Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Hitou]

Interested to see what damage will be like from Puppet WS after the update. If it's anything like player ws adjustments maybe it won't be so groan worthy when a puppet uses arcuballista because you didn't put the right maneuver up in time. And maybe valoredge won't suck so bad! Aw, who am I kidding?

[ccl]

I hope they ninja nerf fudo.

[Sechs]

I'd disagree, and I <3 Geo to death.

Brd can spread out their buffs as needed, Cor too to a certain degree. Refresh the mages, +DD buffs to DDs, whatever buffs the tank wants, etc. Geo is still limited to two, and should it split the two from focusing on one aspect, it's hindering it's ability to buff by quite a lot.

Sure, it could replace a Brd, but what do you lose? Indi-Haste the DDs, Geo-Frailty the NM, more or less the same purpose as a Brd doing minuets and marches. But what about the Whm blowing through MP in the backline? So you run back and Indi-Refresh him, Geo-Haste the melees, but now it's as if they're without minuets. It's a give/take, and with Brds ability to spread out buffs, 2 is just too short to make it work, IMO.

Brd + Geo though, that's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, I see those as limits to GEO as well, in addition to the fact that you have to physically be in range (either to apply the buff to DDs or to place the Luopan) and need to constantly resummon the Luopan, which makes it highly uneffective for sections where you have to move a lot.
I guess this is the price to pay for powerful and undispellable buffs?

As for the WHM needing refresh, how effective would using that JA that gives MP when you desummon the Luopan be? Guess not enough.


How do you propose they could fix these issues without giving GEO a third thing (which honestly seems like it would be a bit too much imho).
How about giving GEO Enhancing skill, and giving them a couple of unique cool but not too powerful spells? Or maybe Refresh II? Would that make RDM too mad about it or would that be acceptable nowadays that RDM got other cool unique tools?
Giving GEO some basic enhancing spells would also remove the need to go /RDM so that would kinda open up other options (/NIN? /BLU? /BLM? )
I'm a bit ignorant on GEO, do you think this might work in theory or it would be complete crap?

[ccl]

Well isn't geo with current gear/egon def down much much better than 2-3 minuet ? Specially if you add dia II? You'd lose refresh on whm for more dmg!

[Dotsudoku]

Not to mention that if you're in an alliance, you have more than one buffer, and if you're not, your healer really shouldn't be having tremendous MP issues

Of course I'm not saying BRD doesn't have an edge or two over GEO, just saying it's probably not going to be affecting any outcomes

[Byrthnoth]

NIN, RUN, PLD, BLU, GEO, WAR, and arguably DRK get useful updates.

DRG and THF get useless updates.

All is right with the world.

Spoiler: show

The 3 second forced delay after casting is the real problem with casting on DRK, not the <2 second casting time on Absorb spells. So SE just reduced the delay from 3+2*(1-FC%) to 3+0.5*(1-FC%). It doesn't hurt, but it's only saving you a second or so.

[Malithar]

How do you propose they could fix these issues without giving GEO a third thing (which honestly seems like it would be a bit too much imho).
How about giving GEO Enhancing skill, and giving them a couple of unique cool but not too powerful spells? Or maybe Refresh II? Would that make RDM too mad about it or would that be acceptable nowadays that RDM got other cool unique tools?
Giving GEO some basic enhancing spells would also remove the need to go /RDM so that would kinda open up other options (/NIN? /BLU? /BLM? )
I'm a bit ignorant on GEO, do you think this might work in theory or it would be complete crap?

Honestly, I'd just like to see a JA added that blows up your current loupan and gives it's buff/debuff to surrounding targets for 3 min. Could even give it a 5 min CD so it can't be full timed. Caveat would be that it's dispelable like any other buff. Potency is fine on them at this point IMO.

The enhancing magic bit would be awkward since Geo has no enhancing magic or skill at this point. I'd like it, but it'd feel like a cheap fix that didn't really offer anything new, outside of offering new spells. But that'd honestly just make Geo step on Rdm even more so then it already does. I've got both 99'd and geared, and even in Pld+Rng fights I still come Geo. Flurry, Distract, Dia II, Grav in case of non-relic or dumb Rngs, all the curing the Pld would need on anything shy of EV, plus 2x bubbles.

