Unlocked Empyrean WSs - Which will be good?

[dasva]

Seriously, what do you think it's going to let you enter and then immediately boot you out?

This is SE we are talking about...

[detlef]

How would that even work? The person who breaks the lamp has to enter by himself in the first place so how would it be possible to get kicked out?

[Sechs]

when VW was full going getting a empy to 99 did cost as much as getting a relic to 99

No?
Back when VW was in full power HMPs were 100k here (oscillating around that), and that alone is ~150mils.
Then you have Cinders, which were around 1mil each (another 60 mils).

Currency was no higher than 6k a coin (some higher, some lower, I'm making an average) and Marrows were uhm 8 mils? No higher than 10 anwyay.
Relic also have the big advantage that they require a numerically inferior expensive upgrades (marrows) and that you can completely solo all the currency gathering if you wish so.
Also, the abundance of the ingredients. Even during full VW power I'm not sure you'd be able to buy 1500 HMPs or 60 Cinders on the same day while I have no doubt you'd be able to get all the currency you need for a relic.

So no, even during those times Empies > Relics, altough I agree the difference was much smaller back then.

[NynJa]

did you just say you could buy ~16k currency in a day? I mean, shit, there was a lot of currency out there, but you wasnt buying all 16k in a day. (regardless of the fact it wouldnt matter since you need ~2 weeks on upgrade lockouts)

[Sechs]

Even if for retarded prices I'm pretty confident you might have been able to buy ~15k currency on those days, or at least get very very close to that. Not everyday of course, but on some days yes.
Sometimes you could even find 10k coins for sale on my server, for real prices. One of my LSmates at the time got even lucky enough to buy a Ranperre Goldpiece for like, what, 6 mils gil or something? Guy who sold it of course missed a 0 in the price but the point is that it wasn't that rare to see 10k coins for sale.
But even without that the amount of 100 coins was really high, and same goes for nq coins.

I doubt this has been ever been possible anytime, even with retarded prices, for Cinders/Plates.

[Fwahm]

I'd like to see your server, then. Back when CoP dynamis was filled to capacity nearly 24/7 on my server, you could never find more than 100-300 reasonably priced currency per day, just because there were so many other people snapping up the okay deals. This is of course disregarding people that would have 10 100s in their bazaar for double the market price, which isn't reasonable to count at all.

[dasva]

I remember seeing enough to possibly buy enough in a day but yeah some were crazy priced. I normally only picked up like 6-800 or so on average when I was buying my way thru relics. A few days I might only see 100-200 singles sometimes I might find 13 100s at a reasonable price. And sometimes I might find a whole bunch only to find someone else bought them before me lol

[Darkmagi]

I was able to buy all of my currency for ragnarok in a day after I sold my plates because of ukko nerf lol. I also bought like 15k alex in a day as well, but that may have just been good fortune.

[Byrthnoth]

Based on half an hour with the spreadsheets, in high buff situations Upheaval will be better than Ukko's Fury with Blood Rage down and Ukko's Fury will be better when it is up. With lower attack, Ukko's Fury will be better in both situations. Though we can't run any real numbers until we see their real base damages, I would be unsurprised to see Conqueror being up to 20% better than Ukon in high buff situations.

[Darkmagi]

How does rogue's roll play into this?

[noodles355]

No?
Back when VW was in full power HMPs were 100k here (oscillating around that), and that alone is ~150mils.
Then you have Cinders, which were around 1mil each (another 60 mils).

Currency was no higher than 6k a coin (some higher, some lower, I'm making an average) and Marrows were uhm 8 mils? No higher than 10 anwyay.

You either server jumped or have a bad memory because when Voidwatch was going full force, plates dropped to around 70-80k on your server. At the same time, currency was closer to 7-8k (say 7k) a piece and plates were always hovering around 10mil. Getting them for 9mil was lucky. Dross was like 400k.

112,500,000 for plates.
Cinder Empy: 172.5mil
Relic: 155mil
Dross Empy: 136.5mil

Sechs, you seem to be over-exaggerating a lot. Stop it. The only way you could buy all the currency in a day as you suggest was by paying inflated prices, for example 9k/coin, or by being RETARDEDLY lucky. At 9k, a relic is looking at 185mil to complete - more than a cinder emp.

You also exaggerate about 10k pieces. You make them sound like they were everywhere. They just weren't. Not only that but they were always higher priced.

[NynJa]

Not to mention banking on finding a 10k piece missing a trailing 0 in a bazaar. Thats not happening to everyone loool

[Sechs]

plates dropped to around 70-80k on your server.

They did, for a while. Only to go back to 90-110 after.
I've been buying them for a long time since I usually take my good time with anything in this game, and I remember the pain of having to go back to those prices.

