Dev Tracker: Discussion

[NynJa]

Percentage of events I've organized in the last few months where I've brought THF: 90-100%?

How much of that was cause they have TH? And if it was an alliance event, how many times were they the 7th man out?

[Prothescar]

what he's saying is it's still more useful even despite that fact

[Treize Kordero]

what he's saying is it's still more useful even despite that fact

^ This

I'm a fan of both THF and DNC. THF being the first job I levelled to 75. I don't know what could be done with THF to fix it to compete with other DDs. I was thinking since DNC has acc bonus give THF either acc bonus as well or maybe even attack bonus? Help boost it's DPS. That would be a start.

Maybe reduce mug from 5mins to 2mins for that healing ability.

Just to start. I'm sure there's more comprehensive ways to make it a more loved DD.

Side note: SE can you give RDM A+ sword skill too?

[Sechs]

Side note: SE can you give RDM A+ sword skill too?

No.
RDM already has Stymie. Also giving them A+ Sword skill would be too overpowered and break the servers.

[Byrthnoth]

Version Update will be October 7th 1-3AM EST.


Also, just to be clear, I was saying that Thief is the job with more utility. Dancer can do more things, but no one wants it for a party.

[Sechs]

Seeing how now it's pretty clear than each additional Sange merits is going to give +25 Racc to Daken during Sange, I'm starting to feel seriously concerned about these new things being added to Ninja.
Too many questions and not enough answers of course, so it's too early to let the hammer of judgment fall on Daken/Sange, but there's enough space to feel at least concerned.

SE mentioned Daken will use Throwing Skill, but that's not the only thing it will rely on to calculate the accuracy of Daken procs. Their goal is to make so Daken accuracy is more or less the same as melee hits.
Link
Now the first question is: how do they plan to do it? CAN they do it? Because the pessimist in me gets a feeling there won't be any additional modifier but it will just be Racc+Throwing skill (plus the one we get from the ilevel Shuriken)
The answer to this question is going to be very important.
IF there won't be any modifier or of the modifier won't be satisfying enough, Ninja is going to be left into a very bad and sour spot when it comes to TP gear paradygms, which is already more complicated than other jobs due to how many different sets you need according to the different amount/potency of currently active haste buffs.

Basically Ninjas will have to look with different eyes gear that also have Racc/Ratt on them. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, could add a little spice to Ninja TP paradygms. Think about Mochizuki+1 Body, Hachiya+1 Hands/legs, Yokaze mantle etc.
But the consequential question at this point would be: since all of this implies a DPS sacrifice (big or small, there's gonna be a sacrifice), will this sacrifice be compensated by the additional output provided by Daken/Sange? Or will we get to a situation where there's no big enough compensation and people just ignore Daken? Because such a scenario would be pretty sad.

Think about external buffs too.
Hunter's Roll would be ok. Check!
Geo debuffs affect Target's Eva, so they would work on Acc and Racc as well. Check!
RDM's Distract II affects Eva, so again they would work on both. Check!
Sole Sushi affects Racc as well. Check!
But stuff like BRD buffs? We're not getting Preludes lol, and even if we were it would be bad because on hard stuff we likely need those madrigals.


So yeah, I'm really concerned that they made an utter mess out of what could have otherwise been a shining new feature for Ninja. Let's hope my concerns will disappear on October the 7th now.

[Damane]

Seeing how now it's pretty clear than each additional Sange merits is going to give +25 Racc to Daken during Sange, I'm starting to feel seriously concerned about these new things being added to Ninja.
Too many questions and not enough answers of course, so it's too early to let the hammer of judgment fall on Daken/Sange, but there's enough space to feel at least concerned.

SE mentioned Daken will use Throwing Skill, but that's not the only thing it will rely on to calculate the accuracy of Daken procs. Their goal is to make so Daken accuracy is more or less the same as melee hits.
Link
Now the first question is: how do they plan to do it? CAN they do it? Because the pessimist in me gets a feeling there won't be any additional modifier but it will just be Racc+Throwing skill (plus the one we get from the ilevel Shuriken)
The answer to this question is going to be very important.
IF there won't be any modifier or of the modifier won't be satisfying enough, Ninja is going to be left into a very bad and sour spot when it comes to TP gear paradygms, which is already more complicated than other jobs due to how many different sets you need according to the different amount/potency of currently active haste buffs.

Basically Ninjas will have to look with different eyes gear that also have Racc/Ratt on them. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, could add a little spice to Ninja TP paradygms. Think about Mochizuki+1 Body, Hachiya+1 Hands/legs, Yokaze mantle etc.
But the consequential question at this point would be: since all of this implies a DPS sacrifice (big or small, there's gonna be a sacrifice), will this sacrifice be compensated by the additional output provided by Daken/Sange? Or will we get to a situation where there's no big enough compensation and people just ignore Daken? Because such a scenario would be pretty sad.

