Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Sechs]

Was playing WoW when they added that sorta stuff, and at first, I was psyched. Was part of a heroic 25 man guild that regularly got server first clears, so it was cool to get better stuff. But after an update or two of it, I hated it. It kills any and all desire to do content that wasn't of that tier. I know they've since made changes (though I don't keep up on what they are) but I really did despise the drop system ruling out other content.

Same story, and I kept playing WoW probably longer than you.
In all honesty I can't think of another system that would work in WoW's situation nowadays, it's kinda of a road that once you start walking in, you can't turn back. It's the same for LFR etc.
I see the pros of this system but in the end it was really boring doing the same bosses, the same raids, over and over again in different levels of difficulty.
Now you have LFR difficulty, Normal Difficulty, Heroic Difficulty and Mythic difficulty...
Yeah ok sometimes bosses are COMPLETELY different (rarely), but most of the times it's just the same guy with stronger stuff and more health.
It really burns you out, trust me, it so does.
I'm sure you can understand my words completely Malithar.

So yeah, I wish this doesn't happen at least in FFXI.



@JSH
Your sarcasm hurts me ;_;
But in all honesty back then it was still a wheel set in motion, it was something "new", it was like what, 1 month post launch? And Delve was originally planned to be available at launch. Also, they were still kinda experimenting with the ilevel stuff.
I'm sure they learned a lot from that experience.
Now the wheels have kinda "stopped", I may be wrong but doing a consistant ilevel increase without offering a wide array of content to the players would be a big mistake, and in all honesty I can't think of any other MMO that ever did the same.
If we compare ilevel to "level cap" (in theory it's the same) it would be like increasing the cap at the end of an expansion, before the new one comes out.
The thing they did with Delve 1.0 was something completely different, more like "ok level cap for this expansion is 119, but we had some issues so it's gonna stay at 113 for a month then we'll release 119". I've seen this happen, it does make sense over a short amount of time if it's for specific or technical reasons, no?

[ccl]

Same story, and I kept playing WoW probably longer than you.
In all honesty I can't think of another system that would work in WoW's situation nowadays, it's kinda of a road that once you start walking in, you can't turn back. It's the same for LFR etc.
I see the pros of this system but in the end it was really boring doing the same bosses, the same raids, over and over again in different levels of difficulty.
Now you have LFR difficulty, Normal Difficulty, Heroic Difficulty and Mythic difficulty...
Yeah ok sometimes bosses are COMPLETELY different (rarely), but most of the times it's just the same guy with stronger stuff and more health.
It really burns you out, trust me, it so does.
I'm sure you can understand my words completely Malithar.

So yeah, I wish this doesn't happen at least in FFXI.

FFXI is already like that, the only content we're getting atm is HM battlefield of lvl 75 stuff with crappy reward, I don't get how you guys can't be burned of it and still defend what SE is doing with the game atm saying it favor casual, fuck even Draylo who always defend this game doesn't agree with you all.

[Sechs]

I'm not defending the current state of the game. If anything I'm defending the philosophy behind it.
This game clearly needs something else and something, much more than the borign reiteration of lowmen content we've been getting over the last year.
I just don't think that trying to copycat WoW's model would actually work into FFXI. Imho it would bring more consequences than positive stuff.

[arus2001]

You guys say that they should cater to "casual" otherwise casual will leave if they are excluded from content on release, this is wrong on so many lvl: I was able to sell delve II win for 20m+ for a month(wich is the standard time between update now) wich mean most people wasn't able to clear it for at least a month and no one did quit over that; on the other hand I know a lot of hardcore that are quitting/taking long break cause since delve 2; there was nothing that is either fun/challenging to do or there was no good reward.

I'd ask how many merc runs you sold, but I'm not inclined to believe that final number because you could easily bloat it to try and prove a point. Rather, casual players sitting on 20+ mil or making it in any kind of a timely manner is far less likely when you consider they're probably not running Dynamis and Salvage daily to bazaar currency, nor are they fish botting and running multiple accounts to make everything easier. What's more likely is your customers were a mix of those sitting on old money or having lost their friends over time to the pertinent logistics issues of alliance content. Overall, I don't really have an issue with people selling merc runs. What is problematic, however, is claiming the system is okay because some people are.

