Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Malithar]

Assuming TP reset happens w/o the need for sleep to land (cause it will never land on anything that matters) it can only happen ever 38 seconds....basically worthless.

Amnesia/silence will never land on anything, if it does it'll wear off any boss in 1/2 a second and be totally meaningless unless you get super lucky and manage to get it to go off right as it charges a TP move magically stunning it.

I'm not seeing any functional debuffs. Leviathan and Shiva are better support than cait. Leviathan has AoE heal+Erase, Attack down, and slowga (that never lands ever) Shiva has EVD down and sleepga (that never lands on bosses) both have debuffs that are infinitely better then what cait has to bring to the table. Both are also avatars that can actually deal damage, unlike carbuncle and now cait.


Edit: Making another carbuncle is really just adding insult to injury. The BP choices are bad enough, no reason to gimp damage even more by making it on the level of carbuncle.

Loving the assumptions that the moves will never land on anything ever. Smn has a light based sleep now (as well as many other useful, albeit extremely situational BPs provided by Cait), which has always been accurate for any job with access. Maybe Tachi could speak up about the potency of other avatar debuffs, he's honestly about the only Smn I'd trust on any issue. Not some random spewing "QQ but the things will nevarz land!" Infact, think I remember Tachi mentioning using debuffs from Leviathan and other avatars in AAs, but maybe I'm mistaken. I'd imagine avatar magic acc has picked up considerably from all the updates to pets they've done, as well as the 119 sachet. Could always get Hag. +1 and aug it with Avatar MAcc as well!

Not saying I'm not disappointed by what Cait adds. However, as Spira and other's have pointed out, it's different enough from the current batch of avatars to find niches and uses. If you expected some game changing avatar that was suddenly amazing DPS or something, you're really playing the wrong job, IMO.

I'm seriously afraid that the overall cap you can hold for a single job is that high because of the cost for the last upgrades
I cannot see any other logical reason to make it that high.

It's possible, though not highly likely I guess, that it could be set so high so that as the system expands, you have points many points saved up from actually playing your job, allowing you to sort of future proof yourself, to a degree. It'd certainly be nice I think.

[Yugl]

Looking at the image, the "200 JP" value seems to be the storage cap. The actual number necessary to upgrade is unknown. If they increased the value by one for each upgrade, that would require 14.25mil CP. Since we don't know that or the rate of CP acquisition, it's difficult to say whether this is achievable for "a class I only leveled to do X event" player.

[Sechs]

It would be nice but it wouldn't be efficient.
Let's move away from the Players point of view and let's try to see things from dev's pov.
What is the Job Points system at the end of the day?

It's a type of content to keep player busy, happy and give them ways to sedate their power thirst, making them feel that they can slowly but constantly build up their own character's "power", their "growth".

So, from this PoV, would you want something that can be completed in a few weeks (after which people would come back at you bitching and moaning that there's nothing to do and demanding new content) or maybe something that takes a lot of time, that's somewhat fast at start but grows slower the more you dig into it?
And would you want people to "farm points in advance" and store 200 of them so that when you release new enhancements they can cap them in 5 minutes, making your efforts of "keeping them busy for a while" completely worthless?


So yes, if I were a dev I doubt I'd go that way.
Of course there has to be a compromise somewhere because if the system is too slow it just becomes frustrating and ends up annoying players who don't have enough patience for grinding.
I'm trying to convince myself being optimistic about it, but I really see very little reasons for them to be so kind towards us in this regard.

Also Matsui's sentence made me laugh where he said "you can farm it alone or in party like you always used to" but then you can't do it in Abyssea lolz

[Malithar]

Some interesting things that haven't been mentioned yet in those update notes. Looks like we're getting an Eastern Adoulin, Ru'lude Gardens, and 2x Whitegate Trusts. 2 more serpent generals, Maat or Esh'narl maybe, and...Arciela already? Really thought she'd end up holding out til near the end of the missions to trust. Maybe it's someone else, Run NPC maybe? lol

Wonder what the TH cap will be. They did say they wouldn't set it below what players can get with gear. Guess they could cap it at 7 yeah? Could do hands and feet then, and you'd cap with 1 proc, or use the TK and cap without having to proc.

