Dev Tracker: Discussion

[arus2001]

People who seriously think adding a few niche and gimmicky mobs will fix a job are really looking at things the wrong way. Because once you've farmed out those mobs or something new rolls around to replace them, you're back to being trash. The bigger problem XI has faced over the years is simply how damage is king. Super buffing your DDs and just zerging a boss is often far more beneficial and ironically safer than taking more defensive approaches where things like debuffs stand out. Yet it's also been stated that the current debuff arsenal really does nothing for what truly makes mobs threatening with their TP moves. Things being timed also deters the defensive approach, which is partly why I was so keen to ridicule the depop adjustment on outside Delve NMs when SE first did it, nevermind the gulf it created between those who managed the longer fights and those who missed the boat.

The above in mind, I want to see a damage component added to RDM's enfeebling arsenal, achieved both through magic and melee. Spells like Impact serve as an example of this, but it's terribly MP inefficient and also relies on having a specific item instead of being part of the job. BLU's got gobs of these already and you don't see the game imploding, either. Someone mentioned Poison sucks, and compared to Helix spells nowadays, that's absolutely true. Tweak the formula based on tier to do damage based on Enfeebling skill and then give RDMs Poison III. T1 = Skill/5, T2 = Skill/3.5, T3 = Skill/2. So, if you've got 520 skill, you're looking at 104, 148, and 260 a tic respectively. Bio is pretty much never used due to Dia's DEF down being superior. I'd like to see the DoT aspect of both improve, bit Bio needs some more help beyond that. Maybe convert it to instead doing -ATK, it does -DMG% for both magic and physical stuff. As well, the age old request of converting the merit spells to level/scroll learned needs to be honored (for all jobs, though). But yeah, toss in some new "nukes" that run off enfeebling skill and make them equivalents of Slow/Para/Blind III and add even more shit like Plague, a -MEVA spell, one for -MDEF, an Addle II for RDMs to further distinguish from WHM, something to stymie a mob's TP gain, something that affects a mob's TP bonus modifiers on WS, and I think I even saw at one point in the past someone suggesting a spell that could actually lower a mob's level, with that all -stats and possible trait/spell/move loss.

Melee end could see WS improving a debuff's potency once landed, extending their durations, perhaps some unique options of their own, and of course a means to restore MP and prolong uptime. I'm not a fan of other-target Temper for sake of the cycling blues, but I know some other ideas I've seen in the past involved a spell that renews buff durations on the target or could even make white/black magic castable ones permanent at the expense of an MP perpetuation cost on the RDM so they'd have more time to debuff and swing. This also plays nice into the ilvl tweak on swords/daggers where a few RDM oriented melee traits, new or established, could help slake off the age old hate since it seems they'll otherwise never replace a WHM or SCH for healing or a BLM and SCH for nuking.

But who am I kidding, that'd all require SE taking more than 5 minutes with the job on a balance pass. If SPs weren't something everyone has, I have no doubt the job would've been neglected again. People who are okay with that need to step out of their pre-2007 bias and realize most RDMs aren't wanting to steal WHM's role or even care about soloing (H)NMs for hours. Yet those seem to be the only reasons why nothing happens for the job anymore beyond catch-all updates like the level cap increase or new SPs. "But other jobs desperately need buffs too!" is no justification for the prolonged ignorance and I know I'd want to see those happen, too. Shit like "Go play BLU if you want to be a melee mage!" is just as inane as me telling a THF to play DRK if they want to do better DPS. Diversity can still exist despite similarities in roles.

[dasva]

Because we already bring a rdm typically and we don't bring bsts? Not like it matters anymore but that's a pretty simple answer lol.

edit: Also wat, who cares about eva in delve unless you're a sam?

I asked specifically for gravity since we were talking about validating rdm. If you are already bringing it the whole gravity argument is a moot point to begin with. But it sounds like it's no real reason we just do. So you have an inferior support nuker who can give a little evasion down or an inferior melee that can do a huge one.

And I was quoting someone talking about a circumstance in the future might matter.

[Ophannus]

People still dont cap acc on everything in delve. Gravity II is effectively a +20% boost to Hit Rate. Turns those 75% hit rate failure DDs into 95% cap DDs. I can see Stymie+Gravity II being beneficial at least on Bee.

[Malithar]

I don't think anyone's trying to argue that Rdm is brought for any specific reason over any other job, it just happens to fill the niche that slot in the party is designated. A Sch, another Geo, Rdm, prolly any mage really, could fill that spot. Back up cures, debuffs, sleeps, pulling/holding NMs, supporting the puller/holder, back up nuking if nothing better to do, hasting the Schs if the Brd or Geo isn't already, etc. It's not that OMG WE NEED A RDM there, it just happens to fill that roll. Dia III, Slow/Para/Blind/Gravity II are nifty bonuses, and a good Rdm will keep them up, if only to feel like they're contributing something. Doesn't mean they're brought specifically for those things though. I typically go Rdm or Geo in that party in my LS's runs, and really, that's all Rdm does, or the second Geo. Run with the Pld or whoever the puller/sac is, make sure they don't die, toss out debuffs, haste the Schs during boss, back up cures, toss nukes when you can. Sch, Rdm, Geo, Blm, hell even Whm prolly could fill the exact same roll.