[ccl]

It is not ok, delve II should have been nerfed already(it did kinda since fudo buff) and we should have gotten the next tier of hard content with worthy reward; but we didn't get anything.

[Staesse]

My point is valid, I can do everything in adoulin with pug and tsurumaru.


edit: Yeah I can see the issue with adding drop to VD only but then there shouldn't be HQ ring cause casual can't get them, that exclude them from having them.

I would consider myself a "casual" player. I can only play games for 1-2 hours a night for RL things. So I have to make that choice of enjoying the game actual doing things or burning salvage / dyna as the only things I can do for the day. Yet I still have RNG relic and a handful of the support jobs that don't require an empy / relic in order to get into a party which gets me into VD content. I did Delve I at release and got all of the wins by asking an Elite Linkshell if I could fight with then and upon examining my gear let me for free.

I don't know any casual player that could have dropped 50m on a NNI win a couple years back and I know those same casual players still cannot spend 20m on a delve win today. At least the people I used to know could not.

[FaeQueenCory]

The whole ilvl system is going to become silly again if they increase though. Are we going to have to reforged +2 all of our AF and Relic as well? And further more, what are their plans as far as having a wide array of content to go into at 129 or whatever it is? Or are we going to have a situation all to similar to early SoA where some jobs had 119 weapons, some had 119 gear in certain slots, and some went without any relevant ilvl gear until Yorcia Skirmish?

It will be even worse than last time... Because back then 119 was pretty lackluster by today's standards... Hell, even the revamped delve 1 119 gear is pretty "meh" with comparative 119s... Hell, now that +30 is something that is normal for 117 and even 115 with an augment... The 20/25 statline on Delve1 gear needs a bit of a boost... If only just to make it more 119-y.
As to why I say it will be worse than then is because back then iLv was really gimp because of a lack of statvomit.
This led to the, then correct, assessment that Ochain would be ~iLv150.
With the fake skill addition and then the statvomit... Anyone without an Ochain quickly realized how much bullshit "Ochain is 150" really is. The final nail in the coffin is Priwen.
And seeing as they seem to deem Ochain and Aegis is "just fine"... ANY >119 shield will suddenly start to easily outperform Ochain... This is all due to the restructuring of how iLvs work such that Ochain now equals 119.
I can see them keeping the other REMs up in iLvs...
And Matsui has also said that the vision for RF gear is to always have it upgradeable. (A return to 75era gearing paradigms but with 3 sets of AF to mix and match as a base rather than 2.)
But I'm fairly confident that should they increase the "level cap" to be greater than 119.... They won't give Ochain and Aegis an iLv. (Sorry BRDs, while I agree y'all should get a special song on Durabluh and Gjallarhorn at 99... I don't see any benefit from iLv instruments... Especially now that no instrument has iLvs.)

As for my feelings in general: please no.
Ain't nobody got time for this shit all over again.
Now, >119 weapons? Sure... I don't really mind that so long as REMs get the update too.
But >119 shields and armor? No thank you.
It will kill WKRs. (Which are already dead on Odin, but w/e... But many of those pieces wind up being the best WS pieces in the game at the moment....)
It will hamper Delve, which in turn will increase relic upgrades "difficulty". (I'm namely thinking about people who start today, what about the future!?)
And it will kill Ochain. (I'm all for functional alternatives, ala Priwen or the 99era's Adamas, but pure 100% turn Ochain into shit? No.)

[Byrthnoth]

Double Linkshell is a cool idea. Social channel and SUPER HARDCORE EVENT CHANNEL.

[sapphire]

Double Linkshell is a cool idea. Social channel and SUPER HARDCORE EVENT CHANNEL.

Would have been nice yesterday when I had a returner show up because he HAD TO GET MUMOR TRUST, just as the night's events started on other shell. Oh the guilt!