New equipment rewards for Fishing RoEs? Maybe you won't have to bother with the chart quests for the rings anymore? <.<

New HP warps kinda caught me off guard too. There's no new WKRs or mission BCs being added. I wonder where they're adding HPs to? Outside of Delve entrances maybe?

[Byrthnoth]

Hopefully they hook the telecrystals up to the homepoint network.

[Sechs]

Wonder what the TH cap will be. They did say they wouldn't set it below what players can get with gear. Guess they could cap it at 7 yeah? Could do hands and feet then, and you'd cap with 1 proc, or use the TK and cap without having to proc.

Uh? Did I misread what they wrote?
I thought they were talking about GEAR cap, i.e. cap on the amount of TH+ you can get from gear.
This is a premise to the addition of further TH+ gear.
That way people will be able to CHOOSE which TH+ gear they prefer, and it will be useless to use them all (bye bye Thief's Knife).

Made sense to me. Where did you read about an overall cap?


@Byrth
I was thinkin about that the other day, would be nice!
I kinda want a telepoint in Outer ra'kaznar too. Ok we'll be able to warp from "inside" to "entrance", but once you're at entrance so what? You're still left to zoning back into Kamir if you wanna warp with means other than spells or consumables...

[Malithar]

An overall cap made sense to me, in pretty much the exact opposite way that only a gear cap made sense to you. Bout to head to bed or I'd track down their postings about it and see which they meant.

Reason I was thinking an overall cap was because they mentioned the cap would not be set below the current amount of TH gear that players can wear. So if it won't be set below that number, then it'd have to be above, or exactly that number. Exact would kinda kill the point of procs, while being one above would allow you to wear full TH gear to be at cap, wear useful DD options (hands/feet) and proc once to cap, or if you lack the gear, you could still proc 4 times and cap.

Although thinking on it again, I can imagine there would be rage from some players who can no longer spend forever proccing up to TH10 or whatever.

[Yugl]

It would be nice but it wouldn't be efficient.
Let's move away from the Players point of view and let's try to see things from dev's pov.
What is the Job Points system at the end of the day?

It's a type of content to keep player busy, happy and give them ways to sedate their power thirst, making them feel that they can slowly but constantly build up their own character's "power", their "growth".

So, from this PoV, would you want something that can be completed in a few weeks (after which people would come back at you bitching and moaning that there's nothing to do and demanding new content) or maybe something that takes a lot of time, that's somewhat fast at start but grows slower the more you dig into it?
And would you want people to "farm points in advance" and store 200 of them so that when you release new enhancements they can cap them in 5 minutes, making your efforts of "keeping them busy for a while" completely worthless?


So yes, if I were a dev I doubt I'd go that way.
Of course there has to be a compromise somewhere because if the system is too slow it just becomes frustrating and ends up annoying players who don't have enough patience for grinding.
I'm trying to convince myself being optimistic about it, but I really see very little reasons for them to be so kind towards us in this regard.

Also Matsui's sentence made me laugh where he said "you can farm it alone or in party like you always used to" but then you can't do it in Abyssea lolz

That's still speculation. Matsui himself has said he does not want to introduce content that obligates players to play as frequently as previous content. If we went by this statement, the appearance is significantly different. Not only would this need to fit within Matsui's "2h ish daily" mentality, but so would actual content. You don't know CP obtainment rate. You don't know JP investment rate. If you increase the point investment by one point per upgrade, then you need over 28mil CP for two skills. This is for one class. The point remains: We don't know.

[Sechs]

An overall cap made sense to me, in pretty much the exact opposite way that only a gear cap made sense to you.

