Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Damane]

For bosses and higher sub-bosses that are 10 levels above you, not fodder. You shouldnt need madrigal and sushi to hit fodder. You shouldnt need your full macc set to get resisted (I'm not including innate resistance) debuffing or nuking fodder. I'm not saying you need 0 acc in gear, or 0 macc, to land stuff, but you shouldnt be overkilling the stat just to miss/get resisted.

adoulin mobs have no lvl difference penalty as far as i know, so what lvl they are doesnt matter, lvl 126 just indicates its much higher lvl then you are, which means proper gearing in those area. I would have agreed with you if it was on originals areas, but adoulin mobs dont follow the same rule. and as said i have no problem debuffing them with my m.acc set.

[Revati]

Does anyone at SE know anything about game mechanics? Geo obviously needs geo haste to be as good as brd and they're like you can nuke stuff :Q.

[CDF]

adoulin mobs have no lvl difference penalty as far as i know, so what lvl they are doesnt matter, lvl 126 just indicates its much higher lvl then you are, which means proper gearing in those area. I would have agreed with you if it was on originals areas, but adoulin mobs dont follow the same rule. and as said i have no problem debuffing them with my m.acc set.

It is thought that the mob level is still checked against real level (99) although I can't find a source. Edit: actually there is no level correction in Adoulin (and presumably rehashed battlefields as well).

Today even if you had 5/5 Hagondes +1 with "maximum potential" reflective of the item level (augmented for MAB because why would you play RNG with wailing stones for magic accuracy when Artsieq is available?) and a decent magic accuracy augment on a Lehbrailg +2 (equipment representative of a level 119 character) you will still probably get a shit-ton of resists nuking (betting 5-10% non-resist rate) on a level 126 worm, whereas you wouldn't have any resist issues aside from accumulating resistance of enfeebles (ex: Azeman and silence from magic spell) in Delve 2.0 (level 128 content) until T4/T5/mega boss.

Contrast that with the typical scenario back at level 75 of meriting on Ebony Puddings (level 79-81)--enfeebling or elemental resists were not an issue. In the past one wasn't rocking 100+ magic accuracy from equipment (because that much wasn't even available) just to avoid elemental resists.

[dasva]

i didnt notice much resistent on fodder mobs in dho gates. yes nukes dont do as much dmg, but thats like at llvl 75 trying to nuke donw IT++++ or so. but enfeebs landed fine (assuming you havea full m.acc debuff set), i think people forget this isnt anymore like when they applied + skill to weapons. we are back on square 1 where an m.acc set is kinda needed to land stuff reliable. The + skill on the weapons is just to bring you up skill wise as if you lvl to 119, the rest has to come from gear.

5-7 levels higher is not IT++++ unless you mean cons high evasion/def when you are on a mage job with no att or acc lol. But that is normal xp mob range back in the day. And people didn't need full acc sets, madrigal or sushi to cap acc on most of them. Pizza and mixed gear that had some acc was enough for most to at least con low evasion. The rest were specific evasive jobs like nin/thf. Meanwhile with sushi in full 119 gear with double SV mad the 126 worms I still con high evasion. For a macc example puddings were a common staple for nukers to xp on back in the day. They 75-80 but even at 70 I had no problem with resists in full dmg gear for nukes. And certainly didn't need a real macc set to land debuffs on them even as a blm.

Also should note that back at 75 you had to have at least 8 level difference to con IT. And generally speaking as level rose it took a higher level difference to get the same con probably because higher level differences became easier to overcome. So in all reality a level 126 mob should be mid VT to a level 119

[Alistrianna]

Aren't the mobs base statistics for those levels also rather high? Iirc someone tested those high level worms to have anywhere from 261~281 INT depending on its level.

[JSHidaka]

5-7 levels higher is not IT++++ unless you mean cons high evasion/def when you are on a mage job with no att or acc lol. But that is normal xp mob range back in the day. And people didn't need full acc sets, madrigal or sushi to cap acc on most of them. Pizza and mixed gear that had some acc was enough for most to at least con low evasion. The rest were specific evasive jobs like nin/thf. Meanwhile with sushi in full 119 gear with double SV mad the 126 worms I still con high evasion. For a macc example puddings were a common staple for nukers to xp on back in the day. They 75-80 but even at 70 I had no problem with resists in full dmg gear for nukes. And certainly didn't need a real macc set to land debuffs on them even as a blm.

Also should note that back at 75 you had to have at least 8 level difference to con IT. And generally speaking as level rose it took a higher level difference to get the same con probably because higher level differences became easier to overcome. So in all reality a level 126 mob should be mid VT to a level 119

The thing that defines if a mob is t/vt/it isn't lineal, not the same for every level...