And Radial Arcana gives back 285 (I think, I don't even pay attention anymore) every 5 min when 5/5'd + relic augment.

Well isn't geo with current gear/egon def down much much better than 2-3 minuet ? Specially if you add dia II? You'd lose refresh on whm for more dmg!

No doubt, and on fights that the refresh isn't needed, or a Whm isn't even needed, it works fine. I can't remember the last time a pug didn't want a Whm though, no matter how unneeded it was for the content. If their goal is to make Geo a desired replacement to a Brd, which is also sought after for nearly every pug, it'll need a way to support both, outside of splitting their buffs and not supporting one or the other as much as is needed. Stuff like Skirmish it works well as a replacement, though I really wish we had an Indi-Runnigga~ for Ra'kaznar.

Not to mention that if you're in an alliance, you have more than one buffer, and if you're not, your healer really shouldn't be having tremendous MP issues

Of course I'm not saying BRD doesn't have an edge or two over GEO, just saying it's probably not going to be affecting any outcomes

Really depends on the content I guess. Something like Tenzen, GK, Gessho, etc, I'd agree. Whm could just ride sublimation/Refresh and be just fine. But Lancelord, Ouryu, EV, etc, they'd end up hurting at some point. I don't mind that Brd has an edge over Geo in that regard. But SE needs to realize that until there's a way to pass around the support that's needed, they can't run around billing Geo as a Brd replacement. Most groups just won't take that risk. Never mind that most people have no clue what they're doing on the job.

[Seha]

Damn, when are they giving cor dual wield for guns?! *dreams big*

[Sechs]

Honestly, I'd just like to see a JA added that blows up your current loupan and gives it's buff/debuff to surrounding targets for 3 min. Could even give it a 5 min CD so it can't be full timed. Caveat would be that it's dispelable like any other buff. Potency is fine on them at this point IMO.

That's a cool idea and more in-line with what GEO currently is.
It would also give a small degree of personalization (if people position themselves in the right spot when you use the JA. Good luck with that tho )
But would it really solve the issue?

The enhancing magic bit would be awkward since Geo has no enhancing magic or skill at this point.

Yeah but I seem to recall there are a couple of precedents? I can't remember but I think it happened already in the past to other jobs. Maybe I'm wrong.
I think when they initially created GEO as a buffer they meant it like a hybrid job, one that can also focus on damage (-ra spells, elemental and dark skill, cardinal chant etc). Sorta like COR is too, in a way.
I may be wrong but I don't think that played out very well in the end, or did it?
Giving GEO enhancing skill and a couple of unique but not too powerful enha spells (or maybe other currently exclusive spells like mentioned Refresh II) would emphasize GEO's role as a buffer more than a X-minutes cooldown JA, it might open up more sj options and it would compliment well with target-specific buffs, even if dispellable ones, which would be kinda nice to partially cover one of GEO's current biggest limit.

I don't see it happening either, but it seemed like a cool idea. Too much work for them though, probably.

But that'd honestly just make Geo step on Rdm even more so then it already does.

GEO? Or Indra GEO? They're kinda two different leagues. I can see Indra Geo "trumping RDM", but "normal" GEO?
RDM still has other very specific things, group2 merits, tier 2 spells, RDM can be a healer-buffer in place of WHM in some circumstances, I don't see that happening on GEO for instance. RDM can stay at distance, GEO needs to move and stay close, etc. Different pros and cons.
I don't really see GEO "trumping" RDM, altough it's clear they have a certain degree of interchangeability, no?

And Radial Arcana gives back 285 (I think, I don't even pay attention anymore) every 5 min when 5/5'd + relic augment.

Ew... I was expecting bigger numbers there =/

[Damane]

geo/rdm offers great buffs/debuffs with distract/frazzle/indi haste. a geo/rdm can give the melees geo/indi haste casthaste on top to cap melees on magical haste. now add distract on top and thats like haveing 2 marches & 1 madrigal, while leaving the whm the opportunity to come /sch and geo still has a buff at their disposal. increased potency will fix geo most likely and bring it on par with 4 song bards

[Sechs]

increased potency will fix geo most likely and bring it on par with 4 song bards

I sure hope that's not the case! I wouldn't mind for Indra GEO maybe, but a normal GEO shouldn't really be as good as a job that requires a Relic and an expensive Empyreal to reach what most people here considers the "standard", but it's actually just a peak reached by a minority of players.
It would kinda mean that 3songs non horn bards can go fuck up themselves and I don't think saying this, to any job actually, would be "healthy" for this game.
This goes even more especially for buffer jobs who do not offer much aside from their buffs (and BRD even more than COR or GEO or SMN).