You probably misunderstood me.
I meant to say that in that table they clearly talk about EQUIPMENT CAP.
Let me quote them

Set a limit on the effect of "Treasure Hunter" granted by equipment

Where do you see an overall cap on TH being mentioned? (altough I agree an overall cap would make sense as well, but you'd need both).
Basically I see it like this:
1) They want people to stop using Thief's Knife
2) They want to add more TH+ gear, but they're afriad THFs would feel forced to get them all and perma-equip them
3) They decided to put a cap on TH from Equipment so that you can actually have a meaningful choice and equip the TH pieces you like most, knowing that going over TH X will be meaningless.

That's still speculation.

Absolutely.
I was trying to usse logic to determine the probability of one thing rather than another, but of course we have very little data to base logic on.

Matsui himself has said he does not want to introduce content that obligates players to play as frequently as previous content.

True, but this could be easily solved if the Job Points system only give small increases and/or if they balance content by considering players to NOT have those enhancements.
That way people wouldn't feel "obliged"?

Either way, I wasn't advocating a long, insane, boring grind.
Quite the other way around.
I was just saying that, sadly, I *expect* it to be very grindy, more than I'd like it to be.
I'll be more than happy to be proved wrong, of course!

[arus2001]

Late to the party, but if JP requires specific mob kills per job, would almost prefer they just make it so you can get it killing that specific mob/family regardless of level relative to your own. The higher level would simply yield more by default. But yeah, basically dreading a neo-Collibri situation or even those where X job gets paired to an absolutely shitty mob type in either difficulty or representation around the world and is thus an order of magnitude harder to level (and get people to help level) as a result.

[Malithar]

You probably misunderstood me.
I meant to say that in that table they clearly talk about EQUIPMENT CAP.
Let me quote them

Set a limit on the effect of "Treasure Hunter" granted by equipment

Where do you see an overall cap on TH being mentioned? (altough I agree an overall cap would make sense as well, but you'd need both).
Basically I see it like this:
1) They want people to stop using Thief's Knife
2) They want to add more TH+ gear, but they're afriad THFs would feel forced to get them all and perma-equip them
3) They decided to put a cap on TH from Equipment so that you can actually have a meaningful choice and equip the TH pieces you like most, knowing that going over TH X will be meaningless.

Admittedly, I didn't read the comment on that table word for word, I was just all "oh, nifty they're adding it this update" since they made it sound like it would be a ways out when they talked about it the other day. I see what you're getting at with that table comment though. And really, idk what to make of it. Unless relic body/legs has +TH, or something from Delve has +TH, then there's no sensiable fix they're adding this update, without going against what they've said. IE, the cap won't be below our current highest amount of TH gear. So they cap it at 4, our current TH gear. What's that do now? Absolutely nothing, so I'm not sure what they're getting at.

[Stef]

Creation of new UI for job points

[Sechs]

then there's no sensiable fix they're adding this update

I get a hunch that the current cap from gear will be the same as it is now, which if I'm not wrong is +4 (+1 Knife, +2 hands, +1 feet).
Maybe some of the megaboss drops/accessories will have TH+, and very likely they're gonna put at least +2 on the Empy feet. Don't forget that Reforged empyreal armor is coming very soon, dunno when but I'd say more or less by june?
It *might* be a useless change this patch (if there is no new th+ gear from Delve) but it won't really affect players either way for now, and it's more something "for the future". Even if too early, I don't really see reasons to whine at it, or is there some that I missed maybe?

[geno3302]

Smn has a light based sleep now.

We have an Ice based sleep too. It doesn't land on delve bosses.

Maybe Tachi could speak up about the potency of other avatar debuffs, he's honestly about the only Smn I'd trust on any issue. Not some random spewing "QQ but the things will nevarz land!" Infact, think I remember Tachi mentioning using debuffs from Leviathan and other avatars in AAs, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Diamond Storm and Spring water do land on most things. Most debuffs pre-76, especially those you'd actually want to use, do not land on most significant things. DS and SW do not however give amnesia. The debuff will not land because if it lasts for any significant amount of time you would just bring 2-3 SMN and amnesia/silence lock all bosses forever.