Before ilvl, 104 mobs were IT or 103 just 4-5 lvl more

So 124 mobs are IT for 119... And 126 too hard, those rabbit there can get up to 128(or battlemod say that on /check) ... And in full acc set, sushi, songs, rolls and feint, like 1450 acc I had 50sh% acc(or less)... And I could hit a 126 decently

Those mobs only give me the idea that SE will raise ilvl cap at some point

[dasva]

Aren't the mobs base statistics for those levels also rather high? Iirc someone tested those high level worms to have anywhere from 261~281 INT depending on its level.

Very high especially considering level 99 worms were 124. Compared to non SoA mobs stats increase of SoA mobs at much faster rate.

[dasva]

The thing that defines if a mob is t/vt/it isn't lineal, not the same for every level...

Before ilvl, 104 mobs were IT or 103 just 4-5 lvl more

So 124 mobs are IT for 119... And 126 too hard, those rabbit there can get up to 128(or battlemod say that on /check) ... And in full acc set, sushi, songs, rolls and feint, like 1450 acc I had 50sh% acc(or less)... And I could hit a 126 decently

Those mobs only give me the idea that SE will raise ilvl cap at some point

I know it isn't linear and doesn't stay the same I even stated that it does tend to go up though or at least used to.

As far as conning, I'll try again when I have battlemod but last time I helped someone with G10 items went to gustav and it has mobs that are 100-105 and none of them were IT then and none are now even without ilvl gear.... mandies right outside of town were 100-103 and they never went past T and still don't without ilvl gear. So I really doubt 104s were IT

Though really what something checks as is really not the whole point of this. If anything if it is that high it's more of a symptom of the problem/point. The point is we fought mobs with this kind of level difference before just fine outside of nms and evasive job mobs. The even the thf/nin mamools that went to 83 could be capped with just a decent acc set and pizza on 2hd jobs. And 1-2 levels never made this kind of rediculous difference even with level correction. That stat increases they are making in soa in general and some specific sets of mobs in specific are kinda insane. Though part of this comes down to sure our gear is leveling up our base stats some but other things that we used aren't getting better. So we are doomed to fall behind even if they raised our and the mobs stats and the same rate as before just because of things like buffs, merits, food, debuffs for the most part staying the same

I hope it means they are raising it and soon. Killing mobs for 70 CP is kinda lame but spending a few minutes to kill one for 300 is too lol

[Prothescar]

Very high especially considering level 99 worms were 124. Compared to non SoA mobs stats increase of SoA mobs at much faster rate.

it's all to compensate for the removal of level correction, really. they said that adoulin monsters would have higher stats as a result of that change. still ridiculously high, but meh.

[NynJa]

The ilvl problem is compounded by this:
You currently TP in Iuitl vest with an acc+5 PDT+3 mod.
"You're having problems because your ilvl gear is outdated"
So you upgrade your Iuitl vest to +1, but you just cant get another +5 acc, and now you settle for acc+3.

You traded 2 acc away for 4 dex. Theres no acc gain on the base piece.
You are now rocking
DEF:108 HP+40 MP+39 STR+19 DEX+23 VIT+19 AGI+22 INT+18 MND+18 CHR+18 Accuracy+13 Ranged Accuracy+10 Evasion+33 Magic Evasion+52 "Magic Def. Bonus"+4 "Subtle Blow"+8 Haste+4% PDT-3

"you need to increase your ilvl some more"


So you upgrade Qaaxo Body to rank 15 Path B.
DEF:130 HP+59 MP+64 STR+26 DEX+24 VIT+21 AGI+23 INT+20 MND+20 CHR+20 Evasion+59 Magic Evasion+64 "Magic Def. Bonus"+6 Haste+4% "Triple Attack"+2% Accuracy+15 PDT-3

You've gone through all that to gain 5-6 acc through your ilvl gain from 113 to 119. So in the span that mobs gained 15 or so levels, whos evasion shot up so fucking hard that you went from needing no external acc buffs, to needing sushi AND double madrigal just to not cap hit rate (which means you're looking at atleast 140 evasion), its a LOT to overcome with such marginal upgrades.

Maybe I chose a shitty option and another job/slot would offer better/smarter acc upgrades.


even if its a byproduct of "accounting for no level correction", at the rate of 5 acc per slot per 6 levels, at ilvl 125, were gonna only get another 25 acc (+ whatever from weapon), so were probably need madrigal just for EM mobs.

[Sechs]

it's all to compensate for the removal of level correction, really. they said that adoulin monsters would have higher stats as a result of that change. still ridiculously high, but meh.

