Dev Tracker: Discussion

[fantasticdan]

The price is fine because no one is actually building emps besides harp lol.

[Draylo]

It's not hard to farm them either, just like Dynamis or Salvage. You can easily trio Quilin or any of them now.

[Byrthnoth]

I forgot to reply to thread of conversation earlier, but:

I never understood why so many people are against them limiting the number of things we can max out given that it's a common thing to have in just about every RPG. It's kinda boring if you could just grind your heart out until everything is maxed, IMO.

I see your arguments as:
1) It's a common, therefore justified. - This is never a justification.
2) Having category caps prevents you from grinding your heart out until everything is maxed. - You are personally capped either way, so the fact that you can't merit everything doesn't mean that you haven't already "ground your heart out until everything is maxed."

I view comments like this more as complacency than a logical defense of the current merit system and category caps.



Kincard did not make this argument, but people commonly claim that the category caps create diversity. In this case, the reason to keep things like job merits capped is to maintain diversity and force people to specialize, which in turn creates a bunch of unique snowflakes that make so-and-so more qualified at a given event than such-and-such. It's important to keep in mind the italicized qualification, because diversity on paper doesn't matter and doesn't affect any decisions if there's no functional difference between the players.

Analysis of 2012 census merit tab:

Spoiler: show

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/gui...nsus/11/3.html
Looking through the above merits (which are from 2 years ago in May of 2012), it's important to keep in mind that we don't know whether or not people have actually hit the category cap. Any analysis of it that considers sub-capped players will overestimate how variable players would really be if given infinite merits. It would be much more useful to this discussion if they had limited their analysis to players with capped categories. For the sake of this discussion, I will be assuming that everyone included has hit the category cap unless evidence indicates otherwise. Also, when looking at the below analysis it's important to note both the diversity and also whether or not the diversity matters at all. If there's "diversity" in BLM Tier 2 merits then that's fab, but if it has no functional implications for the player then who gives a shit?

Here are the categories that SE is increasing the category cap on:
* HP/MP - 15/15 HP merits is the most common choice by a factor of about 2:1, but it's not as dominant as I would have assumed. There's a fair amount of diversity here, which has functional implications (people who merited MP be one-shotted more easily). When they raise the category cap to 45, whatever diversity there was here will disappear.

* Attributes - 12/12 STR is predictably dominant, about 6x as common as the second best stat. You could say that the second stat justifies the category cap here, but most players are very obviously not hitting the category cap (12/12 STR is more prevalent than 12/12 of all other stats combined) It's hard to conclude much from this because so many people have not hit the cap. Logically I know that increasing the category caps is going to force me to choose between meriting AGI, CHR, and INT. None of them are make-or-break stats that will really affect what job I play, but it is going to determine what I'm the best at and contribute to player diversity.

* Combat skills - Evasion is dominant, but it's pretty clear that people just max the weapon of whatever job they care about. This is a high diversity group. People merit what they play. Limiting this category limits what people are comfortable playing. Hence, raising the cap will make everyone a little more versatile and the game a little less diverse.

* Magic skills - Enfeebling and Elemental are dominant, probably as a hold-over from times when people actually played nuking jobs. Otherwise there is high diversity here too. Same diversity argument as with Combat skills.


Categories that SE does not increase the category cap on:
* Other - Critical Hit Rate is dominant and people split enemy crit rate and spell interruption rate because neither really matter. There is diversity in this category only because the secondary options are so blase.

* Weapon Skills - High diversity. Same argument for diversity as Magic/Combat skills, except SE chose not to raise these caps. You can argue that the diversity here is less functional because the damage difference between 1/5 and 5/5 is not very significant, which is probably the tact that SE is taking.

