing that has been carried out on parry rate. The way I see it is we have 4 stats available to itemise for (after the minimum accuracy requirement for X content is met, of course). Parry, determination, crit, and skill speed - since only one of these stats directly effects how 'tough' we are it's pretty much a no brainer on which one to focus on when playing a tanking role.

I don't see anything in OP regarding resistance?

[GarbageNinga]

Aah, in your case specifically (gaining 14 STR to hit 405) then yeah, you would hit the next tier for both parry and block. The numbers would be pretty much exactly how I explained it in my first post on the subject;

16% BR + 20% PR = 36% chance to trigger mitigation that is 1% higher than before you hit the higher tiers.
This gives you an additional 0.36% average damage mitigation on physical attacks over the course of a fight, or with your 6850 HP pool an EHP increase of 24.66.

Remember that you can't block or parry some things at all. For example: Turn 1 ADS/Nodes, all of turn 2, Twintania's Liquid Hell spam, so the value of increased block is somewhat diminished.

As for the importance of parry I don't actually know specifically how the parry stat effects us (as in point for point) other than that it increases our parry rate. I don't know of any reliable testing that has been carried out on parry rate. The way I see it is we have 4 stats available to itemise for (after the minimum accuracy requirement for X content is met, of course). Parry, determination, crit, and skill speed - since only one of these stats directly effects how 'tough' we are it's pretty much a no brainer on which one to focus on when playing a tanking role.

I don't see anything in OP regarding resistance?

Sorry it wasnt in the original post per se just by the OP- ear is currently weighted, but subject to change:
Accuracy to 475 -> Item Quality -> Item Level -> Defense (If armor)/DPS (If weapon) -> VIT -> STR -> Resistance -> (Determination = Parry) -> Skill Speed -> Crit

I actually calculated wrong anyways I would be giving up 7 Vit for 7 Str to get to next tier (well 405).

I just wondered if there were any specific calculations or educated guesses as to Parry IE if it worked similar to Str in tiers as we are talking 1%'s here. As I do not currently have optimized Parry gear as coil hasnt been dropping the correct items lol, so I had to venture out and grab un-optimal Valor pieces IE have valor feet and allagan legs- allagan chest -valor head- etc (also bought bracelet since I was over accuracy and it had better stats vs wasted accuracy for the time being). With the obvious onset eventually will be in perfect gear but at the mercy of drops and want to assume nothing is ever going to drop again to play at the best of my current ability.

I also understand we are talking physical damage on block parry vs the evident fact that HP is always there regardless of those varaibles (minus I guess you could say Rooks in T4 which eat them if you didnt move nom nom nom)

I will be going Roeg since Vit is obvious very important and this testing can be done via just simple stat "resets" . Maybe I overthink things (most in my FC think I have an OCD as we are talking 1 vit but I like to extremely optimize.)

Again thanks for the responses.

[Sapphidia]

In most cases (everything but twintania?) could it not be argued that the extra HP is entirely useless?

This is a question needing to be asked in every new MMO that comes out, and the answer is found by asking the question "what kills a tank"? Is it:

a.) A boss deals a huge burst of damage that kills a tank from 100% to 0% before healers can react.
b.) A boss deals huge sustained damage over time and the combination of healer output with tank mitigation isnt enough to keep up, so after a period of time the tank simply runs out of health.
c.) A boss deals constant damage that doesnt endanger the tank but causes healers to run out of mana eventually.
d.) Tanks never die but they lose aggro easily and bosses run rampant and kill everyone else first.

Each MMO is different. The solutions to fixing the above deaths are A.) more Effective Health (pure non-random mitigation and extra HP), B.) more mitigation (including random dodge/parry stuff), and C.) more mitigation as well. D.) is solved by stacking threat/damage.

So technically only in situation A does an increased Health Pool actually help in any way... However, in Final Fantasy, A is the tank killer. Mitigation helps, and you can argue that some encounters have a few elements of B and C, but generally speaking if you have a healer able to stand and tunnel heals without having to move too much they can keep any reasonably-geared tank up in any context without running out of mana if they know what they're doing.