What's the point of removing level correction if you reproduce the same effect with the ilevel +skill system and with an insane increase in stats for mobs?
Don't both ways produce the same result in the end, more or less?


Anyway, anybody got what Camate meant with the STR thing concerning Vivacious Pulse? He even corrected his original post but I still don't get what he meant. (he probably doesn't know either because he doesn't know the job and just posts translated stuff from the JP board)



@Ninja
Maybe you chose a wrong example like you said, but I still think your point stands.
Let's look back at Adoulin launch. We didn't have + skill, acc was an issue on high level stuff (perhaps too much) but gearwise we were given pretty nice options.
The 3 basic Delve sets. Let's look at Manibozho for instance.
Pretty plain set, but it had lots of +att and +acc (and later on, small stats vomit).
The fact that an old 110 set like Manibozho still stands today in many slots when it comes to acc, tells a lot about how stingy they've been ever since in the +acc compartment.

What I'm trying to say is that back then when we needed a lot of accuracy, their provided us with a good itemization options on gear (wasn't enough, but it was a good attempt).
Atm we're slowly going back to that situation (altough not as dire) but gear options do not have such a good itemization increase as the ilevel difference should instead imply.

[Kincard]

What's the point of removing level correction if you reproduce the same effect with the ilevel +skill system and with an insane increase in stats for mobs?
Don't both ways produce the same result in the end, more or less?

To me it was always just a way of making the calculation in the game less convoluted, and the devs have an easier time balancing it the way they want to. Also allows devs to continue inflating the monster's level without ending up giving them ridiculous advantages over players because we'll be stuck at level 99 indefinitely.

Anyway, anybody got what Camate meant with the STR thing concerning Vivacious Pulse? He even corrected his original post but I still don't get what he meant.

It's just that increasing an element's corresponding stat increases the amount healed. Players already figured it out before we needed a dev post for it.

[Sechs]

To me it was always just a way of making the calculation in the game less convoluted, and the devs have an easier time balancing it the way they want to. Also allows devs to continue inflating the monster's level without ending up giving them ridiculous advantages over players because we'll be stuck at level 99 indefinitely.

I could see the simpler math being a thing, but then you have content added outside of Adoulin and Level correction still stands there... /shrugs

It's just that increasing an element's corresponding stat increases the amount healed. Players already figured it out before we needed a dev post for it.

I didn't know that.
So if I have Fire Runes up I should pump STR before using Pulse, if I have Thunder runes up I should pump DEX and so on?
But weren't different runes (or different combinations of them) supposed to produce different results? Like Dark runes restore MP. I was assuming there would have been some strange combination to remove certain debuffs or something...
Is using any of the other 7 runes (aside from Dark) the same?

[Prothescar]

What's the point of removing level correction if you reproduce the same effect with the ilevel +skill system and with an insane increase in stats for mobs?
Don't both ways produce the same result in the end, more or less?

It's possible to overcome stats. Sure, it may require loads of buffs, but it's possible. Level correction is a hard wall that can not be bypassed. It can only be reached, and in rare cases slightly mitigated.

[Damane]

The ilvl problem is compounded by this:
You currently TP in Iuitl vest with an acc+5 PDT+3 mod.
"You're having problems because your ilvl gear is outdated"
So you upgrade your Iuitl vest to +1, but you just cant get another +5 acc, and now you settle for acc+3.

You traded 2 acc away for 4 dex. Theres no acc gain on the base piece.
You are now rocking
DEF:108 HP+40 MP+39 STR+19 DEX+23 VIT+19 AGI+22 INT+18 MND+18 CHR+18 Accuracy+13 Ranged Accuracy+10 Evasion+33 Magic Evasion+52 "Magic Def. Bonus"+4 "Subtle Blow"+8 Haste+4% PDT-3

"you need to increase your ilvl some more"


So you upgrade Qaaxo Body to rank 15 Path B.
DEF:130 HP+59 MP+64 STR+26 DEX+24 VIT+21 AGI+23 INT+20 MND+20 CHR+20 Evasion+59 Magic Evasion+64 "Magic Def. Bonus"+6 Haste+4% "Triple Attack"+2% Accuracy+15 PDT-3

You've gone through all that to gain 5-6 acc through your ilvl gain from 113 to 119. So in the span that mobs gained 15 or so levels, whos evasion shot up so fucking hard that you went from needing no external acc buffs, to needing sushi AND double madrigal just to not cap hit rate (which means you're looking at atleast 140 evasion), its a LOT to overcome with such marginal upgrades.