Currency was much lower than that before SoA came out, there was an abundance of currency. Of course the two things are linked, more offer, less demand, price goes down.
I remember the pain of seeing currency so low when I paid so much for my coins.
When I was on the last steps of my horn, forced to rebuy the 1200 coins I lost, Shells were no higher than 5k, usually lower. At that point currency had pretty much standardized and all coins were more or less the same price.
You could also find a wide offer of 100 coins and some rare (bit with realistic prices, not just bazaar showoff) 10k coins.

plates were always hovering around 10mil. Getting them for 9mil was lucky. Dross was like 400k.

Plates 10 mils? Lolwut?
And how does Dross matter? Don't think anybody mentioned Riftdross so far.

You also seem to forget how many people got Marrows by farming these with their LSs without paying a single gil (including you) whereas the same was of course much less common for the Empyreal materials, because of the chest drop system and because of the quantity required.
Relics have always been the easiest of the 3 even back then, it's not even a matter of opinions, check how many Relics you can see at level 99 and how many Empyreals.
Of course, the difference back then was definitely small compared to the huge one there is today.

Getting 15k currency in a day was rare, difficult, but possible. At worst it was very likely to get very close to that.
Good luck getting 1500 HMPs and 60 Cinders in a day instead.

[dasva]

Farming stuff for "0" gil isn't a real argument. It still has the value of the current market price

[Byrthnoth]

More napkin math with guestimated D values puts 2H DDs comfortably ahead of 1H DDs in high buff situations, but perhaps not as far ahead as they are right now. A 119 iLevel Ukon WAR will probably be less than 10% ahead of a 119 Terpsichore/Izhiikoh DNC in high buff situations. Box Step, Feather Step, Haste Samba, etc. Perhaps it would be worth using DNC again even in group events.

[dasva]

Would the dnc be better off single wielding since oa2-3 and already at 78% haste

[noodles355]

They did, for a while. Only to go back to 90-110 after.

Yes, towards the end of voidwatch when people stopped going... A time period not being discussed. This is the same time period you're thinking of when you remember dynamis prices. People are talking about when woidwatch was in full force, and at that time, when plates were 75kish, currency was 7k at least.

Secondly, plates for 10mil: Obviously that was a typo and I meant marrows. The fact you bring attention to it shows the lack of substance to your argument.

Thirdly, as dasva mentions, not a good argument.

Finally, the only way you'd get all your currency in a day would be by buying it all over the market price. I had mentioned this, but you chose to ignore it instead opting to repeat the base argument of "it is theoretically possible" which people already agree on. This again shows a lack of substance to your argument.

Back at it's prime you could also get plates/cinders in one day if you were lucky, but the same argument applies: It would take luck and it would involve paying way over the market price.

[Byrthnoth]

Would the dnc be better off single wielding since oa2-3 and already at 78% haste

Unless they boost OA2-3 further or add another common form of JA Haste/power up Haste Samba by 3%, no.

Edit: Increasing Haste Samba by 3% makes single-wielding essentially equivalent to dual wielding for Terpsichore. One of the major limitations of single-wielding Terpsichore on DNC is the lack of alternative TP gears. The best rings, for instance, are Epona's and Rajas. The best belt is still Windbuffet. The best earrings are still Steelflash/Bladeborn. The best body actually changes to Manibozho in most cases, but by and large the TP gear is exactly the same between dual wielding and single-wielding at the delay cap.

[Alistrianna]

No?
Even during full VW power I'm not sure you'd be able to buy 1500 HMPs or 60 Cinders on the same day while I have no doubt you'd be able to get all the currency you need for a relic.

I'm not sure this was the case on every server. The day I decided I wanted to get my Verethragna to 99, I bought 1500 plates and 60 cinders in 3 hours on Shiva. All of them were in normal prices ranges as well.

[dasva]

Unless they boost OA2-3 further or add another common form of JA Haste/power up Haste Samba by 3%, no.

Edit: Increasing Haste Samba by 3% makes single-wielding essentially equivalent to dual wielding for Terpsichore. One of the major limitations of single-wielding Terpsichore on DNC is the lack of alternative TP gears. The best rings, for instance, are Epona's and Rajas. The best belt is still Windbuffet. The best earrings are still Steelflash/Bladeborn. The best body actually changes to Manibozho in most cases, but by and large the TP gear is exactly the same between dual wielding and single-wielding at the delay cap.

Why 3%? With capped magic and gear haste and samba shouldn't you only need ~1.25 to cap total delay? And even then why would having the same attack speed but more attacks per hand and more tp per hit be equivalent? Is this like a highly nerfed dmg you using?