World of Warcraft saw an interesting shift between its tank philosophy after the second expansion. Around Black Temple/Sunwell time every tank was stuffing pure Stamina into every slot. Dodge/Parry/Block was nigh on useless, all that mattered was Health Pool (and armor, which you couldnt really increase). By the time Cataclysm came around most of the encounters had shifted a bit so your average tank just ensured they had a minimum amount of HP and then stuffed avoidance into everything so their healers didn't run out of mana.

The issue that compounds Final Fantasy's limited tank gearing choices is double-edged. Firstly, a tank with a relic weapon will be able to hold aggro off pretty much anyone without having to gear for threat in any way (especially if it's +1). If the aggro ceilings were closer, we'd see a lot more advocation of Strength builds. Secondly, the effect of non-Vitality is very very minor. Tank dps isnt a huge enough impact to make a difference on DPS races if they go full on strength spec, and the mitigation you get from Strength/Dex is close to zero. Perhaps the only situation where as much damage/threat as possible would be desirable at the expense of other things could be in Turn 4.

If Strength increased your mitigation by a factor of 3-4 more than it does now, it might be worth considering. If tank threat was remotely an issue in the current content, it might be worth considering. If no bosses were bursty but tanks died due to healers going OOM or simply not having enough HPS to keep them up, then yes, strength/parry would take precedence. As it stands, you really can't stack enough Health because it's the Burst Damage that's the tank killer here, and for all situations where burst damage isnt a problem the values don't really justify stacking anything else than Vitality unless you're utterly focused on having the highest damage tank you can.

FF14 is an MMO with the "tanks die by burst damage" mechanic to its hard content, compounded by incredibly poor returns for mitigation and currently a balance of threat generation that makes aggro a non issue in 99% of cases. As a result, the only time you can argue -not- stacking Vitality (or EHP rather) is on content where there's virtually no chance of a tank death at all.

[gaogaostegosaurus]

This is a question needing to be asked in every new MMO that comes out, and the answer is found by asking the question "what kills a tank"? Is it:

a.) A boss deals a huge burst of damage that kills a tank from 100% to 0% before healers can react.
b.) A boss deals huge sustained damage over time and the combination of healer output with tank mitigation isnt enough to keep up, so after a period of time the tank simply runs out of health.
c.) A boss deals constant damage that doesnt endanger the tank but causes healers to run out of mana eventually.
d.) Tanks never die but they lose aggro easily and bosses run rampant and kill everyone else first.

Each MMO is different. The solutions to fixing the above deaths are A.) more Effective Health (pure non-random mitigation and extra HP), B.) more mitigation (including random dodge/parry stuff), and C.) more mitigation as well. D.) is solved by stacking threat/damage.

So technically only in situation A does an increased Health Pool actually help in any way... However, in Final Fantasy, A is the tank killer. Mitigation helps, and you can argue that some encounters have a few elements of B and C, but generally speaking if you have a healer able to stand and tunnel heals without having to move too much they can keep any reasonably-geared tank up in any context without running out of mana if they know what they're doing.

World of Warcraft saw an interesting shift between its tank philosophy after the second expansion. Around Black Temple/Sunwell time every tank was stuffing pure Stamina into every slot. Dodge/Parry/Block was nigh on useless, all that mattered was Health Pool (and armor, which you couldnt really increase). By the time Cataclysm came around most of the encounters had shifted a bit so your average tank just ensured they had a minimum amount of HP and then stuffed avoidance into everything so their healers didn't run out of mana.

