Dev Tracker: Discussion

[dasva]

I'd be a fan of throwing WS but it might make NIN go over the top if it's anything like RNG WS. I can just see the epeen WS damage numbers now... I mean you can see some good damage with just sange. Just add some modifiers in there.....

Just how good of numbers are you getting with sange!?! Highest dmg shuriken is 88 even with capped shadows, capped pdif, capped fstr 2, all hits actually hitting and critting you are looking at what 2745 dmg but even under those perfect conditions it barely beats out melee dps from just auto attacking with good weapons at capped -delay. And that's not counting putting up shadow time. Though I'd imagine it would be somewhat better tp gain assuming you could actually get capped hit rates

[Ophannus]

New shurikena are gonna have like 230 base dmg most likely, just need 228 throwing on em and 40 ranged att/rajged acc and some recycle and nin are good. Shurikena are usually low enough delay anyway that they could do pretty good danage between swings.

[Byrthnoth]

If forced delay didn't exist then you might be right.

[Ophannus]

Well if the base damage is high enough, it could warrant it, say for example 280 damage shurikens, they could be spammed enough to be more or less equivalent "dmg' as a 2h weapon but with lower delay. Maybe they'll change Sange to be a self buff that gives Occ.throws 2-3 Shuriken for 3min duration 5min recast which could make it pretty badass.

Since there's no ranged WS, they could give Shuriken roughly the same equivalent base dmg as Gun+Bullet, not sure if less dmg is warranted due to shuirkens usually having very low delay, or if base dmg should be higher since NIN have lower ranged acc and there's not much incentive to throw since it's slower due to delay and lack of snapshot gear.

[Bukadan]

it would have to be significant enough to out perform regular dps as it stands now for it to be worth it. they said theyre making dual wield better im pretty sure so basically we have an unknown bar that theyd have to meet, which as it stands would be pretty difficult to do. we can agree they wont be successful in making throwing viable in VD content which is literally all that matters.

[Damane]

it would have to be significant enough to out perform regular dps as it stands now for it to be worth it. they said theyre making dual wield better im pretty sure so basically we have an unknown bar that theyd have to meet, which as it stands would be pretty difficult to do. we can agree they wont be successful in making throwing viable in VD content which is literally all that matters.

doesnt necessarly have to be better, comeing close to it with proper buffs/gear would be enough to warrant some flexibility in different fights and open up the options to stand close or far away from the mob.

[Reposado]

Am I the only one excited about the way they worded their adjustment to NIN enmity this patch? Adjustment of NIN's dual wield trait to allow more frequent WS to easy enmity generation. Am I reading this wrong?

[Kincard]

The only dev posts in the past relating to that have said they'll adjust it so that extra dual wield won't affect your TP gain. Basically, it's a change that's mostly only useful for people not using spellcast/gearswap or lazy people who don't want to calculate their current haste. It won't really change much at all.

As for throwing, they already said a while back they arn't really planning on throwing to be an alternate way of damage. Unless they changed their minds (and even if they did they'd need to add Shuriken with like 1000+ D to be useful) they're probably going to throw something useless like an enmity+ effect on it and think it fixes NIN's tanking in some way. It's times like these when I'm glad they probably don't give a shit about English feedback so that single guy who doesn't know how the game works thinks his echo chamber on the OF means anything.

4 new dev posts, but one was from a thread about people running around in Dynamis 24/7 and them reassuring players they care a lot about RMT, telling people to continue reporting to the STF etc.

[Bukadan]

everyone should spam the OF with "hard new content with appropriate rewards please!". not only to actually get this content, but to know who to burn alive for saying no!

[ccl]

People on this very thread don't want hard content it would exclude* casual

[Reposado]

The way I interpreted it was that they were going to adjust the TP gain from NIN dual wield altogether, ah well, wishful thinking

[Damane]

People on this very thread don't want hard content it would exclude* casual

thats not true, but designing content around RME weapons/instruments/shields isnt really a solution and good design. In other words as long as you run with a 4 song bard 3 mythic DDs/or whatever blabla, everything will seem easy to you. Only when you invalidate all those options (like the ilvl update did to some degree) will it work to make hard content.

[Hitou]

everyone should spam the OF with "hard new content with appropriate rewards please!". not only to actually get this content, but to know who to burn alive for saying no!

I suppose the "appropriate rewards" for "hard" content would be nothing? Anything remotely good would make the content "not hard" and therefore "not good," right? Content needs to kick your ass to be any fun so who cares if you get a shiny at the end? Or are you naive enough to think there can be any sort of dev team that can pump out content fast enough that is both very challenging and has exciting drops so that you are never bored?

Please don't misunderstand. I have nothing against hard content or ally content or any of the other stuff people constantly whine doesn't exist anymore. As if there were some glory days of olde we can never get back. But I also don't really care if it happens at this point. There are many avenues people can take to challenge themselves: take unique job set ups, use different weapons, God forbid play vanilla. But these things cause the player to make effort and it's the devs job to make the effort to challenge the elite, the chosen so that they will never again be bored.

