Dev Tracker: Discussion

[arus2001]

Do you even play this game or any MMO? Seems like you don't with the amount of ignorant posts you make. A lot of MMO do this, even XIV with ilevel requirements, story requirements and gear check fights. I don't see one person here asking for only alliance content. They are asking for challenging stuff, and if that happens to be at least one alliance event then what is the problem with that? We have all these low man 6 people fights already and newbies have tons of content they can engage in.

Your colossal lack of empathy is showing.

Alright, so ccl pipes up saying he's losing friends to nothing difficult to do. You know what? That goes the other way, too. People quit because they can't do certain activities within the game. Not because they're shitty players, but because either their schedules don't mesh with the demands of others they have to play with regularly in order to participate (think raiding schedules) or they simply can't find that compatible group and spend way too much time searching for it (be it social compatibility for the long term or even something more direct like that random PUG only wanting 4 song BRD when all you've got is RDM). In the rare chance they can get in? Well, that content's obviously been designed to be run multiple times. So, process repeats turning a 3 month gig into 6+ months. I've lost my own share of friends to this reality and let's add that notion that the more aged a particular piece of content becomes, the more difficult it becomes to participate in without adjustment (or eventual overgearing from later, usually cap raise, sources). THEN we get geniuses like Buka above who want to dictate people don't deserve shit, where you realize that fucking around in all the casual content (like housing, collecting costumes, etc.) is likely to get you zero meaningful progression and lead to boredom and frustration when you can't get involved in the big boy stuff.

But that whole older content gets more difficult to participate in thing? Yeah, when you start saying, "YOU MUST SPEND 3 MONTHS DOING THIS!" that then becomes 3 months a player is forever behind if they miss the rush. The oldbies get zero to little incentive to help the plebes with backtracking, and there's a good chance these hardcore nutjobs aren't even associating with the people I'm talking about. Ergo, it's easily dismissed as not a problem. And in games like XI or XIV where playing multiple jobs on one character is a staple feature, multiplying that time against the number of jobs is outright asinine. Sure, one could occasionally cut corners with multi-job gear, but that kind of one-size-fits-all thing doesn't always work. See: SMN and mage gear with no pet stats.

The problem isn't that I haven't played MMOs. The problem is I've played more than just XI and actually see how people behave on both sides of the casual and hardcore spectrum and even in between. XI may have been where I spent more of my hardcore days as a youth with more disposable free time, but that doesn't change my potential skill set when hopping to newer games relative to their own features. MMOs don't revolve the hardcore sub-10%ers as much as they really wish they do. Gaming itself really shouldn't be a matter of, "I only play one game!" and thus such dominating your time for the next 3 years. You want hard content? Fine, ask for difficulty modes with better drop rates and more drop slots so you can gear up more jobs more efficiently. You want exclusionary content? GTFO. The times have changed no matter how much you want to hide under the skirt of archaic MMO philosophies. As an example, while XIV's new Hunt system may have its flaws, the fact it enables i110 gear acquisition outside of Coil (and it's lockout) has made it an exceedingly popular activity. The weekly tome caps are still at play, of course, but imagine that... not having to the lick the nuts of players you dislike to snag some digital loot. God, what is wrong with the world today...

Do you think people are going to come back just because stuff is harder though? I think the main issue isn't that the content isn't challenging enough, it's that it's boring.

While a lot of XI's recent QoL changes have been awesome, perhaps the bigger issue is some of these guys are asking for the output of a full-sized dev team when the bodies just aren't there due to SE's budgeting choices. Yeah, I mock them rehashing BCs and such because I'd like to see more new content instead of stuff I did in 2007 with a higher difficulty level. Plus how long they string out these expansion stories has just been one of those long-term criticisms from me. :/

[PSOfanatic]

I wasn't really referring to anyone specific and you pretty much hit the point I was trying to make where gear is making the player rather than the skill. Obviously that isn't true for everyone and I understand that.

