Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Prothescar]

Re: Using Job Points as their way to adjust jobs


Lol. Goes against the whole "we don't want them to be required, we want them to be bonuses for dedicated players of that job" doesn't it? Yeah.

[Malithar]

So are there people out there that actually think the JP/CP thing is a good addition to the game? Really?????????? I think its the dumbest idea ever and they should of just made a 3rd category of merit points. Way to make shit more complicated, grindy, and boring as ever, SE. Bravo.

Its a long haul type of system, both in execution and it's benefits. As has been pointed out multiple times, the categories will be increased to 30 eventually, and Byrth determined from it's file that (I think?) there's room for 24 total categories per job. Just as well, mob level level is the sole determination as to the base CP rewarded from the kill. We also know that at some point, they plan on pushing past ilvl 119, to what though, who's to say. ilvl 124, 129, higher, etc. Regardless of what it ends up as, there will be higher level mobs, which reward more CP.

If you take a "gotta have it now!" view of it, yeah, it's pretty terrible. But you can make decent strides in it by just meriting in Dho/Woh gates with your BC parties. You won't cap in a short time, but that's not really it's purpose IMO. If they wanted it to be easier to cap, they'd make adjustments to do so, now. Instead they're letting it ride out, those who want it NOW can get it. Those who'd rather QQ bout it, that's too bad.

It's inevitable that there'd be some categories that are job fixes in the sense of adding something they desperately need. But gotta agree that some like Blu's points and pet's acc are prolly a little too much on the "I need that" side.

[Julian]

Just because the initial design allows for up to 30, doesn't mean that will be 100% part of their final design. Stuff can change.

[Byrthnoth]

They repeated again today that it would go up to 30 at some point.

[geno3302]

Avatar: All stats + 90, BP dmg +30%, ATT+60, ACC+30, M.ACC+30
Yes, Please.

[Draylo]

It's the same thing as meriting in the old days, except it takes longer. People complained that partying is dead in this game for exp, then they complain when SE adds something for parties to do together in exp style. Can't ever please people with this game, just let them finish it and slowly works towards it. They will be making it easier to get down the road.

[Prothescar]

That argument always annoys me. It took significantly fewer merit points to cap out each category, not to mention you could use any job you wanted to accrue those points and spend them wherever you pleased, whether it be on categories that affected all of your jobs or ones that affected jobs that weren't as sought after for xp. The two systems can't be compared. The problem isn't how to get them anyway, it's that some jobs find it much more difficult to get into parties while simultaneously requiring the JPs to reach their maximum effectiveness; the method of gaining JPs is only an issue due to being an extension of this.

"Well blah blah make your own party blah" yeah ok, cause I don't have anything better to do than shout for hours waiting for other people to want to xp. Fact of the matter is, if they want to make points so powerful that the job is gimped by not having them, then they can't have them take so many hours to get or need to make it so that the system is more inclusive. There's still no reaosn that high tier battlefields (aside from delve+skirmish) don't give CP. Luckily I have a secondary account, so capping important categories wasn't as hard. Other people aren't so fortunate, they're either stuck with a trickle of CP or forced to bot for days.

It started out as not being worth the effort because there wasn't enough worthwhile to put in the effort, but now there's been a complete 180, and it's become necessary to do it for some jobs rather than some middle ground of effort:reward.

[Ophannus]

Especially BLU since they mentioned newer spells will have higher set costs and the only way to fit them in will be to either sacrifice current spells that you set or go get job points. Many of the job points have huge potential but it will tale a lottttttt of grinding for most players to ever see any impact. Literally grinding for 5-10hours for a +1% is pretty retarded. At least each merit upgrade was a moderate boon. Even at 75 it still took a few weeks to cap out your first job(HP/MP/STR/DEX/Combat Skills/Others/Job specific group1&2) granted some people capped faster because they had ghorn brd and ridill war friends but most of us took longer, especially because people only meritted in like 4 camps and 3 of those camps were terrible.(Halvung trolls, mamool staging pt, caedarva mire were all terrible compared to birds).

[Bukadan]

well if you want to be the best, you need to go out there and prove it. complaining about or boycotting certain events or things like skirmish augmenting with the excuse of "its not worth it" shows a lack of caring for efficiency. you dont have to like it but if youre looking to distinguish yourself among other players as preferable in a pool of players (you know, be the kind of player people /t whenever you log on to do something instead of waiting to joining shouts) there are things you need to do to maintain yourself. this is not to say JP's are 100% necessary in that regard, but it is something that definitely shows initiative. when it comes down to it, the player that actually proves themselves through skill (like damane said, considering the usefulness of abilities such as misery and esuna, or even solace -> sacrifice -> misery -> esuna) have more worth in battles in general, never mind when they first come out/are still hard/ect.

if you ever find yourself in the position of being less desirable than another, there are steps you can take to advance your position. a good example of less than mediocre player tactics is the swapping of bards/cors. an above average player would be more than willing (often suggesting) to change parties to give parties more buffs. (this is of course more relevent back in the days of 18 man delve, so this is more of a reference/example) bad players will say "i will not change parties" becuase they arent willing to play the job the way that the party wants them to. and if someone sucks terribly at it, it inhibits the ability of the good players to change parties because you know, you just KNOW that that one bard/cor is terrible at it and would actually make things more difficult. failing at these types of things is fixable as long as youre willing to get better at them in your own time. if you arent willing to make adjustments to your play style and often find yourself being asked why you dont/do do something, its a call for a self evaluation.

