Dev Tracker: Discussion

[fantasticdan]

@proth

Do we know when they broke than? I know shell crusher, gaxe breaks, and those blu spells worked in the late toau era.

[Seha]

The first version of Fly High made it give a 0 sec recast(Chainspell) for "Jump" only. They said they'd revise it to affect all Jumps but impose a 5-10s recast on them to balance it out. I wonder which version they decided on.

Only Jump and only with reduced recast!

[Byrthnoth]

@proth

Do we know when they broke than? I know shell crusher, gaxe breaks, and those blu spells worked in the late toau era.

Well, I know that Metatron Torment has been broken since at least January of 2010: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/835...=1#post3367319
and possibly earlier: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/835...=1#post3184417

Full Break seems to have been in its "Evasion Down only" mode by August of 2011: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103...=1#post4753362


It's possible that they never worked the way we assumed and have always had a shitty chance to proc, but I know at least one Bravura that will swear his Metatron used to proc defense down essentially every use.

Here is some additional evidence that SE doesn't plan additional effects very well: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post423116

[Damane]

@proth

Do we know when they broke than? I know shell crusher, gaxe breaks, and those blu spells worked in the late toau era.

it was broken pre late toau era, i remember metatron torments def down almost never sticking on anything in a meripo pt, maybe once in a blue moon. My guess is they broke shit when they started to implement those gradual gravity sleep resist shits.

[Prothescar]

@proth

Do we know when they broke than? I know shell crusher, gaxe breaks, and those blu spells worked in the late toau era.

When people first started noticing it from my reports, it was several months after the first recordings. June 2011 or so is the earliest I have. Great Axe break WSs have always had flimsy accuracy, though. Most of the things that were affected were useless, so people either just didn't care or didn't pay much attention to what was posted. Either way, it's been an issue for a long time, several years now.

[Draylo]

Some of those new SP look great, can't wait to try them out.

[Ophannus]

So powerful jobs got powerful new abilities (SAM,DRK,WAR,RNG,WHM,Brd) and jobs that coulda used a good ability got crap? (RDM,THF,BLM,NIN)

Seriously drgs sp2 is we get to use regular Jump every 10 seconds instead of every 50 seconds and the sp lasts for 30s? Jump gives like 20 tp and does like 300dmg to delve nms and its slower than autoattack with embrava and marches...meanwhile wars can now do 8 hit fully critted upheavals for like 25k damage for like 45s

[Prothescar]

wars can now do 8 hit fully critted upheavals for like 25k damage for like 45s

[fantasticdan]

I was able to land gaxe breaks on sky gods, jailers, etc. in ToAU. Idk how accurate they were, but I saw the effects wear off enough to know they weren't near as bad as tourbillion/ageha/etc are now. No idea about metatron torment, I didn't know anyone with relic GA.

Did ageha ever work on live servers?

[Prothescar]

At one point yes, it did.

May be that they broke all of it when they did that massive enfeebling change in 2009.

[Ihina]

Are there even any SoA monsters to steal a SP ability from?

[Byrthnoth]

Are there even any SoA monsters to steal a SP ability from?

Maybe in the GEO/RUN AF fights? Otherwise no, these SP2s were obviously designed for the previous content where we had frequent SP abilities and immune monsters.

Edit: And I think the 2009 enfeebling change patch may have caused it, but it also could just be continuous, poor design.

[dasva]

So powerful jobs got powerful new abilities (SAM,DRK,WAR,RNG,WHM,Brd) and jobs that coulda used a good ability got crap? (RDM,THF,BLM,NIN)

Seriously drgs sp2 is we get to use regular Jump every 10 seconds instead of every 50 seconds and the sp lasts for 30s? Jump gives like 20 tp and does like 300dmg to delve nms and its slower than autoattack with embrava and marches...meanwhile wars can now do 8 hit fully critted upheavals for like 25k damage for like 45s

I kinda like blms reading back on camates post. supposedly it's supposed to be decent emnity and like perma elemental seal while up. I'm thinking the drg one might be a typo? I mean wasn't it supposed to work on other jumps before? If so could be halfway decent but obviously fully buffed situation not as good. But jumps never were as good during full haste anyways. Anyways upheaval will still be max 6 hits and based on the wording that wont be 100% of the time. They've mentioned before that the DA will follow normal multihit rules just gets a much higher proc rate so.

Side note though was it ever determined if the empyrean ws boost applied to all hits or just the first? If it's all KJ is looking rather sexy no?

[Cairthenn]

Ophannus, if you insist on complaining about Dragoon in every post, please know what you are talking about. It's getting excessively tiresome.

Spoiler: show

• There was no specification on the recast reduction or the duration.
• It was a great ability on the test server, especially with Ryunohige.
• There is a multi-attack limit on WS.

[Koyangi]

Side note though was it ever determined if the empyrean ws boost applied to all hits or just the first? If it's all KJ is looking rather sexy no?