[Damane]

I sure hope that's not the case! I wouldn't mind for Indra GEO maybe, but a normal GEO shouldn't really be as good as a job that requires a Relic and an expensive Empyreal to reach what most people here considers the "standard", but it's actually just a peak reached by a minority of players.
It would kinda mean that 3songs non horn bards can go fuck up themselves and I don't think saying this, to any job actually, would be "healthy" for this game.
This goes even more especially for buffer jobs who do not offer much aside from their buffs (and BRD even more than COR or GEO or SMN).

with the exeption that bard can give everyone whatever songs they want

[Sechs]

In Theory: yes. In reality: there's a limit to that. (altough I'm not denying that BRD offers way higher customization in their buffs than other buffer jobs).
According to me Indra balance shoul be on par with Horn/Harp bard, with different pros and cons making it slightly better somewhere and slightly worse somewhere else.

A non Indra GEO shouldn't be as good as a Horn/Harp BRD, aside from very specific fights maybe.
I don't think the difference should be huge, but there should be one, imho.
So the "increased potency" shouldn't bring a GEO on par with a Horn/Harp BRD in my opinion. Closer? Yes. Small difference? Yes. Par/better in specific fights? Absolutely yes. On par in general? No.
(just my view on the thing, of course)

[Malithar]

But would it really solve the issue?

It'd solve my only complaint about the job. There's a lot of interesting bubbles available, -Att, +MDB, +MAcc, etc. But outside of niche situations or solos, it's hard to justify using them over focusing on your melees. +Att, +Acc, +Haste, -Def all trump those with how we play the game anymore. Being able to put a third effect out would allow you to use those niche options, or get Refresh on your mages (and yourself, since Conserve MP, even when geared for it, just isn't enough).

Yeah but I seem to recall there are a couple of precedents? I can't remember but I think it happened already in the past to other jobs. Maybe I'm wrong.

They did for Geo shortly after Delve 1 was added, they added a base Enfeebling Magic skill. There might be others I'm not aware of though.

I think when they initially created GEO as a buffer they meant it like a hybrid job, one that can also focus on damage (-ra spells, elemental and dark skill, cardinal chant etc). Sorta like COR is too, in a way.
I may be wrong but I don't think that played out very well in the end, or did it?

It played out extremely well really, on anything that magic damage is useful or not resisted all to hell. N BCs or lower are fine. D BCs are rough without Focus, even with good gear, and you're still only looking at 300-500ish unresisted T1s. VDs are more or less impossible to nuke as far as I've seen, even being silly and stacking Focus and Languor. Delve NMs and bosses though are pretty well tuned for magic damage, 2k+ from the appropriate element.

GEO? Or Indra GEO? They're kinda two different leagues. I can see Indra Geo "trumping RDM", but "normal" GEO?
RDM still has other very specific things, group2 merits, tier 2 spells, RDM can be a healer-buffer in place of WHM in some circumstances, I don't see that happening on GEO for instance. RDM can stay at distance, GEO needs to move and stay close, etc. Different pros and cons.
I don't really see GEO "trumping" RDM, altough it's clear they have a certain degree of interchangeability, no?