The issue that compounds Final Fantasy's limited tank gearing choices is double-edged. Firstly, a tank with a relic weapon will be able to hold aggro off pretty much anyone without having to gear for threat in any way (especially if it's +1). If the aggro ceilings were closer, we'd see a lot more advocation of Strength builds. Secondly, the effect of non-Vitality is very very minor. Tank dps isnt a huge enough impact to make a difference on DPS races if they go full on strength spec, and the mitigation you get from Strength/Dex is close to zero. Perhaps the only situation where as much damage/threat as possible would be desirable at the expense of other things could be in Turn 4.

If Strength increased your mitigation by a factor of 3-4 more than it does now, it might be worth considering. If tank threat was remotely an issue in the current content, it might be worth considering. If no bosses were bursty but tanks died due to healers going OOM or simply not having enough HPS to keep them up, then yes, strength/parry would take precedence. As it stands, you really can't stack enough Health because it's the Burst Damage that's the tank killer here, and for all situations where burst damage isnt a problem the values don't really justify stacking anything else than Vitality unless you're utterly focused on having the highest damage tank you can.

FF14 is an MMO with the "tanks die by burst damage" mechanic to its hard content, compounded by incredibly poor returns for mitigation and currently a balance of threat generation that makes aggro a non issue in 99% of cases. As a result, the only time you can argue -not- stacking Vitality (or EHP rather) is on content where there's virtually no chance of a tank death at all.

I think this is pretty much in line with what most people were thinking or saying in general, but I think you deserve some super kudos for saying it better than anyone else has.

[Avarice]

Got Allagan Blade tonight, shame I can't really keep it on until I get the Helm due to the drop in accuracy in comparison to Curtana +1 (which I regret making since it was literally just a week ago that I dropped the myths on it); oh well.

Todo:
Valor Legs (replace Allagan)
Allagan Feet (replace Valor)
Allagan Helm
Allagan Choker/Fending
Allagan Earrings/Fending
Allagan Shield (replace Holy Shield +1 - Accuracy)

RNG, please be nice next week.

[Obsidian]

I don't think it could be argued that more HP is useless as the more you have the larger the margin for error becomes for your healers (and your self, to an extent) which in turn increases the statistical success rate of your raid. However, it could certainly be argued that more HP isn't necessary and that increasing your own DPS also increases the statistical success rate of your raid.

You could swing it either way.

I personally prefer the higher HP pool.

I think it's important to consider the extra block/parry mitigation is only effective on things you can actually block/parry. There are a variety of attacks that bypass both, which skews things in favor of more HP.

[Eanae]

Having an Allagan helm drop would certainly be lovely. Or some accessories. Actually pulled 3 tank drops this week which is amazing. (Body, earrings, legs. I got legs). Getting the legs and Valor Hands this week makes me 2 accuracy short of turn 4 cap and quite a bit short of turn 5 cap at the moment though without using Allagan body. At least I have a use for it now I guess.

[Arximiro]

Got Allagan Blade tonight, shame I can't really keep it on until I get the Helm due to the drop in accuracy in comparison to Curtana +1 (which I regret making since it was literally just a week ago that I dropped the myths on it); oh well.

Todo:
Valor Legs (replace Allagan)
Allagan Feet (replace Valor)
Allagan Helm
Allagan Choker/Fending
Allagan Earrings/Fending
Allagan Shield (replace Holy Shield +1 - Accuracy)

RNG, please be nice next week.

Mitsukai! grats on the blade

[Viertel]

World of Warcraft saw an interesting shift between its tank philosophy after the second expansion. Around Black Temple/Sunwell time every tank was stuffing pure Stamina into every slot. Dodge/Parry/Block was nigh on useless, all that mattered was Health Pool (and armor, which you couldnt really increase). By the time Cataclysm came around most of the encounters had shifted a bit so your average tank just ensured they had a minimum amount of HP and then stuffed avoidance into everything so their healers didn't run out of mana.

Uh.... what World of Warcraft were *you* playing?

Spoiler: show

It certainly wasn't the one I played, because the primary method of gemming/gearing up was loading up on +defense skill and made nigh unstoppable as a tank. Dodge came right behind it due to the higher DR on parry (parry haste mechanics and all that) and stamina was in last place.