My complaint is that people keep freaking out about there not being hard content and nothing to do. These are the same people that have WAY more gear than an average FFXI player which avg in FFXI equates to hardcore in most MMOs (imho). Most content that comes out is really difficult to the average player. Why does SE give a fuck about the top 3% of the playerbase? It's like gaming in general; Casuals win out in the end. I agree with what someone said earlier. It was along the lines of: Whatever SE releases people will clear and be bored again. What more can they honestly add in terms of difficulty to this game? This kind of game has an extremely low skill cap to begin with (Purely by the fact that it isn't action based like most MMO). Is macroing gear, keeping enfeebs on (whatever can actually be enfeebled) honestly show skill? Maybe...for some people. In fact most people just let gearswap do all the work for them..and even then that is mostly to take the tediousness of FFXI NQ macros.

What else can SE add that they haven't added to make 'Difficult' content. Mobs already have instagib moves. I'm honestly looking for answers to this question because adding more difficult content just seems funny...because no matter what they throw at us, it will all end up being easy for those already decked out.

And regards to the person saying "I shouldn't have to unequip good gear to make content challenging"...You're right. I agree. But what about the situations where most shout groups for AA invite RNG only as primary DD when other setups work? People seek the easy mode. Hell just the other day some guy was shouting for specifically 'marksmanship' RNG for delve. Hilarious. Everyone seeks the easy path, thus content isn't as difficult as it was probably intended to be.

[ccl]

What else can SE add that they haven't added to make 'Difficult' content. Mobs already have instagib moves. I'm honestly looking for answers to this question because adding more difficult content just seems funny...because no matter what they throw at us, it will all end up being easy for those already decked out.

Back at 75 they released mob assuming everyone has relic(AV/PW) when it wasn't really possible so why the fuck do they totally ignore those weapon now? You may think it was impossible but some LS were able to survive AV past bracelet mode and only lacked the damage check; I'm sure with current knowledge and all relic they would prolly beat it now.

Another kind of content: Einherjar or Legion: Simply put room with enough mob for damage check that if you don't meet it, you can't clear in time and pop the last wave/boss it would give us a REASON to farm those 0.2% increase sidegrade since right now everything is a joke that most don't bother with it.

Another gear check event?: Ultima@ 75; they could release a mob with the same mechanic(but would need to be multi hit to ignore scherzo/ea and do it multiple time to ignore PD).

[Damane]

I am curious how easy stuff would seem to people if they wouldnt run around with 4 song bards in their pt. I admit I am spoiled by the fact that we have 2 4 song bards in our LS, hence I wouldnt say immidatly somethign is easy to do for other groups. 4 song bard vs 2 song bard (or 3 song brd) is a huge difference, especially when they sport R+E+M. A huge factor that make alot of fights "piss-easy" comes from certain relics/empys/mythics you have access to in your group, theese ones have the most impact: gjallarhorn, daurdabla 99, carnwenhan (to a lesser extend), yagrush, aegis, ochain, burtgang, koga (since recently), annihilator. the other RME weapons have obviously an impact too, but not so big as these. I mean its obvious if you are running with a 4 song BRD, yagrush WHM 2x Koga SAM, 1x COR, 1x insert random relic/mythic/empy job everything will get stomped in your face. that pt has almost the double fire power compared to a normal PT sporting a 2 song brd, normal whm, cor, normal DDs x3. Not to mention the defensiv messures the setup could take due to availability of more buffs/yagrush/ etc. without sacrificing much dmg.

[ccl]

Are you guys trying to say that it's my fault that shit is piss easy cause we farmed relics and mythics and I shouldn't complain cause the average FFXI player doesn't have that?

[Damane]

Back at 75 they released mob assuming everyone has relic(AV/PW) when it wasn't really possible so why the fuck do they totally ignore those weapon now? You may think it was impossible but some LS were able to survive AV past bracelet mode and only lacked the damage check; I'm sure with current knowledge and all relic they would prolly beat it now.

Another kind of content: Einherjar or Legion: Simply put room with enough mob for damage check that if you don't meet it, you can't clear in time and pop the last wave/boss it would give us a REASON to farm those 0.2% increase sidegrade since right now everything is a joke that most don't bother with it.

Another gear check event?: Ultima@ 75; they could release a mob with the same mechanic(but would need to be multi hit to ignore scherzo/ea and do it multiple time to ignore PD).

this would be imho bad design and AV + PW were never created for people that have relics. SE never stated that. Infact they even stated that they were intended to be nearly impossible to win.
While gear plays a large role, the amount of buffs impacts a party way more then anything else. would you be happy to face a battle that requires you to have a 4 song brd + mythic geo + yagrush whm + 3x koga sams to even stand a chanc at a win? Thats just insane and it shouldnt be expected. Unless SE lowers the gap between 3 and 4 song brds and RME vs non RME DDs, RME tanks vs non RME tanks, i dont see that being good design.

