Dev Tracker: Discussion

[dasva]

I'm not so sure monsters follow player skills by job. For example, Fomor BLMs are BLM/BLM, I believe, and yet they use great swords with comparable attack and accuracy as other, more normal weapon fomors.

Are you really sure they are blm/blm and not blm/war or blm/drk though? Pretty sure I've seen them double attack. And I believe the reason SE gave for weird combos like war/blm in monstrosity is that that is what the mobs are. Probably an easy way to ensure even blm mobs melee good. It should also be noted that even blm has a B- in staff which isn't that far off the others. Enough so where it would be kinda hard without serious parses

[Anomie]

Aren't a good majority of the mobs in the game /war?

I know at least a high percentage of not-nm's are anyway. Would explain the tactical use of any weapon. And they always seem to double attack.

[Sechs]

Shield/Harp still have it better than every other Empyrean.

I concur with that.
But:
1) Empyreans (and RMEs in general) got a similar counterpart (Oatixur, Tsurumaru, Iizikhoh etc). This doesn't happen for Daubla and Shields (and Horn too, altough I feel that has a smaller relevance)
2) RMEs are generally not as game-breaking/changing as Daubla (given possibly a few exceptions)

I think all the 4 "special" RMEs should be fixed somehow btw, and I've been saying that since like, forever, it's not a thing I'm starting to say it now.

• Aegis => I'm fine with Aegis keeping the throne of best MDT shield, but they should create more, weaker shields, easier to obtain, that allow to surpass the MDT cap. That would close the gap a bit while making so there's still motivation to get an Aegis.
• Ochain => First they should either nerf the 90/95 versions (thumb down) or buff the 95/99 versions so that there's real noticeable reasons to go past 90. And... and that's it, I think for the other aspects they moved in the right direction to reduce the gap for Ochain.
• Gjallarhorn => Of the 4 items, I think this is the one where I'm concerned the least. Yes gettin +4 is cool especially for stuff that has no instrument, but it's not such a huge leap forward as other instruments. Maybe they should release an "all songs +3" instrument to make things fair.
• Daurdabla => The +1 song instrument is a good step but I feel they have to do more, either nerf the overall number of songs which can be sung by a single BRD (capping it at 4?) or make so the overall availability of the 99 version can become higher than it currently is. Whatever they decide to do, in spite of this first good change, more steps have to be made imho.

And that's it.

[fantasticdan]

I really doubt mobs use individual weapon skill stats. They probably just have generic melee skill/ranged skill that differs by job/race/etc.

[Martel]

I think all the 4 "special" RMEs should be fixed somehow btw, and I've been saying that since like, forever, it's not a thing I'm starting to say it now.

• Aegis => I'm fine with Aegis keeping the throne of best MDT shield, but they should create more, weaker shields, easier to obtain, that allow to surpass the MDT cap. That would close the gap a bit while making so there's still motivation to get an Aegis.
• Ochain => First they should either nerf the 90/95 versions (thumb down) or buff the 95/99 versions so that there's real noticeable reasons to go past 90. And... and that's it, I think for the other aspects they moved in the right direction to reduce the gap for Ochain.

And that's it.

Aegis : Thing is, any Ilvl shield added now, that broke the MDT cap, would inevitably be superior to Aegis physically. If they narrowed the MDT gap enough then the new shield would surpass Aegis in overall utility. Having both moderate cap breaking MDT, AND superior physical defenses. Aegis might keep it's MDT throne, but it'd be a wobbly throne

Ochain : Making players do HMP+dross just to catch Ochain up to how it used to be would be a legitimate reason to rage quit. But at the same time, I can't see SE buffing 95/99 Ochain, when they've been actively working to close the gap between Ochain and other shields. I'd say they've been adding stronger shield options specifically to avoid nerfing Ochain. 'Cause it certainly woulda been easier to adjust 1 shield then to add an array of new ones that bridged the gap to Ochian.

[Sechs]

Aegis : Thing is, any Ilvl shield added now, that broke the MDT cap, would inevitably be superior to Aegis physically. If they narrowed the MDT gap enough then the new shield would surpass Aegis in overall utility.

I'm a bit skeptic on that "any".
Aegis still had the highest block rate after Ochain (before SoA of course) and still has one of the highest if not the highest damage reduction, is that not right?
They simply have to make sure that shields with these characteristics (MDT over cap) will be of the small format with a low block rate.
There, done it.
And about the narrowing too much I agree with you, and that's why they need to find a sweet spot that's relevant enough but not high enough to get close to Aegis. (altough, if we want to be fair, other RME are really close to the new options, some are even better, which is sad from my pov so I'm hoping this won't happen for Aegis, but it doesn't change the fact that something has to be done for Aegis, imho)

Ochain : Making players do HMP+dross just to catch Ochain up to how it used to be would be a legitimate reason to rage quit.