* Jobs:
* WAR - Tier 1 is split between people that are still meritted for their Ridill and those that have played WAR in the last 8 years. For Tier 2 they tend to go 5/5 Warrior's Charge and then either 1/5 Tomahawk, 4/5 Savagery or 5/5 Savagery. Some functional diversity because Warrior's Charge is / always has been terribly overrated and people dumb enough to merit it 5/5 are doubtlessly worse WARs.
* MNK - Tier 1 is 5/5 Kick Attacks and 5/5 Counter. No diversity. Group 2 (before Tojil) was a mix because all the options kind of sucked. High functional diversity (though unappreciated at the time). Probably not now because the merit distribution is doubtlessly different.
* WHM - Tier 1 is 5/5 Cure Cast time and 5/5 Barspell or Regen. Tier 2 tends towards 5/5 Shellra V and at least opening Martyr, Devotion, and Protectra V. No real functional diversity.
* BLM - Tier 1 is all 5/5 Ice/Thunder. Tier 2 tends towards opening all AMIIs (this was the Voidwatch era) and maxing Burst or Freeze II. Low functional diversity at the time because AM2 was terrible. Now AM2 is more interesting, so it's more like moderate functional diversity.
* RDM - Tier 1 is 5/5 Convert, 5/5 Pick your MAcc poison (ice preferred). Tier 2 is a wide range, but tends towards opening all of them and maxing Phalanx II, Slow II, Bio III, or Paralyze II. High functional diversity because the Tier 2 merits actually kind of matter, which is a shame because RDM is lulzy now.
* THF - Tier 1 is 5/5 Triple Attack rate, and then 5/5 Sneak Attack rate (or some mix of SA/TA rate). Tier 2 tends towards opening the JAs and maxing Feint or Assassin's Charge. Some functional diversity here, in that people who didn't cap Feint at this point (2012) were retarded.
* PLD - Tier 1 is 5/5 Sentinel Recast and 5/5 Shield Bash or Rampart recast (a split). Tier 2 tends towards unlocking things and capping Chivalry and maybe Fealty. It's fairly diverse mostly because the Tier 2 merits weren't useful for anything that was going on in 2012.
* DRK - Last Resort effect/Recast 5/5, no diversity. Tier 2 is DB 5/5 and then a mix of their other shit options (no functional diversity).
* BST - Mostly 5/5 Reward/Call Beast, with a few people doing Killer effects for their AF3+2 bodies. Tier 2 strongly tends towards Beast Affinity and opening Feral Howl/Killer Instinct, then dumping the rest into Beast Healer. Little functional diversity.
* BRD - Surprisingly diverse Tier 1, and the differences should really impact what the bard can do. Tier 2 is almost uniformly 5/5 N/T or some mix of that and opening the songs. Considering the songs have never really had a use, low functional diversity there.
* RNG - Rapid Shot rate 5/5 and then splitting between Sharpshot and Unlimited Shot. Tier 2 is Snapshot 5/5 and either 5/5 Recycle or some mix of Flashy/Stealth and Recycle. I doubt the particular choices people made have a large impact on their performance here.
* SAM - STP/Meditate 5/5 are dominant. Zanshin rate gets a shout out thanks to Hassozanshins. For Tier 2, Overwhelm 5/5, opening the two JAs, and putting the rest in Ikishoten. No diversity really.
* NIN - Subtle Blow 5/5 and people either seem to merit 1 of each potency type or put it all into Hyoton. How strange. Most people don't seem to bother with NIN Tier 2, but those that do tend to open each of the spells or just cap NIN tool expertise. No functional diversity here because NIN merits basically suck.
* DRG - Jump / High Jump recast for Tier 1. Tier 2 is mostly Angon 5/5 and then people deciding which of the other merits they want to waste points on. At the time there was a little functional diversity here because Deep Breathing still had a use for solo, but there isn't anymore.
* SMN - People tend to 5/5 categories randomly here. Some functional variability because Avatar physical attack merits are dumb, and even if you knock out people that merited that you are still choosing between MAcc, PAcc, and MAtk, all of which are useful in different situations. For tier 2 merits, people tend to unlock them all and cap Wind Blade or Heavenly Strike. Moderate functional diversity based on the element of your target, because it's better to be using a 5/5 BP and happening to have it capped is useful.
* BLU - Mostly Physical Potency and MAcc. Some people were doing CA recast at this point. Low functional significance at the time. For Tier 2, people tend to unlock JAs and 5/5 Assimilation, then create the diversity with their last 3 merits. Not very diverse.
* COR - Mix of Phantom Roll recast, QD Recast, and QD Acc. Some functional variability based on whether you primarily use COR as a buffer or DD. For Tier 2, Snake Eye 5/5, Loaded Deck 1/5, Fold 1/5, and then create meaningless diversity with the last 3 points.
* PUP - Automaton Magic Skill (probably a holdover from when you needed to merit it for higher tier nukes) and people choose Melee/Ranged skill for the rest of their points. Minor diversity, I guess. For Group 2, people unlock JAs and max Optimization, then create diversity with the last 3 points. The PUP Tier 2 options are pretty strong though, so it's hard to call this diversity meaningless
* DNC - Haste Samba / Reverse Flourish are dominant. For Tier 2, people unlock JAs and tend to either cap one of them or Closed Position. Extra merits go into NFR if they didn't cap it. High functional diversity, because those JAs are very strong and basically redefine the job's role.
* SCH - Max Sublimation and Helix MAcc/MAtk are dominant. For Tier 2, people tend to open JAs and max Enlightenment or Stormsurge. Moderate functional diversity because the Tier 2 JAs aren't awesomely powerful, but they each have a use and you have to choose between them.

In summary, the categories that they're increasing the caps on are the most functionally diverse categories. Their current caps prevent us from playing different jobs. Raising the category caps on skills, status, and HP/MP will allow us to play more jobs and will make the playerbase less functionally diverse.

If they'd increased the job categories, it would have amounted to a balance adjustment that would have benefited RDM, BLM, SMN, PUP, DNC, and SCH the most. The functional diversity for those specific jobs would have decreased, but the buff would probably not have been strong enough to give them the popularity change that they so badly need (perhaps minus SCH).

[Seha]

Need more people with defender recast merits.

