Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Prothescar]

If it wasn't SE then F2P with optional sub model would be great for XI

[Malithar]

Not because I love paying subscription fees but because it would just end up being pay to win and people would pay more money for less content.

That's what I've hated about most of the F2P games I've tried. Sure, you don't have to buy access to the newest content, but then why play at all? DDO got to that point, new dungeons/classes/reincarnations every few months, and it'd cost $20-30 to get it. Nevermind their terrible excuse of expansions, full price expansions that offered about as much content as the first 3 months of SoA with no further support or additions, unless you wanted to pay for em.

I may not happily hand over $13 every month, but I'd vastly prefer to do that then to pay nothing for a month or two then shell out $40+ to get the newest content.

[Shenrien]

That's not really how F2P works. The way F2P works is you're killing things having a great time and enjoying content, when suddenly, WHAM! You do a BC and a boss drops a treasure box, inside the box contains exclusive loot when you open it. The only problem is you need to buy a key to open it and that key is $4, and the treasure that you get out of it is random from a massive pool that contains potions and crafting materials and other shit. Making the chances of you getting what you want out of said box relativity low but in the process of all that you get crafting mats that could be sold off for useless gil, so it's kinda lose-win depending on how you look at it.

They could also come out with neat gear that looks cool or cute or w/e the hell, and acts like a permanent /lockstyle so everyone including yourself see's you in something totally different like some school girl outfit with a baseball cap or something that totally would stand out as odd in XI's world.

[dasva]

Dying before the mob even loads on screen in the new skirmish is what the besieged reference was. I don't think it's going to be that way though since there won't be 700 people in the zone + npcs + 200 mobs. If there's congestion it will just prevent you from entering at all.

I won't care for a free to play set up either. Not because I love paying subscription fees but because it would just end up being pay to win and people would pay more money for less content.

While I doubt it will be as bad as besieged back in the day I wouldn't doubt death before loads on shittier connections. Like a year ago when I happened to be playing on some shitty dsl doing delve 1 sometimes people would be fighting by the time I loaded enough just to be able to buff myself

[Priran]

That's not really how F2P works. The way F2P works is you're killing things having a great time and enjoying content, when suddenly, WHAM! You do a BC and a boss drops a treasure box, inside the box contains exclusive loot when you open it. The only problem is you need to buy a key to open it and that key is $4, and the treasure that you get out of it is random from a massive pool that contains potions and crafting materials and other shit. Making the chances of you getting what you want out of said box relativity low but in the process of all that you get crafting mats that could be sold off for useless gil, so it's kinda lose-win depending on how you look at it.

They could also come out with neat gear that looks cool or cute or w/e the hell, and acts like a permanent /lockstyle so everyone including yourself see's you in something totally different like some school girl outfit with a baseball cap or something that totally would stand out as odd in XI's world.

that's how... like, TF2 works? most subscription-turned-F2P MMOs work like he described (LotRO, D&DO, etc)

[Shenrien]

Hmm I wouldn't know about P2P MMOs that went F2P to be honest, I was just going from what I remember seeing in MapleStory when I got addicted to that like 5 years ago and then realized that half the game was behind an invisible paywall and that getting to end game was nearly impossible if you were not either funded by someone or retardedly lucky with drops and self scrolling.

[arus2001]

It's always funny watching people describe F2P MMOs with a bias that betrays their lack of knowledge of how a lot of the western ones work nowadays.

Either way, Proth's assessment of it being SE the one who'd handle it is probably the bigger worry than the idea itself.

[Shenrien]

Tbh, the only western MMO I've actually sunk time into, and still continue to go back and play to this day is DAoC, everything else has been Japanese or Korean so when I think of F2P, I think of it done how they traditionally handle it, and this being a JMMORPG, it's only fair to assume they would handle it in a pay wall fashion much like the rest.

I find it kinda funny that a 13yr.o MMORPG looks and plays better than a 12yr.o but I guess that's what happens when a game is poorly ported to PC rather developed first and solely on PC and then ported to console, it kinda shows what bad long term planning looks like at the end of the day. I won't be shocked if XIV ends up falling into that same trap because developing for a console that just launched that is already a generation behind most current pc's, so gg.

[Priran]

If you want to see how SE handles a cash shop, look at Final Fantasy: All The Bravest for smartphones.

Basically:
$0.99 to buy a character, which are pixel-art versions of characters from previous FFs. Which one you get is random. I think there are about 30.
If you lose a fight, you have to wait for your party to revive, one at a time every 3 minutes. Your party can hold 40 people. Or use a cash shop item, $0.99 per 3.
Gameplay: Slide characters across the screen at the enemy as quickly as you can, with no regard for strategy.
$4 expansion packs of content.

[dasva]

It's always funny watching people describe F2P MMOs with a bias that betrays their lack of knowledge of how a lot of the western ones work nowadays.

Either way, Proth's assessment of it being SE the one who'd handle it is probably the bigger worry than the idea itself.