The sleep will also not land unless SMN gets Troubadour for avatars, hence hoping that the TP reset is independent of the sleep effect. Still useless for a number of reasons:
1) With so many DDs feeding TP the mob will get TP back in a few seconds
2) It is a BP: Rage not a BP: Ward. So not only have you wasted time and mana on a nearly worthless BP, you also used your BP: Rage timer so you can't do dmg.

I don't blame you for not having faith in me, you don't know me ;p I've been a summoner since before NA release, first job to 75 and currently working towards nirvana. I know the job, and what it can do, quite well.

I'd imagine avatar magic acc has picked up considerably from all the updates to pets they've done, as well as the 119 sachet. Could always get Hag. +1 and aug it with Avatar MAcc as well!

Each point of SMN skill over the cap adds to M.ACC and ACC for BPs. I have no idea if there is a cap because it's never been tested afaik. What I can tell you is that even with over 100 SMN skill past cap, sleepga and slowga still wont land.

Not saying I'm not disappointed by what Cait adds. However, as Spira and other's have pointed out, it's different enough from the current batch of avatars to find niches and uses. If you expected some game changing avatar that was suddenly amazing DPS or something, you're really playing the wrong job, IMO.

Shit dude....I was expecting another diabolos: kinda useful abilities but kinda sucks or another Fenrir: kinda useful and does ok dmg.
Never in my dreams did I even consider another carbuncle a possibility....I mean carbuncle is just so god damn weak lol.
What we got is something that has less uses than the two of them and deals less dmg.

Why not just give us cait with his crap situational BPs but also do dmg like a celestial avatar or at the least diabolos/fenrir. There's no reason he needs to be a carbuncle.

[dasva]

Admittedly, I didn't read the comment on that table word for word, I was just all "oh, nifty they're adding it this update" since they made it sound like it would be a ways out when they talked about it the other day. I see what you're getting at with that table comment though. And really, idk what to make of it. Unless relic body/legs has +TH, or something from Delve has +TH, then there's no sensiable fix they're adding this update, without going against what they've said. IE, the cap won't be below our current highest amount of TH gear. So they cap it at 4, our current TH gear. What's that do now? Absolutely nothing, so I'm not sure what they're getting at.

They want to add more is the point. But they don't want people to forever have to wear gimp gear jn order to proc but not even hit the mob. Here is hoping for th throwing item!!! Also who is to say it wont be 3? Also by capping gear they will be effectively capped max th since you can only upgrade so many times. So given the weird way they word things they could have been talking about both caps or something.

[dasva]

Each point of SMN skill over the cap adds to M.ACC and ACC for BPs. I have no idea if there is a cap because it's never been tested afaik. What I can tell you is that even with over 100 SMN skill past cap, sleepga and slowga still wont land.
.

clearly it's time for nirvana seraphcaller and full pet macc hagondes on top of all that smn skill!

[NynJa]

We have an Ice based sleep too. It doesn't land on delve bosses.

Did you seriously just say that? Shiva's sleepga is not ice based...

[Karbuncle]

Yah, Shiva's sleepga is Darkness based for some reason. I guess they didnt want to bother changing the Icon to Darkness when it was Shiva, nor did they have the ability to make it ice based back then or thought BALANCE or some blah blah.

[geno3302]

Did you seriously just say that? Shiva's sleepga is not ice based...

Really? I was told it was ice based like 10 years ago, that's why it lands on undead.

[dasva]

Really? I was told it was ice based like 10 years ago, that's why it lands on undead.

Has it always landed on undead or just the last um 6 years or so? Whenever the whole immune message thing was added

Also on the whole wether it will land without sleep I'm fairly certain light of penance is all or nothing though that might partly be because it's gaze. Also we get feather tickle and drk gets absorb tp and I've tried using them all to help in fights and even non engaged fights with low tp feed it never seemed that effective against most nms. Probably because tbey usually have regain or some kind of crazy store tp and partial resist/reduced potency