When it comes to Bst, at this point I've no doubt it could fill a DD role. Good luck convincing anyone to bring it though. What pet does the -eva down btw? Is it a DPS loss to bother with it? What about all the other pet debuffs you always sling around, -def, -att, what about using the beast affinity pet, etc? <3 you Dasva, but your Bst boner is annoying at times bra. Again, no doubt it could work, but why complicate it? There's no real discernable benefit to doing so.

[dasva]

I don't think anyone's trying to argue that Rdm is brought for any specific reason over any other job, it just happens to fill the niche that slot in the party is designated. A Sch, another Geo, Rdm, prolly any mage really, could fill that spot. Back up cures, debuffs, sleeps, pulling/holding NMs, supporting the puller/holder, back up nuking if nothing better to do, hasting the Schs if the Brd or Geo isn't already, etc. It's not that OMG WE NEED A RDM there, it just happens to fill that roll. Dia III, Slow/Para/Blind/Gravity II are nifty bonuses, and a good Rdm will keep them up, if only to feel like they're contributing something. Doesn't mean they're brought specifically for those things though. I typically go Rdm or Geo in that party in my LS's runs, and really, that's all Rdm does, or the second Geo. Run with the Pld or whoever the puller/sac is, make sure they don't die, toss out debuffs, haste the Schs during boss, back up cures, toss nukes when you can. Sch, Rdm, Geo, Blm, hell even Whm prolly could fill the exact same roll.

When it comes to Bst, at this point I've no doubt it could fill a DD role. Good luck convincing anyone to bring it though. What pet does the -eva down btw? Is it a DPS loss to bother with it? What about all the other pet debuffs you always sling around, -def, -att, what about using the beast affinity pet, etc? <3 you Dasva, but your Bst boner is annoying at times bra. Again, no doubt it could work, but why complicate it? There's no real discernable benefit to doing so.

And it's the anna for hte evasion move. As far as -def/att the slug one doesn't really last that long (little over a minute iirc but takes 3 charges) and the -def from genboob jug didn't land before ilvl update not sure about now same goes for leeches -att. I haven't tested it since we gained so much macc. I'd imagine they could probably land and maybe even the slugs -10% hp. Have no idea what you mean by beast affinity pet since that's a job trait that effects all jugs. Unless you mean killer instinct. In which case I'm curious to how giving your entire pt +10% dmg dealt and -10% dt (and even more for the bsts) and intimidation is not useful or complicated

I don't understand how you can justify one slot that can be filled by any other mage but say screw using a dd that can be filled by others. Why complicate things by bringing rdm with no discernable benefit to doing so? Note I'm not really saying bring bst but just saying if you really trying to justify bringing rdm via -eva it still isn't even doing that well. And everything else isn't a real reason either. ie rdm needs help

[Draylo]

Refresh II is also a nice little boost, our mage party actually nuke and do respectable dmg doing so.

[Malithar]

Have no idea what you mean by beast affinity pet since that's a job trait that effects all jugs. Unless you mean killer instinct. In which case I'm curious to how giving your entire pt +10% dmg dealt and -10% dt (and even more for the bsts) and intimidation is not useful or complicated

KI is what I meant, not overly familiar with Bst, but I had meant the pet that's type was strong to the mob. I'm not saying gaining that effect isn't useful, I'm saying that switching around pets to take advantage of it, then switching to other pets in order to land your desired debuffs, then back to a pet for damage sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth. Specially when you're going through all that on a job that at it's best does worse than other jobs on paper. But hey, I'm not arguing that, I fully believe a Bst could fill the role of a DD. I'm just saying good luck getting someone to say "ok, bring it."

I don't understand how you can justify one slot that can be filled by any other mage but say screw using a dd that can be filled by others. Why complicate things by bringing rdm with no discernable benefit to doing so? Note I'm not really saying bring bst but just saying if you really trying to justify bringing rdm via -eva it still isn't even doing that well. And everything else isn't a real reason either. ie rdm needs help

Not trying to justify that Rdm is brought because of the stupid extra -eva, I'm saying it's a nifty side bonus, just like the other debuffs and Refresh II. I don't understand how you don't see the justification in a party slot having a "role" that needs filled, not specifically by any certain job.