I confess I myself aren't too familiar with them... but what does western F2P have to do with how a Japanese company might do one?

[arus2001]

I confess I myself aren't too familiar with them... but what does western F2P have to do with how a Japanese company might do one?

It's just more the bias the F2P itself is the devil, either insinuating anything and everything is locked behind pay walls (even if what is winds up less than a monthly sub over time) or the common argument that it'd be full of nothing but juvenile teenagers because they don't need mommy and daddy's credit card. As if that stops them from playing sub games.

Right now, Rift probably has the best F2P model of the games I'm personally aware of. Their upcoming expansion is even free, the only "forced" expense being new souls if you like what they have to offer. And even then, you can just play the game and buy shop currency from other players with plat and never actually pay a dime. Granted, ArchAge is kind of looking like shit with its model, but it's also beta and I suspect Trion is still working with the Koreans there to finalize things.

[Priran]

(even if what is winds up less than a monthly sub over time)

F2P cash shop game = terrible. There is no exception. I think EVE has probably the only workable F2P model, which is that the game is F2P in the sense that you can pay your subscription fee in in-game currency.

[Prothescar]

rift has the best F2P model I've ever seen executed

[Damane]

I allways fear that with F2P you start to pay at some point more then when paying a monthly fee, but I cant say for sure since i never played a F2P MMO. I would only welcome a F2P FFXI if they would advertise it tons to get some new fresh blood in.

[Seha]

I don't see how FFXI would work with a f2p model. Maybe XIV, but not XI...I mean what are you gonna even buy in this game if it's not pay2win(and in which case I don't know why any of you would consider that cool). Graphics are somewhat old so fashion isn't really gonna cut it, there are no mounts, no pets..what are we gonna buy, gil? Some people already do that lol.

[Karbuncle]

I mean, if they had a vanity system where you could chose 1 piece of armor to look like another, like GW2, you could always sell Vanities. If we had "minions", you could always sell those. If we had a dye system... could sell those. FFXI has none of them, and technically nothing to sell that wouldn't be Pay2Win. I mean, they could introduce Locked boxes and keys, but I'm sure SE would find a way to mess that up, and personally I was never a fan of those anyway. You could also, I guess, sell Vanity gear that just requires you to constantly /lockstyle when you zone, which would be a pain... A game is designed, usually, to be free to play, any Subscription MMO that goes fTP and suddenly a cash shop appears almost certainly had that plan tucked away and ready to execute when subs began dropping... FFXI is a more than a decade old game and its options for a F2P shop are limited, because back then that wasn't really a trend for MMOs... I can only think of very few things that wouldn't hurt anyone too much.

Forgotten Items Sets (I.E sets of 50 forgotten items)
Empyrean +1 Items (Enough for 1 upgrade, maybe bundle packs for 1 set)
Empyrean +2 Items (Enough for 1 upgrade maybe bundle packs for 1 set)
AF upgrade Items (Both, again, possible bundle packs for all 5 pieces of AF)
R/EX Dummy Weapons (Fake AA weapons, all old event stuff, etc)
R/EX Dummy Armor. (Same as above, armor)
Vanity Armor (Possibly 1 piece, body, that changes all 5 slots/entire outfit)
Locked Chest (no idea what they could contain)

I mean, they could always take it a step further and allow us to buy 109/119 upgrade items, but even these are close to Pay2Win, outdated items or not... hell even "Locked Chests" would need something tantalizing to get, what could it be? I'm sure a few people might buy a Vanity set that makes you look like an Onion Knight, or Squall, or Sephiroth, etc... but to what end? making a cash shop is almost always something thats planned from the beginning, and in most MMOs its Vanity items, Dyes, Minions, or Upgrades that are as good as alternatives but provide a unique model/look... other times its in-game currency, and so forth, and almost all of them, if not all of them, contain a "Locked chest" type item, because people get a thrill out of gambling rather they like it or not.

I simply do not see FFXI going F2P and still being profitable, it would either have to drastically change how the game currently is in an almost complete shift to Pay-2-Win, or be an ocean of Vanity items that simply would not keep the game afloat, at least not for very long once the novelty wears off. I'd like to think most F2P MMOs get off on sales of their "Keys" alone.

[pancakesandsex]

that's how... like, TF2 works? most subscription-turned-F2P MMOs work like he described (LotRO, D&DO, etc)

Imagine if it cost 4$ to open the box in voidwatch instead of a voidstone.

[Karbuncle]

Imagine if it cost 4$ to open the box in voidwatch instead of a voidstone.

Okay, I admit to not being keen to the f2P MMO market, as I've only ever played a few f2p MMO games... but I don't know any game that pumps out content that players have to defeat and pay for their drops at the end. However, if you know a game that releases content that makes players participate in endgame activities, only to be met with a pay wall when they're getting their drops, lemme know... cause I can't imagine its a successful MMO.

[Draylo]

Plz just stop, no F2P.

[Karbuncle]

Not asking for F2P, in fact against the idea, simply saying its not as bad as people make it seem, at least not when done right.