What Empyrean WS boost, and what is KJ?

inb4 get better stunners or you should never fight anything without being at magic haste cap:

DRG new 1hr is great in lower haste situations (it should include spirit and soul jump from initial description), or if like for example Lahar doesnt get stunned and you want some dmg pumped out during your 30 seconds of weakness.

[Prothescar]

Side note though was it ever determined if the empyrean ws boost applied to all hits or just the first? If it's all KJ is looking rather sexy no?

I assume you mean Mythic. 99% sure the WS bonus damage transfers over, however King's Justice is still at a pretty big disadvantage compared to Upheaval. +15% MWSD, however significantly less base fTP and WSC. KJ 3fTP 42%STR, Upheaval 4fTP 85%VIT. And since STR being a more favorable WSC isn't really a factor anymore... least G.axe has the benefit of having a not entirely useless weaponskill as AM trigger, unlike 95% of all other mythics.

[Kyte]

UL spells have recasts, I really doubt the new SP is going to remove them.

I'm pretty sure they mentioned shortly after the BLU SP2 came out on the test server that it will also remove the built-in recast timers for UL spells. Perhaps someone less lazy than me can verify that.

EDIT: Unlazied-

Unbridled Wisdom- Allows unlimited casting of blue magic spells that use Unbridled Learning. Additionally, Unbridled Learning will have no recast time. 60 sec

I'm pretty sure he meant "Unbridled Learning spells. I remember there being a community team post before that one that clarified it.

[dasva]

I assume you mean Mythic. 99% sure the WS bonus damage transfers over, however King's Justice is still at a pretty big disadvantage compared to Upheaval. +15% MWSD, however significantly less base fTP and WSC. KJ 3fTP 42%STR, Upheaval 4fTP 85%VIT. And since STR being a more favorable WSC isn't really a factor anymore... least G.axe has the benefit of having a not entirely useless weaponskill as AM trigger, unlike 95% of all other mythics.

Yeah that's what I meant. I figured in the end the str and vit would probably come out close though with the huge base dmg we have now percentage wise it wouldn't be much different. Kinda why I'm wondering if perhaps a few mythic ws that used to be decent might be good again. I was mostly thinking of how more hits or increases in ftp would favor KJ more so if for example you say had sp2 up and had 2 extra hits for each. Though I thought it was 30% for 99?

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, it is +30%.

Spoiler: show

KJ - 50% STR, 3~3.5 fTP (+extra attacks)*1.3
Upheaval - 100% VIT, 4~5 fTP (+extra attacks)

Assuming a 40% DA rate, WS Belt/Gorget, and Mythic OA2-3 with 300 TP:
KJ - (3.5+.84 + .2 + .2)*1.3 = 6.162 fTP
Up - (5 + .84 + .2 + .2) = 6.24 fTP

Assuming a 40% DA rate, WS Belt/Gorget, with 300 TP (but not starting with AM2-3):
KJ - (3.5+.84 + .2 + .2)*1.3 = 6.162 fTP
Up - (5 + .2 + .2 + .2) = 5.6 fTP

So if you have 300TP and no AM2-3, using KJ isn't going to be that much of a sacrifice (10% more fTP, loses 50% stat mod but base damage is huge) and you're probably going to make it back with the OA2-3 even if what you're fighting only lives a few more attack rounds. If you're using a wing and already have OA2-3, you should use Upheaval.


At 100TP with AM2-3:
KJ - (3+.84+.2+.2)*1.3 = 5.512
Up - (4+.84+.2+.2) = 5.24

So KJ would effectively have 5% more fTP, and is missing out on 50% modifier. It would almost certainly be better to use Upheaval.

I am sure these conclusions surprise no one, but there it is. Everything was assumed in KJ's favor for the 100TP case. I am also assuming that our KJ WS testing is accurate, which is kind of a substantial assumption because essentially every Mythic WS that has been re-tested has found something wrong. Mystic Boon, Stringing Pummel, Pyrrhic Kleos, Garland of Bliss, Primal Rend, etc. We did some really shitty testing on those WSs. The only ones that are still considered to be accurate are the ones that haven't been retested afaik.

[Ophannus]

Ophannus, if you insist on complaining about Dragoon in every post, please know what you are talking about. It's getting excessively tiresome.

Spoiler: show

• There was no specification on the recast reduction or the duration.
• It was a great ability on the test server, especially with Ryunohige.
• There is a multi-attack limit on WS.

Dragoon DRG SP 2 Eliminates the recast time of jump. 30 sec

That was the original version.

And according to Martel's earlier testing it was 0s recast on "Jump" and then SE was discussing changing it to be effective for all Jumps but changing the 0 recast to 4-5sec recast on Jumps but they never reflected that change on the test server before they were removed from it.

Dragoon
Fly High
Reduces the recast time for Jump.

The new 2hr description sounds a lot like the old one and may imply it's the same "0 recast 'Jump' for 30 seconds' in which case it would be worthless except for Ryunos. I made the statements I made today because I don't see a plural 's' after Jump in Fly High's description.

Also when I said 8 hit upheaval I was implying with Conquerer, since can't ODD/ODT from AMIII proc alongside DA?