In fact, the gearing of +defense is the entire reason a month into Black Temple/Hyjal era Blizzard adjusted the rating of defense skill so that it wouldn't be such an effective method of gearing and dodge took over at that point (Warriors didn't even need to hit Shield Block anymore to reach that 102.4%, and why Illidan had his Sheer mechanic, but I guess you forgot all this). It was in Sunwell that shit was hitting so hard (Brutallus) that gemming avoidance became the primary method of overall survival and that's kinda stuck for a long, long time.

Increasing health's never been a major point in except in the beginning of an expansion when everything's thrown off and bare-minimum thresholds are needed again.

As far as FFXIV's concerned at least for the most part, unless you're tanking 8 stacked Cadecus on purpose, or two 4 stacked Dreadnaughts, any burst is almost always predicted and telegraphed way in advance. Thankfully it's not "Better have that fast casted stun ready because you got 0.25 seconds to get it off and live!" bullshit.

[GarbageNinga]

Thankfully it's not "Better have that fast casted stun ready because you got 0.25 seconds to get it off and live!" bullshit.

Which reminds me of pretty much my entire EQ career.

Rotation better be perfect or your all fucked and are going to spend 5 hours clearing trash again

[Khye]

Spoiler: show

It certainly wasn't the one I played, because the primary method of gemming/gearing up was loading up on +defense skill and made nigh unstoppable as a tank. Dodge came right behind it due to the higher DR on parry (parry haste mechanics and all that) and stamina was in last place.

In fact, the gearing of +defense is the entire reason a month into Black Temple/Hyjal era Blizzard adjusted the rating of defense skill so that it wouldn't be such an effective method of gearing and dodge took over at that point (Warriors didn't even need to hit Shield Block anymore to reach that 102.4%, and why Illidan had his Sheer mechanic, but I guess you forgot all this). It was in Sunwell that shit was hitting so hard (Brutallus) that gemming avoidance became the primary method of overall survival and that's kinda stuck for a long, long time.

Increasing health's never been a major point in except in the beginning of an expansion when everything's thrown off and bare-minimum thresholds are needed again.

As far as FFXIV's concerned at least for the most part, unless you're tanking 8 stacked Cadecus on purpose, or two 4 stacked Dreadnaughts, any burst is almost always predicted and telegraphed way in advance. Thankfully it's not "Better have that fast casted stun ready because you got 0.25 seconds to get it off and live!" bullshit.

Spoiler: show

You're right for the most part. The only time I remember Stam stacking was for ICC era. The more Stam the better. Since, there was the debuff that pretty much zeroed out your dodge. So when Cata came out it messed everyone up because they had to break the mentality of not stacking Stam. Which is the only time I can think that Stam stacking was important. I can't speak for MoP since I haven't been active during this expac.

[Don Katsu]

I went on some weird path by getting the body first then the sword. I do not have a coil group. I have not done turn 4. I have PUG 1-2.

So... This week I'm getting Valor Coronet and a melded Gryphonskin ring.

As for next week.. should I get hands or heros ring?

I'm pretty much stuck on turn 1 and 2 until I find a static.

[Raineer]

Hero's ring is still a great upgrade for the cost. It was my first L90 after HQ relics, despite requiring me to still look like a trashcan in DL.

[Jahaudant]

Todo:
Valor Legs (replace Allagan)
Allagan Feet (replace Valor)
Allagan Helm
Allagan Choker/Fending
Allagan Earrings/Fending
Allagan Shield (replace Holy Shield +1 - Accuracy)

RNG, please be nice next week.

Stop right there!

Use either Allagan Hands + Allagan Feet, or Valor Hands + Valor Feet.

If you want to really min-max for survivability you can get yourself a Hero's Bracelet to replace your Allagan, but on the plus side if you choose not to do that you can continue wearing your Holy Shield +1. Everything else you are wearing/planning on wearing is perfect.