[Damane]

Need more people with defender recast merits.

honestly with aggressor recast on top of berserk recast and double attack, a war could almost fulltime aggressor and berserk. atm this is only possible if you give up DA merits ._. (which wont happen).

atm berserk duration is 3 min and 34 sec with leaves you only with 36 sec without berserk

[dasva]

Need to change defender recast to defender effect where meriting it gets rid of the -att part

[Priran]

Meh, mog gardens. Hardly worth the bayld for KIs even when bayld was otherwise pointless.

And why the fuck are the furrows so much harder to cap than any other node?

[Prothescar]

they were a fun novelty for a bit, but I haven't visited mine in months. maybe they could add rested XP/CP to them or something so if you visit them every once in a while you get an XP/CP boost (dedication buff) based on how many moogle star things you have. idk.

[Malithar]

Collecting stars (maybe they'll be useful.... lol) and getting a free 50-100k a day was incentive enough for me to keep at it. However, with the annoying effort of getting bayld for HPBs that's now present, I'm going to resent having to get more KIs to progress the gardens.

Mine were already maxed before they added it, but when they added the boats in the 3 nations to Mog Gardens, there was a Moogle put near them that sold the KIs. Anyone ever do that with a mule and see if they're purchasable with gil or CP instead?

There was a couple posts by Lomloon on the 30th that I never noticed translated. Not entirely sure what they were talking about, but it looked like some minor details regarding what can be expected of the augmented WKR 115 weapons, and something about more auto translate words in July concerning VW weaknesses? Sure did miss the train on adding those if so...

[Hitou]

Takes all of 5-10 min to check it everyday for nearly free npcables or crafting mats. I used to do mog gardens on 3 chars but got burnt out after a while doing that so really only bother with my main now. I don't bother with the furrows anymore either because the only thing worth doing is tree sapplings and the 48hr timer means you have to check it at the same time you planted it or it will continue to to harvest later and later till you skip a day to reset it. That and needing the qiqirn and mithra kid to get decent results was just too much upkeep for me.

On a side note, the new "max merit" category is going to be placed under HP/MP (for whatever reason) and that catagory is being raised to 45. Does that mean we'll have to waste a potential 150 HP/MP just to be able to hold more merits?

[Malithar]

On a side note, the new "max merit" category is going to be placed under HP/MP (for whatever reason) and that catagory is being raised to 45. Does that mean we'll have to waste a potential 150 HP/MP just to be able to hold more merits?

There was no mention of the individual caps of those stats being raised like there was for base stats and defensive combat skills. I'd assume we'll be looking at the current 15 cap for each individual stat, resulting in 15 HP, 15 MP, and 15 max merits.

[Hitou]

That's true, I think there was even a Camate post a while back saying the max HP and MP caps wouldn't be raised now that I think about it. I suppose an extra 450 HP would be a bit much to hope for lol.

[dasva]

Meh, mog gardens. Hardly worth the bayld for KIs even when bayld was otherwise pointless.

And why the fuck are the furrows so much harder to cap than any other node?

Was kinda nice for new stuff that was getting gouged... mostly it's just so invent intensive and time if you want to do anything other than just sell it to the moogle. Effectively it ended up being slightly better gil/time than fishing while having to clear my inventory just the same but I actually have to pay attention and such

Furrows seems worse because it seems like capping is based on how many items you pull out of a node and per day it's likely furrows will be much less especially if you are trying to do it for money and/or don't feel like checking them several times a day

[Byrthnoth]

Two posts on the JP forums. One seems to be about the Eldieme gate mechanism (they say they're also considering adding the same to Halvung). The other is about a potential Salvage entry restriction that stops you from going in the same zone two days in a row? Not sure, but lol Mythic trials when that gets released.

[Kincard]

Byrth pretty much got the new posts right. As for the two earlier posts that were untranslated, one of them was about some terms for the auto translate because VW is popular again, and the other one is just saying that the augments for the WKR weapons will be secondary stats, rather than D and Weapon Skill which are considered "standard stats" that go along with ilevel. Not really something nobody couldn't already figure out on their own so I got lazy about translating that, heh.

[Sechs]

Don't really have many expectatives for those weapons, but the armor... well, many of those could turn out being very interesting.

[dasva]

Lol at the salvage adjustment. Completely missing the real root cause of the problem once again

[Julian]

Is the salvage two days in a row, or multiple times on same day (aka saved up tag)?

I assume JP midnight.. That's not that big of a deal at all.

If its 2x in a row in general, then... Fuck.

[Sechs]

Lol at the salvage adjustment. Completely missing the real root cause of the problem once again

I don't think they're missing it, they're just trying to go with the easiest solution.
This thing they can probably implement in 30 seconds, going and adjusting the single zones to make them have more even drops/difficulty etc would be better of course, but also a longer adjustment no?

[Julian]

Easiest would be to nerf arrapago. Seems to be what they probably attempted to ninja with adjusting khim's magic evasion, lol.