I concur, and that's why I wrote "thumb down". I'd rather have them give a buff on the 95/99 versions. Dunno what, but something about higher def/vit maybe? Or stick some +shield skill in there, and some +hp or stuff like that.
It's pretty ridiculous when you think about the difference between 90>99 Ochain and 90>99 Daurdabla, for instance.

I see your concern though, they're very worried about Ochain being too powerful so buffing the 95/99 version isn't likely.
Maye they could do a compromise between these two things?

I dunno, compared to Aegis and Daurdabla, Ochain is kinda in a nice position already if we consider the other available options. The only really ridiculous thing is the 90>99 issue. It would be like having a 4 songs Daurdabla at level 90 and having 95/99 just add song duration.

[Kincard]

Aegis probably isn't going to get anything because they're intent on making it so their new job can succeed. Gjallarhorn has always been good but never really "broken". Really, neither of the relics were ever broken, even back when they were introduced and they were undeniably the best items of their class, you wouldn't be able to just fall asleep at the wheel and tank an army like you can with Ochain, and an extra +1 on songs made you like +10% better than most Bards, if even that (notable exception in Ballad), whereas Daurdabla made you from 50% to 100% more effective than a Bard without one.

Ochain/Daurdabla were dumb ideas from the get-go (game balance wise), they were so broken they actually made them exceptions when they outdated every other RME because it was unthinkable to create items better than them. They were fun to play with when they first got released but they were obviously not thinking of any long-term effects when they made them. Can't put the genie back in the bottle, though, and they have to avoid nerfing them otherwise people would get pissed, so here we are. The alternative +1 song instrument is about the best thing they could do at this point, which is why I'm confused why anybody would complain about it. Asking for them to lower the 90/95 trials wouldn't make sense either, because the whole reason they're handling it this way instead of the obvious route of just nerfing Daurdabla is to please all the career BRDs that dumped a load of time into getting their Harp to 99.

[Bukadan]

with the amount of underutilized aegis/daurd's ive seen in public surpassing the correctly utilized ones now, i can safely say that there is a good chance that even with mediocre gap shrinkage equipment youll see players with that "new equipment" wanted more than those idiots who just sing all 3-4 songs in daurd and afk or paladins who dont even have proper gear on for each shield. basically im down for anything that keeps those people away from me. i mean come on: "what are dummy songs?" or pld taking 2k dmg from a cloudsplitter IN aegis.

[Sechs]

Aegis probably isn't going to get anything because they're intent on making it so their new job can succeed.

You mean RUN? Wouldn't that be EXACTELY the reason why they have to do something instead?
As I imagined a couple of additional shields with MDT which can go beyond the cap, at the same time I imagined a couple of RUN exclusive items which can do the same (grips, ammo, whatever).
Altough giving straight "MDT over cap" to RUN wouldn't probably be the right solution, but I'm sure you got what I mean.

Can't put the genie back in the bottle, though

You totally can, other games did it and I'm sure other will in the future.
You have to be particularly confident about your game and its future to do that though and I'm not really sure that's FFXI's current situation

which is why I'm confused why anybody would complain about it.

I'm pretty sure you perfectly know why people (not that many anyway?) are complaining about it.
Wether their complaint is rightful or out of place is another story.
I don't see it particularly different from any other complaint we've seen in the past when a "difficult to obtain" item that's been a standard for some times gets replaced/rivaled by another new one and easier to obtain. Same old story, history repeats? Nothing new under the horizon.

Asking for them to lower the 90/95 trials wouldn't make sense either

Well, yes and no.
On one hand it doesn't make much sense because it would affect all empyreals and not just Daurdabla.
But while appearently wrong, I don't see anything wrong with this. Why must relics be so insanely easier/cheaper than empys to complete? Granted that reaching perfect equality is pure utopia, easining up a bit the requirements for Empy and Mythics doesn't seem particularly wrong to me.
Back to Daubla topic now:

because the whole reason they're handling it this way instead of the obvious route of just nerfing Daurdabla is to please all the career BRDs that dumped a load of time into getting their Harp to 99.

Well you said it yourself, just like I did.
Daurdabla 90/99 are too broken, period.
Since they don't want to nerf them (too much time has passed, I agree a nerf would be completely out of place) they have to go another route. Adding a +1 instrument is a very good direction to go, it's just that it's not enough.
The gap closes a bit, but it needs to be closed more.
I have absolutely no clue how they could close it furtherly, it's harder with a situation like this than it is with a shield or a weapon (where you have a whole lot of "shades" in between).
Maybe they can "nerf" BRD instead of Daurdabla 99? Really, I cannot imagine what they could do but they have to do something, imho.