Whms, Schs, Brds, Cors, that's the only real constant to a successful group at this point. We're stuck in this setup where Mnks, Drks, Drgs, Geos, a Pld, etc are "needed" when they're just filling a role. Mnks are great for what they're brought for, no doubt. But what they bring could be covered by other jobs if the ally was built for it. Drk? Slashing DD, put a Bst there, Drg? Take a Thf, etc. It's all roles. If you managed to get into a Delve ally on Bst, you'd prolly be taking the place of a Drk, IMO.

This inane babble about unique debuffs and junk doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, it's one of those nifty bonuses, like Rdm has. By your own admission, Rdm needs help. So I guess Bst needs help too, yet you're confused out of your mind why no one cares about Bst?

It just so happens that Rdm fills a slot that's simpley "support." Cure, haste, nuke, debuff, that's about it. Lots of jobs can fill it. The unique, nifty bonuses it brings don't really amount to all that much. No one really cares that you put para II, slow II, blind II, or Dia III (except the Cors, less shots). Mages might care a tad about Refresh II, but really, the MP users in that party aren't exactly MP starved, they're stunning, maybe occasionally curing or nuking, but not enough to have MP issues.

[dasva]

I think you are mistaking my intent. If people are willing to bring rdm for non unique roles that it does no better really than other jobs that just have perks there is no reason to bring pretty much anything for that reason. And if you try to add on -eva bst fits that role better. There isn't a support or general debuff or nuke reason to bring rdm over pretty much every other mage and if we brought up -eva bst can do that better too. Just the general populace is more willing to bring rdm

[Darkmagi]

RDM will never be brought simply for -eva... I don't even see why this conversation exists. It's just the interchangeable enfeebling slot.

[NynJa]

If your gear is so bad you need the eva -25%, youre probably not winning either way.

[Fwahm]

We're talking about a theoretical super evasive mob that you are uncapped on accuracy against even with excellent gear/buffs/sushi.

[Byrthnoth]

Rudra's Storm also gives very potent Gravity (probably Gravity II) and can be used by bards, who now carry around Izhiikoh along with their MAcc gear.

[jimbobsonofgod]

We're talking about a theoretical super evasive mob that you are uncapped on accuracy against even with excellent gear/buffs/sushi.

Might as well talk about which one of your favorite Cait Sith blood pacts you like the best because even theoretically Rdm wont be used for evasion only because ....>

RDM will never be brought simply for -eva... I don't even see why this conversation exists.

-eva bst fits that role better.

Rudra's Storm also gives very potent Gravity (probably Gravity II) and can be used by bards

All those reasons.

Sadly the only real reason to level rdm these days is to your lynx has all the spells while you GvM.

[dasva]

Sadly the only real reason to level rdm these days is to your lynx has all the spells while you GvM.

Hey there are alot of rdm mobs in monstrosity not just lynx!

[jimbobsonofgod]

Here let me fix that , for you sir.

Sadly the only real reason to level rdm these days is to your lynx/manticore has all the spells while you GvM.

For GvM Lynx is the way to go with better TP move selection over manticore though.

[Fwahm]

I dunno about that; most players don't have BDT sets, so Heat Breath could be pretty amazing for PvM.

[dasva]

What's the formula on it? I thought most of the breaths were gimped on monstrosity. If for now other reason then they would be insanely awesome to level with given our hps

[jimbobsonofgod]

Yea clearly Fwahm hasn't done any monstrosity where mobs had a breath attack because they suck.
Either way even if it was an awesome form of damage(which it isn't). Petrifying Breath is way more potent in a GvM environment because unlike player petrify, the mob version keeps the player stoned even after you attack them.

Also Glean is going to be the mage killer with paralyze + mute.

[Mefuki]

I'd say breath skills are half decent. The skills that I'd say truly suck are things like Leaf Dagger, Photosynthesis, Flame Armor, Shockwave, Sharp Sting, Nox Blast or Asuran Claws. I just don't understand the point to these skills at all. I'm very much hoping SE reevaluate these in the next update or a future one.

They're far too expensive and do far too little damage (Asuran Claws should do way more for it's cost), are far too inaccurate (Sharp Sting never lands), give ridiculous buffs (80 TP for 30 sec of Blaze Spikes!?) or are just currently redundant (Shockwave is basically Wild Horn -1).

In short, I want a reason to use these moves.

[Hitou]

I agree there's a crap-ton of monstrosity TP moves that are worthless. The same can be said with player WS though. The key difference is all WS cost 100 tp for players, but monipulators get saddled with crappy moves that also cost 150-200 tp. If it makes you feel any better, though, asuran claws sucks as a blu spell and even for gnole monsters. I noticed rock throw on opo-opo almost never lands either, makes me wonder if seemingly ranged tp moves get their acc from a gimped or non-existent ranged skill as monipulators.