[Prothescar]

grinding for hours really doesn't show any real level of skill or helps to prove how capable a player is, all it really tells anyone is that they had the time and were lucky enough to find the people to go out and xp. I don't ride my JPs around like a badge of "invite me I'm the best" because honestly, they are not indicative of individual skill or prowess. I did them because it was necessity. that's the problem. for a job like blu, passing up 10 extra set points and, now, extra accuracy for additional effects is basically saying "well I don't want to be good anyway".

[Bukadan]

this is not to say JP's are 100% necessary in that regard, but it is something that definitely shows initiative.

the grinding of them wasnt the point, it was the initiative it showed when combined with other things. its not about luck either. if your group of friends was into spamming revamped battlefields to cap on equipment then you farmed a decent amount in between each set of runs. if you are a mediocre player then youll find yourself unable to accumulate these efficiently. which goes back to my original point of people putting themselves in the position to succeed, rather than complain about the ladder in which to do so.

[Hitou]

Holy crap are you really using something like grinding JP which are 90% useless for most jobs as a measurement for success? Succeeding at what, wasting a lot of time? The system is flawed, if it was like merits and you could grind them on any job and didn't have to wasted tons of EXP and sparks in the process to actually get a decent amount, then sure it'd be fine. But really I don't think anyone is gonna be bringing a PUP to a JP party since it's apparently a mark of the elite. Not that PUP has any useful JP anyway.

[Bukadan]

this is not to say JP's are 100% necessary in that regard, but it is something that definitely shows initiative.

the grinding of them wasnt the point, it was the initiative it showed when combined with other things. its not about luck either. if your group of friends was into spamming revamped battlefields to cap on equipment then you farmed a decent amount in between each set of runs. if you are a mediocre player then youll find yourself unable to accumulate these efficiently. which goes back to my original point of people putting themselves in the position to succeed, rather than complain about the ladder in which to do so.

rereadwhat i said

[Sechs]

So are there people out there that actually think the JP/CP thing is a good addition to the game? Really?????????? I think its the dumbest idea ever and they should of just made a 3rd category of merit points. Way to make shit more complicated, grindy, and boring as ever, SE. Bravo.

Huh? Not sure I get what you mean.
JP as an idea, a concept, is a really nice addition.
If they went the Merit Points way people would have been capped out in 2 weeks with the current XP rates and mobs giving 4k XP per kill or something like that.

They wanted to create something with a long term goal to keep player busy for a longer time.
It's fine. It's just that their concept of "long" and the "effort:reward" ratios are a bit off, just that.
The fact that you have to be on the job to gain JPs has pros and cons, but in itself it's something "new" at least.

And also the fact they seem to be having not very clear ideas about what type of content it is. Casual? Hardcore? Something you do as main goal? Something you get as side effect of doing other stuff? Something necessary? Something compulsory? Something to "fix" job problems? Yes, they're definitely confused. Or at least they seem to be from the way they've been handling the topic on their public communications about it.

[Sechs]

Just because the initial design allows for up to 30, doesn't mean that will be 100% part of their final design. Stuff can change.

Of all the things that can change I think that specific one is the least likely to, since it's one of the few (the only one?) that they keep on mentioning in their posts.
So yeah, a lot of things might and will change but I doubt the 30max cap will.

It's the same thing as meriting in the old days, except it takes longer. People complained that partying is dead in this game for exp, then they complain when SE adds something for parties to do together in exp style. Can't ever please people with this game, just let them finish it and slowly works towards it. They will be making it easier to get down the road.

You got a point. I kinda missed Merit Points style parties and I welcomed JPs with open arms but something clearly didn't work somewhere along the way.
Wether it's the Dev's fault or the player base fault I don't know, might be both, but the result atm is pretty clear and we can't deny it. MP party style hasn't come back yet.
I can see it every time I struggle for hours, full days, even during double CP rates, to find people willing to join, and the few times when I do I either get tells from lame jobs or DDs who have 750 acc in their "acc sets".

99% of the times it's people soloing or people being afk with a friends and some mules.
Not launching moral judgements (I'm at fault myself after all), just describing what I see around me.

and didn't have to wasted tons of EXP and sparks in the process

Yeah please let's talk about this, a lot of people seem to ignore this aspect.
Call me an OCD but it makes me feel really bad that to have decent rates I have to ignore the fact I'm 50k Sparks/45merits capped and keep doing CPs.
Either that or I have to constantly go back to town to reset, wasting precious time, lowering the CP/hr rate and blah blah.
It's really annoying that there's such a huge difference in the gain ratios.