[Martel]

I'm a bit skeptic on that "any".
Aegis still had the highest block rate after Ochain (before SoA of course) and still has one of the highest if not the highest damage reduction, is that not right?

Before SoA, there was one PLD wearable shield with skill+ on it, and it was a crappy low def size 2 shield.

Aegis certainly was on top before Ochain. But it's block rate advantage was only 5% over size 3 shields. The block dmg advantage was larger. With Aegis being at -75%(This is the pre shield def bonus value) compared to say, Koenig shield's -64%(a 28 def shield.)

But ilvl shield get impressive defense values. Even a 113 shield like Steadfast get 50 def. That defense makes steadfast exactly match Aegis' block dmg-, and it's +85 skill blows away Aegis' 5% block rate advantage.

Sure, any ilvl shield added might not be better. After all there are mage shield like sors, or DD shields like kaidate that PLD can also wear. But that suck defensively.

But any size 3, ilvl 113~ shield has a very high chance of being physically superior to Aegis. And I'd expect any thing made to compete with Aegis' MDT to be 119 anyway.

I concur, and that's why I wrote "thumb down". I'd rather have them give a buff on the 95/99 versions. Dunno what, but something about higher def/vit maybe? Or stick some +shield skill in there, and some +hp or stuff like that.
It's pretty ridiculous when you think about the difference between 90>99 Ochain and 90>99 Daurdabla, for instance.

More def would probably be the best buff for Ochain. It's biggest weakness atm is that it has comparatively lower block dmg- than other shields. Ochain -66%. Aegis -81%, Killedar -86%. etc. A decent chunk of def would help that issue.

Not that I object to skill+ or anything. Making Ochain cap block rate on everything would be fine with me. XD But DEF would eb the more potent stat here.

Oh also, Some enmity+ would be nice on both shields, in light of the adjustments to enmity+ gear.

[Malithar]

Been meaning to ask about this, but kept forgetting. Anyone have any idea what this means in the update notes?

March Vana'diel Tribune Chronicles book bonus item Create equipment data Create new graphics

Wasn't aware of a Tribue Chronicles book. JP onry I'm guessing?

[Sechs]

JP only, been tryin to buy one myself but on Amazon.co.jp (very cheap) they don't ship to my country.
Found another one on ebay but for a retardedly high price (almost 6 times the price of the one on Amazon)

[Malithar]

This? Googled it before posting, but didn't think to check Amazon directly. Google Translate kinda butchers the description but it says:

Favorite book book sale was recorded in a book the "Vana'diel Tribune!" from the service at the start of "Final Fantasy XI", incident or event, the knowledge and social conditions of Vana'diel in it has been communicated to the adventurers, " Vana'diel Tribune ". From the staff, the vast topics that more than the total number 320 favorite book of luxurious specifications that book for the first time along with the comment. Was published in the Final Fantasy XI official site recording and popular work of "reading" article, also "Fragments of Ado~urin" of FREE! ■ "Special Gift Vana'diel Tribune weapon set" campaign code with! [set contents] camera gun that mimics the "Dekazumu MK-XI" spear both hands in imitation of the pen "ex trio"

Fragments of Adoulin, special Vana'diel Tribune weapon set, camera gun, and the Decazoom Mk-XI, the reason those lvl 1 bullets were made all jobs I guess. Wonder what other weapons/items there are.

[dasva]

I concur, and that's why I wrote "thumb down". I'd rather have them give a buff on the 95/99 versions. Dunno what, but something about higher def/vit maybe? Or stick some +shield skill in there, and some +hp or stuff like that.
It's pretty ridiculous when you think about the difference between 90>99 Ochain and 90>99 Daurdabla, for instance.

I see your concern though, they're very worried about Ochain being too powerful so buffing the 95/99 version isn't likely.
Maye they could do a compromise between these two things?

Vit wont do anything for it which is why the added vit from 95 and 99 trials don't mean jack. Def would like I suggested earlier 5-10 def per trial would be enough to encourage people to trial without making it omfg that's too insane. Relatively speaking it's a smaller jump than harp. Shield skill wouldn't do much since Ochain is still essentially more or less capped blockrate on most stuff it's just the dmg blocked is so damn low compared to other options. Maybe add some in with the def to keep ochain current with regards to future content. Hp might help if it was in huge amounts like 500 or so to actually be worth it to use over another shield that has similar dmg blocked and 80 hp and 7 pdt.