Rdm's only place IMO is a Rng strat. It's not that they can't perform in a melee setup, but their lack of AoE healing really hinders them in that regard. I can't really comment on pre-Idris, as by time Distract and Flurry was added, I had it already, and I dunno non-Idris numbers off hand anymore. In a Rng strat, Rdm brings the same healing ability as a Geo more or less, Flurry II, Distract II, Dia III, and Refresh II if MP is an issue for them. Geo brings Flurry I, Distract I, Dia II, Refresh, and two bubbles. +Acc/att the Rngs and -Def the mob. I haven't seen numbers on Flurry and Flurry II, and no idea if Courser's Roll + Flurry I caps with a good Snapshot set or not, so I can't really say which is better. But I know I prefer the Geo route.

geo/rdm offers great buffs/debuffs with distract/frazzle/indi haste. a geo/rdm can give the melees geo/indi haste casthaste on top to cap melees on magical haste. now add distract on top and thats like haveing 2 marches & 1 madrigal, while leaving the whm the opportunity to come /sch and geo still has a buff at their disposal. increased potency will fix geo most likely and bring it on par with 4 song bards

Maybe that's my problem with the situation. I view Frailty as too strong to not use. It's ever so slightly stronger than a full time Angon, never mind Blaze/Ecliptic or Bolstered.

[Sechs]

Rdm brings the same healing ability as a Geo more or less

Emphasis on the more or less I guess maybe I'm overestimating the difference, but RDM should be better than a GEO when it comes to healing? RDM can go /WHM, GEO atm cannot, it brings some (weak) AoE, -na, divine seal etc.
Or /SCH for pretty much the same except Curagas (but accession!).
I figure Phalanxga can be useful somewhere, and RDM should have an edge with all of its "duration +%" stuff.
This should mean less time spent casting buffs > more time spent healing/casting other buffs. I think this is more useful than it might seem at first.
Also, aside from accession things, RDM can stay at distance. On GEO you'd need to get close and I don't really see it practical on many fights where targets have dangerous AoEs and you have to stay out of range. (edit: I was of course talking about pt setups with melees, it would be much less of an issue in a RNG setup, you'd have to get close just for the Luopan)

Oh the other hand you have the utility of undispellable stuff, and that makes it awesome on fights where you cannot avoid dispels.

I dunno, I don't see GEO (or BRD, or SMN) performing as good as RDM (or SCH!) when it comes to healing.
Or maybe there is a difference but I'm making it bigger than it really is? I'm not sure honestly, might be just my personal bias. But thinking about a GEO+COR or GEO+BRD setup, I'd be worried if the GEO offers to be the main healer, much less in a RDM+BRD or RDM+COR setup.

[Ophannus]

Pointless DRG updates. No matter how resilient they make the Wyvern, nothing will save it from dying when the Dragoon dies. The only time my Wyvern is outright killed is maybe on Delve 2 bosses or AA EV, and for those fights I'm just dicking around on DRG anyway. wyverns are already incredibly resilient, 40% DT, 2k+ HP, spirit link is a full heal with 33/tick regen and steady wing is like 2-3k stoneskin. The only time my wyvern rely dies is when I die. They would be better off lowering Call Wyvern recast to 10minutes and letting Spirit Surge reset Call Wyvern after absorbing it since it's the only 2hr that cripples the job that uses it for up to 20minutes(even mijin gakure was given reraise).

Lastly def and mdef are pointless because the shit that kills my wyvern is typically doom(can only remove once every 90sec) and breath attacks, both of which ignore mdef and def.

[Kincard]

(even mijin gakure was given reraise)

well, yeah, if you have a Nagi
what kind of loser actually got the nin mythic jesus

[Toth]

I really hope these weaponskill adjustment means I can finally use a different frame for DD than sharpshooter. Valoredge is a pretty versatile frame that sadly is underwhelming.

Yay to more GEO buffs though :D

[Sechs]

well, yeah, if you have a Nagi
what kind of loser actually got the nin mythic jesus

I know a guy called Kincard did that, on the Leviathan server. Man... that guy sure doesn't know a thing about NIN.
Inorite?!

Seriously now, is it still that bad these days? After the 119 version and WS rehaul? I thought it got much better (saw a guy on my server with it a few months ago but can't remember the name)

[Damane]

geo is NOT on par with rdm considering healing, its miles behind against a proper geared rdm. you could say geo is on par with smn or blm when it comey to healing. Lastly rdm is in an almost perfect spot all they need is temper castable on pt membets. saboteur distract 2 is almost equal (bit less) then 2 soulvoice gjallar madrigals. ladts 2.30 min for evety 5 mi . thats potent as fuck now add other debuffs on top and you could have some pretty pt setup combos. rdm & dnc & geo & 3dds could rock some fields with all their debuffs buffs healing capability at their disposal