[Damane]

My point is valid, I can do everything in adoulin with pug and tsurumaru.


edit: Yeah I can see the issue with adding drop to VD only but then there shouldn't be HQ ring cause casual can't get them, that exclude them from having them.

i want to see that pug donig 1-5 NM on kamihr delve.
well the damage was allready done with delve 1 (thats when most left for 14) so might as well go full retard on hard content

[ccl]

i want to see that pug donig 1-5 NM on kamihr delve.
well the damage was allready done with delve 1 (thats when most left for 14) so might as well go full retard on hard content

People didn't leave because of delve I, they left because their r/e/m became useless/bad(and also some just wanted a new mmo).

edit: oh and also a lot did quit cause there was no content added after delve I when we cleared it.

[Isiolia]

People didn't leave because of delve I, they left because their r/e/m became useless/bad(and also some just wanted a new mmo).

edit: oh and also a lot did quit cause there was no content added after delve I when we cleared it.

Depends on who you're looking at. Basically everyone still playing in my LS quit during that time because the game went from being able to do stuff as a small group (all we had) to alliance/pick up alliance only for meaningful progress. I would say they lost a lot of middle-tier players for similar reasons. Not because things were too hard per se, but because they were not approachable in way that people enjoyed (though, obviously, most would be now).

[Viar]

I would consider myself a "casual" player. I can only play games for 1-2 hours a night for RL things.

Playing 1~2hr a night doesn't make you casual though, real casual player play far less than that.

[Draylo]

Why bOther playing an mmo at that point.

[Damane]

Why bOther playing an mmo at that point.

^ thats a valid point tbh

[NynJa]

If youre gonna play a MMO for 3 hours a week, I dont even see the point in playing. Theres no way you're getting anything done.

[Viar]

hard content doesn't have to be inaccessible to be hard, but I doubt there'd be many who don't -want- hard content as much as they don't want hard content that they have no chance of attempting due to some artificial lockout. the problem with balancing around R/M/E is thus: R/M/E weapons are meant to be the highest attainable echelon, the final carrot at the end of the treadmill. What rewards do you want from the content that requires them to be cleared? You realize that, in adding equipment on a similar level to R/M/E as rewards to R/M/E centric fights, you'd only be making the game even easier, i.e., going against the very goal you're looking towards?

If they add fights that require R/M/E then fine, but I wouldn't expect a new layer game altering depth and longevity out of it unless you don't plan on ever using the rewards from it.

This shouldn't be an issue in FFXI because of job change. You may be able to clear the content with the most optimal setup/job/weapon, but you can use the reward for other jobs. Having R/M/E makes it faster to farm.

[ccl]

If youre gonna play a MMO for 3 hours a week, I dont even see the point in playing. Theres no way you're getting anything done.

Since people on here say we shouldn't have content aimed at player with harp brd and stuff, why shouldn't all content be aimed at player that can only play 3h a week ? Since we want to cater to casual might as well not release content people that can only play 1-2h a week couldn't clear

[Hitou]

Since people on here say we shouldn't have content aimed at player with harp brd and stuff, why shouldn't all content be aimed at player that can only play 3h a week ? Since we want to cater to casual might as well not release content people that can only play 1-2h a week couldn't clear

RoE is content in mind for people that don't have a lot of play time. I really doubt the whole game will be diluted to this. You kinda keep going back and forth with what you really want. "Delve I was perfect > people you know quit anyway. Everything in this game is a joke > some VD are harder than others. I can sell Delve II clears > it should be nerfed. I wish SAM got the HP boost > nerf fudo." This is paraphrasing of course.

Maybe you could define what it is you really want and how the devs are failing you in this regard instead of whining there's no hard content and casual this casual that.

[dasva]

If youre gonna play a MMO for 3 hours a week, I dont even see the point in playing. Theres no way you're getting anything done.

You can get some stuff done but you pretty much would have to use some kind of farm bot since that amount of time is barely enough to keep up with getting requirements/consumables just to do content these days. I mean just getting merits for high tier battlefields or the gil to get the crafting items to upgrade could take you all week otherwise and not leave time for the actual content