The thing is is that it is really just there preceptions of ochain. In all reality it's on the verge of being surpassed anyways. Situationally already is. Any nerf to it's current level of utility would most likely completely push things in favor of Killedar. And then we'd have the whole easily obtained delve items completely surpassing rems debaucle again except now everyone already has it and this one could be bought easy and SE has flat out said the solution they made for the weapons wont happen to shield/instrument. Definitely rage quit time if they nerfed it

[Priran]

This? Googled it before posting, but didn't think to check Amazon directly. Google Translate kinda butchers the description but it says:



Fragments of Adoulin, special Vana'diel Tribune weapon set, camera gun, and the Decazoom Mk-XI, the reason those lvl 1 bullets were made all jobs I guess. Wonder what other weapons/items there are.

there's a polearm that looks like a fountain pen

[Damane]

Before SoA, there was one PLD wearable shield with skill+ on it, and it was a crappy low def size 2 shield.

Aegis certainly was on top before Ochain. But it's block rate advantage was only 5% over size 3 shields. The block dmg advantage was larger. With Aegis being at -75%(This is the pre shield def bonus value) compared to say, Koenig shield's -64%(a 28 def shield.)

But ilvl shield get impressive defense values. Even a 113 shield like Steadfast get 50 def. That defense makes steadfast exactly match Aegis' block dmg-, and it's +85 skill blows away Aegis' 5% block rate advantage.

Sure, any ilvl shield added might not be better. After all there are mage shield like sors, or DD shields like kaidate that PLD can also wear. But that suck defensively.

But any size 3, ilvl 113~ shield has a very high chance of being physically superior to Aegis. And I'd expect any thing made to compete with Aegis' MDT to be 119 anyway.

More def would probably be the best buff for Ochain. It's biggest weakness atm is that it has comparatively lower block dmg- than other shields. Ochain -66%. Aegis -81%, Killedar -86%. etc. A decent chunk of def would help that issue.

Not that I object to skill+ or anything. Making Ochain cap block rate on everything would be fine with me. XD But DEF would eb the more potent stat here.

Oh also, Some enmity+ would be nice on both shields, in light of the adjustments to enmity+ gear.

in other words if SE wanted to fix RUN they would need to add a parry rate that equals or surpasses current aegis damage mitgation and a undispelleble valliance effect that works on each rune (for 3 elementals) and surpasses the MDT cap for the same amount to surpass or get close to aegis. what amount of parry rate would one need to get the same amount of damage mitgation as aegis on high lvl stuff?

[dasva]

in other words if SE wanted to fix RUN they would need to add a parry rate that equals or surpasses current aegis damage mitgation and a undispelleble valliance effect that works on each rune (for 3 elementals) and surpasses the MDT cap for the same amount to surpass or get close to aegis. what amount of parry rate would one need to get the same amount of damage mitgation as aegis on high lvl stuff?

Parry rate is one way for physcialy. Undispellable vallaince should've been a no brainer from the start. I think you are trying to say make it so each rune gives the effect of 3 for vallaince... which might be a bit much. Vallaince already does surpass the mdt sorta. Right now I'm not sure if they fixed the merits or not. If they have then run takes double the dmg before you factor in resist. If they fixed it it will take 1.6 times as much. With even a somewhat small increase in resist rate probably less overall. I'd reckon about 50% would be similar on high content nit factoring in reprisal... but if you do that might have to try and figure out how to factor in foil and the better evasion/swordplay

All that said RUN doesn't have to have equal or better dmg reduction capabilities to pld to be preferable. Just needs a decent enough survivabilty over other jobs while being better at some other things. Like right now it takes less than half the magic dmg than non aegis players and already has nice evasion foil parry and flash spamming. Just need to bump that up a bit. Then it's already much better enmity gain and DD capabilities not to mention status resist will make it preferable where you need something that tanks better than non pld but don't need the full you shall not pass of a pimped pld. Fixing the merits if not already done, making it harder to dispel ie about as common as plds get stripped of aegis and a moderate increase parrying (maybe just make the merit abilty full timeable) could make it a useable magic tank. Cures and putting runes on some kind of charge basis and being able to have vallaince and vallation up at same time for different elements wouldn't hurt either.

[Martel]

Thing you have to realized, is that Aegis' physical damage mitigation sucks on high level enemies. <,<;;

In my highest level test as of yet, level 111, Aegis has 34.54% block rate. With -81% dmg on block, this gets you 27.9% overall damage reduction. Call it 28% for simplicity. Of reference Ochain had -60%, and killedar -40% overall damage reduction on the same mobs.

So, since a parry is effectively -100% dmg, you'd need a 28% parry rate to match Aegis' physical defenses vs 111 mobs. I haven't tested RUN parry rates on 111 level mobs, but that doesn't sound like an unreachable value.

[Tarage]

That SMN body is pretty nice... but it's gonna be a bitch and a half to get the upgrade material...

[Teryu]

I like how they put a comparison of a mage body next to a melee body as if to say "This is how little we think or you".