[arus2001]

Or imagine if songs dropped if the BRD left the party...

There's only so much difficulty the XI engine can achieve, I think. The environments we fight in haven't been a factor too often, with Diabolos being the big standout with the dropping tiles. I could encourage SE to churn out more mechanics/gimmicks, but they're not very good at cluing in players about such things. Exception being Omega.

Are you guys trying to say that it's my fault that shit is piss easy cause we farmed relics and mythics and I shouldn't complain cause the average FFXI player doesn't have that?

You beat the game.

Playing above the projected average might not be "your fault" per se, but it is your fault if you're expecting others to be up to the same standard in majority. Take a break, enjoy another game, come back with a good patch. Or you might not. There's lots out there to keep folks busy nowadays.

[Damane]

Are you guys trying to say that it's my fault that shit is piss easy cause we farmed relics and mythics and I shouldn't complain cause the average FFXI player doesn't have that?

actually yeah, you made the game easy for yourself, as did my group.

[EjinCaitsith]

What else can SE add that they haven't added to make 'Difficult' content. Mobs already have instagib moves. I'm honestly looking for answers to this question because adding more difficult content just seems funny...because no matter what they throw at us, it will all end up being easy for those already decked out.

A paradigm that they have used in the past: Ultimate weapons that tie in many aspects of the current endgame to complete that takes time, gil and extreme dedication to obtain that only 1% of the population will realistically obtain in a year.

When only <1% of the population had a relic or mythic weapon did that make everyone angry and instantly quit? No, not really. Having an ultimate weapon system like that makes the top 10% of players happy because they now have a long term goal to work on. 50% don't think they'd do it anytime soon, but maybe some day they might so they start working on portions of the quest that they can manage. Then the rest don't give a shit and won't even bother.

It's healthy to have at least 1 event in the game that's focused on the game's best/most dedicated players. It keeps them happy while it creates hype and hopes to those that can't clear it that one day they will(and when they finally do, nothing can match that feeling when you accomplish something that only a few can). I have no problem with scaling difficulty, but VD needs to offer something besides a title and higher drop rates, 1-2 VD exclusive items, maybe +1 versions of VE-D gear.

[Draylo]

Or imagine if songs dropped if the BRD left the party...

There's only so much difficulty the XI engine can achieve, I think. The environments we fight in haven't been a factor too often, with Diabolos being the big standout with the dropping tiles. I could encourage SE to churn out more mechanics/gimmicks, but they're not very good at cluing in players about such things. Exception being Omega.


You beat the game.

Playing above the projected average might not be "your fault" per se, but it is your fault if you're expecting others to be up to the same standard in majority. Take a break, enjoy another game, come back with a good patch. Or you might not. There's lots out there to keep folks busy nowadays.

Except people that are casual that engage in the current content are also bored. What the hell do you, or more specifically casuals, want from the game? Seems to me you look at anything remotely hard in disgust simply because you don't have the playtime or ability to do it. Why should SE cater to you specifically and completely ignore anyone else? I really fail to see how that is fair at all. You can beat all of Delve with eminent gear, reforged gear and the weapons from that one NPC. You don't need R/E/M at all in current FFXI, it just makes you clear things a little faster. 3 song bard are the norm now with the new equipment and you don't need more than that especially since you can cap haste w/o a bard now. What exactly is it that you want? You so vehemently oppose giving anyone who likes challenging things something to do as a group, why is that?

[arus2001]

I have no problem with scaling difficulty, but the highest needs to offer something besides a title and higher drop rates, 1-2 VD exclusive items, maybe +1 versions of VE-D gear.

So they can get that and then just bitch about being bored again while playing smug over the scrubs? Forgive me for not caring to give them that satisfaction.

Dynamis didn't really work back in the day because a few charismatic people or thieves could put a weapon together. No, people were hoping for things like relic gear and then maybe a little spending money on the side. How many out there jumped ship from a shell when they got what they wanted? My guess, a lot. Dynamis itself wasn't exactly fun, especially after the 10th time.

