Dev Tracker: Discussion

[FaeQueenCory]

Why are people thinking that Atomos isn't limited to Astral Flow?

Atomos has no additional blood pacts usable during Astral Flow.

Seems that "additional" would imply that the single-shot-buff-drain is a 2hr...

Idr the vid... But I think we'd have called attention to the lack of AF with Him back when that vid was new...
At best, He won't consume AF...
But it's highly likely that he's SMN's version of Larceny... The only benefit that I can see is that he spreads the buff to the whole PT...

[dasva]

Are there any damage-boosting JAs based on stats other than SA/TA? Not sure it's a good example of a paradygm they have to comply to.

2/2 is still something. You can make an argument for CA/BA that as well. Plus if you are going to get into something as specific as only damage boosting jas then well then there is no need for the base stat qualifier since the Nether Void exception wouldn't fall under that which would broaden things some. Regardless don't count on it begin before

[Sechs]

Well when you get that specific yeah it's going to be pretty hard to find examples

Lol I wasn't trying to argue that black is white xD
Just saying that it *could* happen hey!

[Fwahm]

Can they? I've never seen osmosis buff absorb miss if the mob doesn't have an unstealable buff like erratic flutter.

They can.

[Kincard]

THF is to DNC as RDM is to BLU. Basically two similar jobs where there's probably some past grudge (soloing and TH) lobbied upon them by SE where future equivalents get added just seemingly to spite them and their requests for improvements. Of course, none are SAM, so in the end they don't matter~

You can add probably NIN to those two. There's a reason most MMOs stick to just having one rogue type job. In concept they did try to differentiate them, but they're implemented so poorly. My understanding of it is:
THF: Backstabs, steals, and finding treasure, basically the "classic" rogue archetype
NIN: Hybrid class serving as a tank, DPS of multiple types (melee, ranged and magic) and limited debuffing ability on top
DNC: Hybrid class serving as a healer, melee DPS and debuffer
It's obvious that out of these THF is the least versatile so logically you would balance it so that THF is the strongest DPS. NIN and DNC are both hybrid classes.
DNC's healing abilities are great for solo and small groups but could still use some help IMO, and they've been working on the debuff thing but JAspam screws things up as usual.
NIN is usually awful as a tank and probably has the worst damage of the three (and only their melee skill is usable, Daken might help with the ranged thing though). Their debuffs are okay, but some more variety would be appreciated.

[Damane]

You can add probably NIN to those two. There's a reason most MMOs stick to just having one rogue type job. In concept they did try to differentiate them, but they're implemented so poorly. My understanding of it is:
THF: Backstabs, steals, and finding treasure, basically the "classic" rogue archetype
NIN: Hybrid class serving as a tank, DPS of multiple types (melee, ranged and magic) and limited debuffing ability on top
DNC: Hybrid class serving as a healer, melee DPS and debuffer
It's obvious that out of these THF is the least versatile so logically you would balance it so that THF is the strongest DPS. NIN and DNC are both hybrid classes.
DNC's healing abilities are great for solo and small groups but could still use some help IMO, and they've been working on the debuff thing but JAspam screws things up as usual.
NIN is usually awful as a tank and probably has the worst damage of the three (and only their melee skill is usable, Daken might help with the ranged thing though). Their debuffs are okay, but some more variety would be appreciated.

well NIN wasnt originally intended/envisioned by SE as a tank but rather as a hybrid nuker/DD/debuffer. In any case, there will never be full balance between jobs as long as SE refuses to change/fix things like JA delay and magic aftercast delay, which plague 50% of the jobs extensivly (sch blm run dnc pup geo rdm thf) those are the ones that suffer the most in their dmg due to JA delay/magic aftercast delay, but there are more. basicly every job suffers, some alot some to a much lesser degree.

I'd rather see them investing time into removeing JA and magic delay then pumping out every month new job adjustments for flavour of the month job that becomes OP.

[Kincard]

It's not just that they arn't balanced, that's very difficult to do, but it's that they can't even effectively perform the roles they were intended to have. THF isn't a good DPS even amongst the rogue-like classes and most NINs only ever cast Utsusemi and Migawari. DNC is a bit more successful with the whole hybrid thing, at least steps and flourishes are useful sometimes.

I'm pretty sure at this point they could just make sneak attack a trait that applies to the first hit of every turn and THF would still be meh.

[Priran]

And ChiBlast by MND, but those are directdamage JAs, I was talking about damage-boosting ones, i.e. JAs that give you a buff when used. (like SA, TA and the DNC flourishes)

With job points, Counterstance is modified by DEX... somehow. Counterstance is terrible so as far as I know nobody has bothered testing it.