But go ahead and keep saying anyone who has a differing opinion than you should die in a fire. That will definitely changes the hearts and minds of people, especially the dev team.

[ccl]

thats not true, but designing content around RME weapons/instruments/shields isnt really a solution and good design. In other words as long as you run with a 4 song bard 3 mythic DDs/or whatever blabla, everything will seem easy to you. Only when you invalidate all those options (like the ilvl update did to some degree) will it work to make hard content.

How do you want to make content challenging for good group if you don't account for item EVERY GOOD GROUP has? Right now it's you have to be behind on gear or the game is too easy.

[Damane]

How do you want to make content challenging for good group if you don't account for item EVERY GOOD GROUP has? Right now it's you have to be behind on gear or the game is too easy.

you can make challenging content for people with good gear. but you cant make challenging content for a weapon/instrument etc. that needs 3 month+ to be completed. Imho if you want challenging content this is the thing that would need to happen:
- Relic RNG enmity nerf
- brd and cor swap nerf (songs/rolls drop upon leaving the pt)
- makeing REM weapons obsolete by either introducing new easy to get weapons/instruments that are equally strong or stronger or make REM EASY achievable in one month for the average player.
- nerfing ochain blockrate and aegis MDT

you cant expect the general playerbase to grind out 3 month + weapons (in some cases some that need more time to complete) just to have a chance at clearing content. especially for returning/starting players (more like returning players) it would be a uphill battle to get somewhat ready to even be able to attend the fight.

hey i would like to have more challenging content too, but I am looking at it from a more realistic point of view: the few content we get will be definitly designed that any group sporting decent/good gear (but without REM) can clear it, its the most beneficial thing for the larger amount of the playerbase from the Dev point of view. Imho my group and your group have done the "wrong" thing, by haveing for almost any situation a 4 song bard coupled with a yagrush whm and 3 REM DDs/RNGs and/or a burtgang/aegis/ochain pld/insert(6. PT member with REM weapon or cor etc etc.)

they did this once with Delve 1 (delve 1 was at innitial release challenging for all/most groups and still was until the ilvl+ skill was added on the weapons), they invalidated almost all REMs, we have seen the outcry. They crawled back, do you really think they will do the same mistake again?

[Ophannus]

everyone should spam the OF with "hard new content with appropriate rewards please!". not only to actually get this content, but to know who to burn alive for saying no!

People don't like hard new content.

Remember Legion v1 when it was 36 members and NMs had 50% more HP and everyone whined at how impossible it is?

Hit points of enemies in 18-player Legion battlefields have been reduced to roughly half that of their 36-player counterparts.

Remember when they nerfed Legion NM's HP >>>AGAIN?<<<

Legion Adjustments
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%
This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

Remember when AV/PW/ADL were added and various people complained until they nerfed their HPs/attributes.
Remember when VW came out and everyone said how hard Kalasutrax and Botulus were and then they nerfed AoE damage?
Remember when Delve bosses were too hard without relic RNG and then they added ilvl stats?
Remember when they nerfed Odin II's HP?

Legion
Einherjar
Odin's Chamber II: Odin's HP will be reduced by around 10-15%.

You people don't want hard content because when they give it to you, you cry that it's too hard, then whine that it's too easy.

Hell even VW 1.0 was hard but then they added temp item refreshing with every stagger, synchronistic blitz, voidclusters and white procs and then all of a sudden 'its too easy!'.

[ccl]

Hmmm why would you nerf rng and pld while it's optimal for only DM VD ? I was quite happy when r/e/m got nerfed but I fear it will never happen again. Every good group has harp/ghorn, there are enough content for casual to catch up; they can make content aimed at top tier group and nerf it 2month ish after it's been introduced so people without harp/horn can catch up.

[Damane]

Hmmm why would you nerf rng and pld while it's optimal for only DM VD ? I was quite happy when r/e/m got nerfed but I fear it will never happen again. Every good group has harp/ghorn, there are enough content for casual to catch up; they can make content aimed at top tier group and nerf it 2month ish after it's been introduced so people without harp/horn can catch up.

becuase ochain/aegis/burtgang pld + relic rngs is the clutch people use when it seems to hard too attend it with a normal melee setup.

[ccl]

becuase ochain/aegis/burtgang pld + relic rngs is the clutch people use when it seems to hard too attend it with a normal melee setup.

Nothing is hard enough to require this strategy right now beside VD dm!

[Prothescar]

hard content doesn't have to be inaccessible to be hard, but I doubt there'd be many who don't -want- hard content as much as they don't want hard content that they have no chance of attempting due to some artificial lockout. the problem with balancing around R/M/E is thus: R/M/E weapons are meant to be the highest attainable echelon, the final carrot at the end of the treadmill. What rewards do you want from the content that requires them to be cleared? You realize that, in adding equipment on a similar level to R/M/E as rewards to R/M/E centric fights, you'd only be making the game even easier, i.e., going against the very goal you're looking towards?

If they add fights that require R/M/E then fine, but I wouldn't expect a new layer game altering depth and longevity out of it unless you don't plan on ever using the rewards from it.