Goals are fine. Content one can never hope to experience, however, isn't. That's not what I want my sub fee to go toward and since subs aren't on opt in basis for specific development, well, folks will have to cope with me and others like me saying no to shit like that. No item in an MMO should take more than 40 hours to acquire. When you start multiplying that against possible equipment slots, the grind adds up.

You so vehemently oppose giving anyone who likes challenging things something to do as a group, why is that?

And yet you make it sound like everyone has everything from Delve in one clear with mediocre gear. That's not the reality of the situation. They're still going to have to run it over and over to get the good stuff via drops or currency. In the ideal scenario, most folks would have that gear by the time the next battle content batch rolls around and the cycle repeats anew. "Gimme my hard shit with the special shiniez!" and you get the scenario where when that next tier does come out, you won't want to do it because the gear is equal or lesser to that old "hard" shit you got. If the insistence, then, is SE just keep doubling up on content, well, we're back to the reality of over-stressing their skeleton crew. Events with difficulty levels are generally easier to make than two entirely different events.

So, yeah, keep being mad some low-man group can get the same stuff as your alliance.

[Draylo]

Why is something like that content you can't ever hope to experience? Why can't you join an existing group, start a shout and improve yourself so you can beat that content and obtain the item as well? The same thing happnes in XIV with Coil 2.0 yet I don't see people bitching about that 24/7. They realize they have a goal to work towards.

[Seha]

Long term goals, that's the key imo. Something that takes time to complete(and not cause of 1% drops) so that most hardcores will still tackle it first and feel ahead of the pack, but casuals aren't locked out of it, will just need a longer time.

Difficult fights can be implemented for 6-men too, don't need alli content or worse exclusive stuff like some people suggested the past weeks.

[ccl]

The only thing I see in this thread is "I have no friend/no playtime/couldn't do hard content so I hope they keep adding content only for me" the only thing we want is a single hard event with worthy reward is it really too much to ask for ?

[Karbuncle]

Not to be a bother, but could always borrow a few things from XIV. Anyway, before I go on to mention things that could make a fight more difficult without utilizing shit like "Death-ga" (unless preventable), I would like to say DPS checks aren't substitutes for difficulty, but in a game like XI It might be a good thing to do in some ways... since without a DPS check even difficult fights will simply become zergs, ala Bahamut v2 and most content in that era. Anyway, some of my suggestion for "Difficult" fights might involve use of your brain more... or use of different tactics that are there to provide a break from zerging, but not entirely to simply delay the fight. I made a fake-fight idea way back in an FFXIAH thread that would give you a general idea of what I think could make a difficult fight... honestly, think Carbuncle Prime. As far as FFXIV bit, could implement stuff like Demon Wall, a DPS check with brain involved too.

Anyway, in XIV it would be hard to make a difficult fight without just creating zerg-stalls or absurd resistances and so forth. I mean, I could think of many a way to make a fight a bit more difficult, but it would involve certain stalls/behavoirs. For instance, maybe a mob runs a check on what type of damage it received the most of in the last 20% of its HP, and builds heavy resistance to that type for the next 20% until it checks again, but that would have to be a tactic for a larger team, because as a small team it would be hard to deal with.

Or, after 25% of the enemies HP, it runs to the center of the battlefield, quits attacking, and readies a strong attack that can be avoided by performing a certain task... Line of sight, healing, standing on certain squares... these things have come to play in both XIV and XI (Square = Diabolos, Line of sight = Anantaboga, Healing = Odin). So on, so forth.

Anyway, as far as stalls and difficulty, The fight i described on XIAH was:

Spoiler: show

Main Boss, THF/WAR: 200,000 HP
Uses - All Dagger weaponskills, All Marksmanship Weapnskills, and access to certain Job Abilities. Also 1 Unique WS, Cyclonic Rupture*
Alll Phase behavoir: Will ranged attack players more than 15 away with random status bolts for mild damage, occasionally using ranged WS on them regardless of hate.
*Cyclonic Rupture - AoE wind damage, Knockback, and Inflicts Choke and gravity.