[Ophannus]

Atomos, from watching the dev video seemed to be a summon( long cast) and the buff didnt affect non party members. Granted they were t in an alliance but for a spell to hit across alliances it has to be targetable to all, unless they created atomos specifically to ale to alliance but not nearby non-pt member pc's( would be the first spell to do that, and they stated it couldnt be done years ago without a lot of recoding)

[Karbuncle]

Why are people thinking that Atomos isn't limited to Astral Flow?

Seems that "additional" would imply that the single-shot-buff-drain is a 2hr...

Idr the vid... But I think we'd have called attention to the lack of AF with Him back when that vid was new...
At best, He won't consume AF...
But it's highly likely that he's SMN's version of Larceny... The only benefit that I can see is that he spreads the buff to the whole PT...

When Odin/Alexader were released it was specifically mentioned they could only be used under the effects of Astral Flow, and in the Vana'diel video whatever that showed Atomos, I don't believe Astral flow was used. Plus, stating no additional BPs during AF if it was an AF only mobs is redundant. At this point, theres little reason to believes he is an Astral Flow only command except a 2-3 or more year old dev response stating he would be... and how many 2-3 year old dev responses have been completely canned or re visioned?

Like all of em.

So I'm going with it being just a summonable avatar that acts like Odin/Alex (Summon > move > Releases) but not tied to our 2hour. If it is tied to Astral Flow is seems ridiculously gimp and underwhelming unless it can steal SP's (and it doesn't mention SP's, which again, Larceny specifically mentioned)

[Tarage]

Uh guys? I have no idea why you think Atomos having a 1 minute recast means he isn't an Astral Flow avatar. Alexander and Odin also have a 1 minute recast time. He's an astral flow avatar, SE just worded it retardedly, per usual.

IE he's useless.

[Sechs]

So I'm going with it being just a summonable avatar that acts like Odin/Alex (Summon > move > Releases) but not tied to our 2hour.

I agree, but are we sure this is going to be the best for us, the players?
If it were a special 1hr ability there would have been more chances of it being cool and have some niche use.
If it's a 1min cooldown but it never fucking sticks/works on anything where it would matter then Atomos will become completely useless, whereas with the 1hr route it could have had some moderate utility (like most other 1hr abilities)

So really, not sure the 1min news, even if proved true, is going to be good stuff for us in the end =/

[Karbuncle]

Uh guys? I have no idea why you think Atomos having a 1 minute recast means he isn't an Astral Flow avatar. Alexander and Odin also have a 1 minute recast time. He's an astral flow avatar, SE just worded it retardedly, per usual.

IE he's useless.

We're not basing it off the recast timer.

I agree, but are we sure this is going to be the best for us, the players?
If it were a special 1hr ability there would have been more chances of it being cool and have some niche use.
If it's a 1min cooldown but it never fucking sticks/works on anything where it would matter then Atomos will become completely useless, whereas with the 1hr route it could have had some moderate utility (like most other 1hr abilities)

So really, not sure the 1min news, even if proved true, is going to be good stuff for us in the end =/

With any new thing it can be spectacularly awful or niche useful. What this will be only time will tell.

[Tarage]

I sincerely doubt that it is not tied to the 1hr ability. I'll be glad to be wrong, but given SE's track record of making horrible 1hr abilities for SMN(The still-stuck-at-75-AFs, Odin's hilarious accuracy, Alex's 'I once was good, but now...'), I'm going to assume disappointment here.

If I'm wrong and you're right, we both get to be happy. If I'm right and you're wrong, at least I won't be disappointed.

[Karbuncle]

Fair enough.

Also I dug up the original March 23rd 2010 Update notes for Odin/Alex. Says you need to be level 75 to summon them, and in the next bullet point it mentioned Astral Flow now being useable without an Avatar out because of Alex/Odin.

Getting that strange sensation of "Why did it take them 3-4 years to give us shit again?"

[Tarage]

That sensation goes away for you?

[FaeQueenCory]

well NIN wasnt originally intended/envisioned by SE as a tank but rather as a hybrid nuker/DD/debuffer. In any case, there will never be full balance between jobs as long as SE refuses to change/fix things like JA delay and magic aftercast delay, which plague 50% of the jobs extensivly (sch blm run dnc pup geo rdm thf) those are the ones that suffer the most in their dmg due to JA delay/magic aftercast delay, but there are more. basicly every job suffers, some alot some to a much lesser degree.