Maybe I chose a shitty option and another job/slot would offer better/smarter acc upgrades.


even if its a byproduct of "accounting for no level correction", at the rate of 5 acc per slot per 6 levels, at ilvl 125, were gonna only get another 25 acc (+ whatever from weapon), so were probably need madrigal just for EM mobs.

again dont compare lvls of mobs in adoulin with lvls of mobs in old area. there is a reason why they remade the whole /check system. if the mobs tell you via check they are IT++++ they are, even if they are on paper only 126. people should also think about that olde mobs back then didnt account merits while the devs now said they design mobs WITH merits in mind, so we allways had an advantage back then, you also forget that WS got alot of buffs too etc. they are just accounting for everything and puttingvus back into 2005 considering those mobs

they even said those mobs were designed for PTs to gather job points. not duo or trio but a full PT. 3DDs 1healer 1brd 1cor or geo should have no problems killing them in reasonable time like meripo style

also you are compareing obly one armor slot xaddi gear gives you alot of accuracy options while maintaining haste cap. there is also some excellent grip neck back rings with accuracy on them. you just need to go all out on it, and no back then you didnt cap accuracy with just one brd either in good meripo camps the consens was allways to go double bard or cor plus brd. (not saying the difference was as high as now)

[NynJa]

Unless you have some old parses laying around, its gonna be a bunch of "he said she said" in regards to capping accuracy at colibri. Theres no way anyones memory is good enough to remember information like that from 6+ years ago

[Slycer]

iLVL compensation for accuracy (and attack) is supposed to happen primarily in the weapon slot, I believe, in addition to the lesser impact by increasing the relevant main attribute (DEX, etc.). Those marginal upgrades in "accuracy" in slots other than weapon are not supposed to make up for the full amount of evasion you'd have to compensate for as enemies rise in level, the vast majority of it would come from pushing a weapon up to 119.

Totally conjecture here, but if they did the math right, a level 119 weapon plus the DEX from having level 119 gear in all other slots, should put you at a normal hit rate (~80%) for a level 119 mob. So if you were fighting, say, a level 125 mob, you'd need to make up the difference because of their increased evasion with the "bonus" accuracy stats on gear. This is all assuming they had a rhyme or reason to the way stats increase with item level, of course.

[Alistrianna]

The only aspects of armor that seems to scale with any rhyme or reason though is the defensive aspects. For instance the Iuitl Vest +1 set offers +237 evasion, roughly on par with the +242 combat skill on most weapons. Magic Evasion seems to scale at a much higher rate. As far as other stats go however, Iuitl +1 set is barely any different from the NQ set. Most base stats only increase 1~3 points depending on the piece and the other stats, like Triple Attack, Accuracy, etc don't scale at all. Even the augments are unchanged with the exception that you can now get MDT as a third augment.

The only saving grace of the recently added Delve armor is that you don't have to sacrifice all the defensive aspects of 119 gear to hit the higher stuff if you invest in the accuracy paths.

[Slycer]

Right, but those base stats (evasion, magic evasion, all the main attributes, etc.) are what's intended to scale with IL which is why they vary so significantly. The other stats just go up marginally, like if you were to compare level 95 and level 99 armor with similar stats (pre-IL), the values of those stats wouldn't be much different generally speaking. Same thing here, with the non-base stats. Defensive stats (defense, magic defense, evasion, magic evasion) and main attributes (STR, DEX, etc., HP, MP) are what scales with IL on visible armor, offensive stats and combat skills (DMG, weapon skill, defensive combat skill, magic accuracy, magic attack) are what scales with IL on weapons.

[dasva]

What's the point of removing level correction if you reproduce the same effect with the ilevel +skill system and with an insane increase in stats for mobs?
Don't both ways produce the same result in the end, more or less?

It would do something similar if they used our average ilvl for it somehow. Which normally would be kinda complicated and lame but they do that now anyways with the check system and how much xp you get. The main difference is keeping the level correct system you couldn't overcome it with lots of buffs (at least ratio) but then again they make them so high now you kinda need them anyways so that's kinda a net not much change. Also you would get better comparatively just by putting on higher ilvl vs only specific stats. If they were really promoting gear progression that should be what they are going for instead of keeping older stuff based on their stats. This is somewhat accomplished via stat vomit... however with the way it is now given how the ilvls of gear doesn't correlate 100% to the stats on them it brings up things like already pointed out where you might not upgrade because you don't really get more acc out of it and yet somehow your ilvl is still too low. And then theres comparing different kinds. Like how mages tend to get tons more meva than non mages even though from what we know of leveling this isn't the case outside of from higher base stats in magic related stuff which the gear already has more in.