Starts battle against Main Boss, uses lower end non-RME Dagger WS (anything pre-Evisc). Once it drops to 80% HP, it will use the /jobemote THF and vanish. In her place spawns 2 new enemies. They are:

BLU/NIN - 50,000 HP: BLU/NIN has access to all sword weaponskill, Chain Affinity, Burst Affinity, and all Blue magics. BLU/NIN will aggressively protect WHM/SCH, attacking anyone who hits her by using Sudden Lunge following by Chain/burst self skillchain regardless of TP. BLU/NIN will usually use single-target BLU spells, but if more than 3 people are in 15', he will favor AoE ones, if less than 3, he will favor stronger single target spells. At 50%, he will Azure Lore and gain access to the HNM BLU spells as well, always using Harden Shell first, followed by attempted self skillchaining. if WHM/SCH is defeated first, he will enrage, raising his attack speed, spell potency, and accuracy.
*Special abilities, Weaponskill - "Primal Instinct": Grants BLU/NIN an Accuracy, Attack, Magic accuracy, and Magic Attack weaponskills.

WHM/SCH - 40,000 HP: WHM/SCH will stand back and buff/heal the BLU/NIN, and will not attack unless hit first. when attacked, will first Repose the assaulter and back away. to resume healing. If attacked again will engage, gaining access to Offensive White magic and AoE Black Magic spells. At 50%, will Benediction and gain 50% cure potency and -50% cure casting time. if BLU/NIN is defeated first, her magic will be more powerful and her cures more potent.
*Special Abilities: If attacked, gains access to unique weaponskills "Divine Intervention" - Single target light damage that inflicts flash as well as grants Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx, and haste to WHM/SCH.

==Phase 2==
Once defeated, Phase 2 will begin... during Phase 2, THF/WAR will gain access to Mercy Stroke and Aeolien Edge. It will also be able to use Sneak Attack, which will be followed by "Hide", shortly after he will appear behind the player third on the hate list and Rudra's... This is the only time he will Rudra's(which should really hurt but not kill if you're in PDT set, hint hint). Afterwards, he will engage the person with the most enmity once more. Once he falls to 40%, he will despawn and 2 more will spawn in his place.

RDM/RNG-50,000HP: Uses all Sword and Archery Weaponskills, including a unique AoE weaponskill called "Dark Messenger". Darkness damage, Defense down, and Bio. He will buff and cure NIN/SAM, as well as himself. If not targeted, he will assist NIN/SAM with his target, and skillchain with him as well as magic burst the skillchain. If assisting, will only shoot from range, as well as cast Tier 1 nukes with decent Magic Damage+. At 50% will use Chainspell and gain access to AoE debuffs and AoE buffs. At 15% will Eagle Eye shot. If NIN/SAM is defeated first, He will gain a strong fast cast and cast higher tier nukes.

NIN/SAM-60,000HP: Uses all katana weaponskills, as well as Meditate, Sekkinoki, (Self skillchain JA i forget), and Yonin. Will randomly target enemies more than 10' away with strong single target :SAN spells as well as turn to Shuriken them for mid-range damage. At 50% will Meikyo and self-skillchain... if RDM/RNG is still alive he will Magic Burst. at 5% he will Mijin Gakure. if RDM/RNG is defeated first, he will gain a stronger Dual Wield effect and a substantial accuracy boost.
*Special Abilities, unique weaponskill "Blade: 分散させる" (Disperse). A 5-hit single target attack, removes all debuffs and transfers them to the target.

==Phase 3==
Once both are defeated the final phase will begin. During the final phase, THF/WAR gains access to all weaponskills, but will favor Cyclone/Aeolian/Cyclonic if more than 3 players in 15'. Will still be able to SA > Hide. However, will also gain access to "Trick Attack" Which will spawn a random ally from the previous 4 who will use one ability and vanish.

BLU/NIN - Will use an AoE BLU spell from a small list of the less-troublesome ones, as well as a random BLU buff.
WHM/SCH - Will use Divine Seal Cure VI, granting a strong stoneskin to THF/WAR.
RDM/RNG - Will cast a strong undispellable buff on the THF/WAR (Haste II, etc), or use a weaker version of Dark Messenger.
NIN/SAM Will grant THF/WAR 100 TP and use a WS on the current target, opening it for a skillchain.

at 20% he will use Perfect Dodge, gaining the ability to avoid all attacks, melee, physical, and magic. During this phase he will gain an enhanced Triple attack rate as well as shoot those out of range more frequently. During this phase, he will also gain access to a unique ability "Grand Larceny", similar effect to Larceny, except it will steal all buffs from the target. He will use this only once at 10%HP.