[Bukadan]

mage cp parties can get up to 5-6 in 1h iirc. (from what i hear) any truth to this? (jp sources are terrible at elaborating)

[Damane]

majority of the people are used to afk/easy mode abyssea exp. the times where you are glued for 3hours on your seat are over. and frankly i myself cant sit constantly on the pc. there is a phone call, someones at the door, surprise visit from friends, bathroom, makeing food etc. my longest cp session lasted 2hours but god it felt boreing as shit.

there are ways to fix this:
- new voidwatch esque fights that reward cp and sparks (5-10k cp & 1-2k sparks) instead of exp and cruor
- the addition of cp rewards for HM battlefields
- doubling the amount of cp gained
- new abyssea toau addon that gives cp

[Sechs]

majority of the people are used to afk/easy mode abyssea exp.

I agree this is a big source of the problem. There are 2 main sources and they are intertwined
1) People are used to Abyssea easy mode
2) Game has changed a lot

I feel the first is the one with highest relevance.
But now that we agreed on this, who do we point our finger against? How do we "address" this issue?
Do we blame the players who lazily got used to these easy-mode standards? Or do we blame SE who implemented this and kept it going for over 2 years without doing anything?
This is a videogame, it's not a school. Devs are not supposed to be teachers educating players doing this or that.
We are customers.

Once they pass the taboo threshold and start giving us a Ferrari for 2 years, of course nobody will want to ride a Fiat 500 after that. Can we really blame people for that? A bit, maybe, but certainly they're not the only ones at fault.
It's too late to revert things now, every attempt in doing so is going to fail.
The best they can aim for is small tweaks, a very fast car that's not a Ferrari might be accepted by players in the end, but certainly not a 500.


Getting out from metaphors and going back into practical stuff.
I like the fact they are trying to make MP style pts useful and sought after again.
Their attempts so far didn't work, fact.
What they should do now is change their strategies. Small tweaks here, small tweaks there, and continue to pursue the goal (making those pts relevant) with slightly different means.
Stubbornly keeping to do the same thing, even after you saw it's not working, is not going to change anything.
They cannot give up to Players request too easily, but they need to avoid being too stubborn too. Need to find a good balance between these 2 extremes.

[Julian]

Huh? Not sure I get what you mean.
JP as an idea, a concept, is a really nice addition.
If they went the Merit Points way people would have been capped out in 2 weeks with the current XP rates and mobs giving 4k XP per kill or something like that.

They wanted to create something with a long term goal to keep player busy for a longer time.
It's fine. It's just that their concept of "long" and the "effort:reward" ratios are a bit off, just that.
The fact that you have to be on the job to gain JPs has pros and cons, but in itself it's something "new" at least.

And also the fact they seem to be having not very clear ideas about what type of content it is. Casual? Hardcore? Something you do as main goal? Something you get as side effect of doing other stuff? Something necessary? Something compulsory? Something to "fix" job problems? Yes, they're definitely confused. Or at least they seem to be from the way they've been handling the topic on their public communications about it.

Just wanted to echo on this -

I also like the idea of JP being something incredibly long term. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the biggest issue with this system is that you only get cp from doing very few specific newer events, or you go out and "merit" for the sole purpose of earning JP - which is completely against the initial idea. (Well, assuming the idea is "job gets slightly stronger over time the more you use it", which is what I initially understood it as, obviously you CAN go out for the sole purpose of "playing to get stronger", but it is incredibly fucked up that that's the only real way to get cp right now.)

They really need to add cp to literally everything in the game. I'm not saying everything needs to be the same rate, but people need to feel some sort of progress whenever they play a job, even if minimal.

[Sechs]

which is what I initially understood it as

It's not what YOU understood. It's what they kept saying since the beginning.
But there is a clear discrepancy between what they say and reality.
I'm not even sure if they're aware of this huge difference, if it's a matter of bad public relationships, bad translations, bad posts... if they're trying to convince us it's like that so that they can convince themselves in return. I don't know, but it's not what it is at the moment.

They keep talking about it like it was some small not necessary thing to add flavour to jobs the more you play it.
But then they add some JPs which are too good to be skipped, some who will become like that once the cap is 30.
They keep saying "you can gain JPs at your pace doing a variety of activities" hinting JPs would just eventually come at you as you're doing other things, but then the effort:reward ratio is so obnoxious than that's not really the case, and they've been playing so conservative with their exceptions (scared of people capping stuff too early?) that there is no variety at all.
The only slightly remotely "efficient" way to get JPs atm is focusing on them with Solo/Group merit style, and spending quite a load of time doing that.

Thre is no variety of content/activities, there is no CP coming at you as you're doing something else, realistically.
They keep mentioning RoEs when RoEs give like waht, 100 CP per completed trial? When you can get 150+ from a single mob kill?

I mean... everything it's completely off balance.
I don't know if they have a plan in their mind, clear ideas or not, but they certainly do give the impression of being very very very confused about this all and in which direction they really want to steer it.