I'd rather see them investing time into removeing JA and magic delay then pumping out every month new job adjustments for flavour of the month job that becomes OP.

Yeah.... The history of NIN is a funny one... Cause it's not the first time SE decided a job would do A when A is BEYOND stupid... and players did B like it was clear the job performed as. (another example would be, ironically "from" the same expansion: SMN. SE say: poop an avatar, BP, release. Players realized that that was stupid. And another would be PUP. SE say: send in your Automaton like SMNs use their avatars and sit back and /whm. Players realized that was stupid and acted like crappy MNKs with a funny NPC helper.)
Man... it wasn't until Abyssea and the empy set for NIN where SE finally relented and said "ok! fine! NIN is a tank!".... lol

But the JA lag/delay BS is gonna be forever... at least... they haven't recanted "people play on dial-up excuse"... so..............
"whatever it's 2014" comes to mind when I remember that THAT was/is their reason for keeping the 3s block on the game. (iirc it's 3s.)
So I don't think they'll ever get rid of it.... even though I don't think it's possible to actually HAVE dial-up anymore.... >_>

Fair enough.

Also I dug up the original March 23rd 2010 Update notes for Odin/Alex. Says you need to be level 75 to summon them, and in the next bullet point it mentioned Astral Flow now being useable without an Avatar out because of Alex/Odin.

Getting that strange sensation of "Why did it take them 3-4 years to give us shit again?"

Also what Tarage said about "I'd rather be pleasantly surprised instead of disappointed."
As for your sensation.... It's cause you forgot what Cait Sith looks like. 3~4yrs for a BP that's basically worthless (lv? Holy), RR2, and a TP reset (Mewling Lullaby).
And NO >lv75 BPs...
Is it any wonder that Atomos being crap is suspect when Cait Sith never got the 76+ level update... and She came about in a "99+" era.

[Byrthnoth]

Jumps are modded by VIT.

Also, as far as the DNC update goes, its magnificent for DNCs and I can say I'm happy for them, but at this point if we compare DNC and THF it now looks something like this.

DNC:
Self Cures
Tanking Stance.
DD Stance.
10% JA Haste
Dual Wield 4
Higher accuracy by a good margin (they have Acc Bonus traits remember? SE Gave it to them to compensate for lower skill? well, guess fuck that)
Higher Dmg potential (and not that much more higher)
DEF- Debuff
Crit Evasion Debuff
(Cons: JA Delay)

THF:
Treasure Hunter.

I know its still not likely DNC will be invited to anything... But I mean, comparing those two jobs side by side THF is now just shit tier, even worse. I know if a THF is literally topest tier and has the best gear available in the entire game and performs everything flawless within miliseconds they can almost be a good DD compared to a 1 armed PUP, but yah, not good enough, and I know DNC is in the same boat with all the JA Delays. I think SE feels that because a lot of people have THF leveled (consensus) that must mean its a good job... what they don't realize is that probably 50% or more of those THFs are just mules hauled around to hit something and then afk. THF is an aborted failure of a job, and I don't think SE knows where to go with it.

Yes I'm mad... Its always been my favorite job through all its useless phases, just pains me to see it repeatedly thrown aside in every imaginable way.

Percentage of events I've organized in the last few months where I've brought DNC: 0%
Percentage of events I've organized in the last few months where I've brought THF: 90-100%?

Your Q.Q goes unwarranted.

[Karbuncle]

Percentage of events I've organized in the last few months where I've brought DNC: 0%
Percentage of events I've organized in the last few months where I've brought THF: 90-100%?

Your Q.Q goes unwarranted.

Uhuh... but you see!

I know its still not likely DNC will be invited to anything...

Edit: Anyway, yah, I know DNC still doesn't get invited. But frankly, the logic of THF having TH = it being a good job escapes me. Its unremarkable in every way and its the only job that can have its role in the party satisfied to its fullest extent with 3 pieces of armor equipped to someones mule.

and hey, you love DNC and in many ways are as disappointed by its direction or lack there of that I am in THF, can't I love a job too.

[Trumpy]

I think if atomos is a cast ever 60 second avatar that it would be totally annoying castin him, let him do his thang, then cast regular dd/buff avatar, do its thing for 15 seconds, dismiss, atomos, do his thing ect ect... UNLESS! you can cast him with another avatar out (i doubt). Well im gonna go with 1 hour ability for now but I will still be hopeful it goes the other way (way to word things weird SE!).