Now, theres a lot of unique abilities triggered by range and such, for some its AoE ws, others ranged attacks to those out of range... its brings pro and cons to a RNG strategy. for instance, if RNG are used on BLU, his list of spells will be lessened to the more powerful single targets, if more are in range, he will use the aoe ones... for THF/WAR, he will favor AoE Weaponskills but they're all wind based, so you can prepare for them, as opposed to his single targets which can vary from mild to powerful.

[arus2001]

Why is something like that content you can't ever hope to experience?

Why can't you join an existing group...

That thing you want to do might not always be what others want to do at any given moment. Try being an off-prime time player. XI is even worse at this due to lack of matching tools.

start a shout and improve yourself so you can beat that content and obtain the item as well?

See above. Only now you're waiting indefinitely with a revolving door of players coming and going until finally you maybe get a group together or have to log because it took too long. Repeat ad nauseum.

The same thing happnes in XIV with Coil 2.0 yet I don't see people bitching about that 24/7. They realize they have a goal to work towards.

You don't pay attention to XIV much, do you.

The lock-out mechanic is probably one of the biggest offenses to Coil at the moment. It demands people play in statics, not only to master and beat the content, but to best assure fair loot distribution when/if something drops. However, the further into the Coil process you are, the more catastrophic losing a member of this static becomes. Not only will you likely to have to teach a new person the fights, if they're actually capable, but you're probably going to be stalled as they need to gear up, too. This, assuming, you do find someone that doesn't demand bringing a friend of theirs or causing drama with other members, resulting in further fragmentation of the group.

So, is beating it and getting gear a goal? Sure. Is it as easy doing it as saying it? Hell no. And that's your continued problem. You just say to do something with zero consideration of the outside factors a player can experience. Hell, at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if this awesome LS of yours you claim to do things in even exists, as I would assume another member or two might haunt here and occasionally back you up. Instead, it's just the same old condescension that people suck, aren't trying hard enough, and have no friends, so screw 'em. And then they wonder why I don't want to reward that behavior.

[Draylo]

So pretty much all I'm getting from your post is that YOU don't have the playtime and that is why you oppose one or two events being like this. You are sounding like the most selfish person here, not myself or others advocating for hard/alliance content. I also don't need people to back me up, I couldn't care less if you personally disagree with me or my opinion as it doesn't change anything.

[ccl]

So pretty much all I'm getting from your post is that YOU don't have the playtime and that is why you oppose one or two events being like this. You are sounding like the most selfish person here, not myself or others advocating for hard/alliance content. I also don't need people to back me up, I couldn't care less if you personally disagree with me or my opinion as it doesn't change anything.

Yup, I got the same ! And we're the selfish one for wanting to have something to do in game instead of cancelling sub.

[EjinCaitsith]

Why is something like that content you can't ever hope to experience?

Casuals get the majority of the content. Getting gear from said casual content(Skirmish/WKR/Reforge Armor/RoE/Bayld) can be used to easily beat Delve1 and 2 if you're able to find 5 other people that have a modicum of brain cells. Do you not see the point in the entire hierarchy of events? We just want something a step above Delve, which would not hurt casuals in any way as they work their way up the hierarchy at their own pace. Or are you seriously that butthurt if someone has a piece of gear that's 1% DPS better than yours because you're not willing to grind out 50 hours for it?

[scaevola]

Except people that are casual that engage in the current content are also bored.

Casuals are bored because, fairly or not, they find themselves locked out of content by a community that would rather sit in Adoulin complaining about being bored than go do a VE/E AA or Tojil (or even a non-boss Delve run!) with whatever's lying around.

One time, I tried to put together a PuG for a to-be-determined VE AA (bring your PUP; who gives a shit?) and oh man, the hate-tells.



I don't really know what the solution is other than starting an LS specifically for people to organize runs of easy stuff you still need a group for, but I'll definitely say the one event that came close to getting it right in my experience was actually Voidwatch: no incentive to low-man and mechanics that forced group leaders to be flexible with invites.