Think about external buffs too.
Hunter's Roll would be ok. Check!
Geo debuffs affect Target's Eva, so they would work on Acc and Racc as well. Check!
RDM's Distract II affects Eva, so again they would work on both. Check!
Sole Sushi affects Racc as well. Check!
But stuff like BRD buffs? We're not getting Preludes lol, and even if we were it would be bad because on hard stuff we likely need those madrigals.


So yeah, I'm really concerned that they made an utter mess out of what could have otherwise been a shining new feature for Ninja. Let's hope my concerns will disappear on October the 7th now.

geo-precision also works for acc and r.acc, the only thing of concern is brd madrigals and hunter's prelude and even then, lets jsut see how the new trait works.

[Sechs]

the only thing of concern is brd madrigals and hunter's prelude

That, and gearing options.
Both things sound pretty major stuff giving all rights to be concerned imho, not something you could ignore or that would have a minimal impact.

[Damane]

That, and gearing options.
Both things sound pretty major stuff giving all rights to be concerned imho, not something you could ignore or that would have a minimal impact.

1. we dont know how the formula for the acc on shurikens/trait works
2. gearing options are a concern for every job
3. the dualwield fix will be in place in the octobor update (or should be), so thats some gearing concerns less
4. throwing and ranged attack via bow/gun dont use the same acc formula since the 1. rng nerf, throwing was never touched with nerfs or buffs in terms of distance etc.

[Treize Kordero]

No.
RDM already has Stymie. Also giving them A+ Sword skill would be too overpowered and break the servers.

No SE!!! Give RDM the damn A+ sword skill NOW!!! and while you're at it give the job more purpose too.. RAWR!!!

[Sechs]

1) Which is exactely why we should be concerned! Which is different from saying Daken/Sange sucks, since we won't be able to say until thoroughfully tested :D
2) Yes of course, but I was clearly talking about something specific here, not the generic concerns rightfully shared by more or less every melee. It's a bunch of additional, unnecessary concerns that come because of a possibly lame implementation of a new feature.
3) Not sure I get what you mean :3 As far as I understood it the mentioned DW fix will do something else. Currently adding additional DW gear when you've already reached the attack delay cap furtherly reduces the TP/hit gain, without giving any benefit. This is what they aim to fix, but that wasn't the main reason why people swapped DW gear for other gear once you reached attack cap delay. Like for instance equipping a Windbuffet Belt instead of a Shetal stone. You were putting the first in place of the latter not much (or not just) because of the negative TP gain effect, but rather because the first produces better DPS results than the latter when you don't need any more DW. Kinda the same reason for Thaumas/Qaaxo body in place of DW bodies and so on.
4) Correct, but I don't think I ever hinted about the "sweet spot" issue There simply is no issue for Throwing, afaik

[dasva]

4. throwing and ranged attack via bow/gun dont use the same acc formula since the 1. rng nerf, throwing was never touched with nerfs or buffs in terms of distance etc.

I'm fairly certain ratts with throwing were effected but the sweet spot was melee distance so it only mattered if you were trying to play nin like a rng.

[Kincard]

NIN has a couple pieces that have both melee and ranged stats (Mochi. Body +1, Hachi. Hands +1, Hachi. Legs +1, Mochi. Body in particular still has that Sange Augment that gives +100 ratk or whatever). If they add Reforged Empyrean Armor I guess they could introduce more of those.

[Sechs]

NIN has a couple pieces that have both melee and ranged stats (Mochi. Body +1, Hachi. Hands +1, Hachi. Legs +1, Mochi. Body in particular still has that Sange Augment that gives +100 ratk or whatever). If they add Reforged Empyrean Armor I guess they could introduce more of those.

And Yokaze mantle. Plus I assume the new Shurikens will have +Throwing skill and hopefully even something else.
But those pieces provide a DPS loss compared to what you would normally equip.
So is the dps loss going to get compensated by the higher accuracy of Daken/Sange?
We'll see, I suppose :D

[Kyte]

Really only the hands are a loss, but you could also use Buremte Gloves in that slot if you wanted more RACC. The body and legs are both optimal/nearly optimal accuracy pieces and the loss on the mantle is pretty minimal (or non-existent- I forget what augments it can get).

[Sechs]

Really only the hands are a loss

I dissent. When you don't need DW you could use Thaumas Coat, Qaaxo Harness or augmented Quiahuiz for better results.
When you do need the DW, body is not a loss at all (I TP in that already) but legs are 'cause Mochizuki would be better.
I doubt the difference is insane, but if I recall it's not negligible either.

Daken might compensate that of course. For now we're left wondering about that and many other things. Like why they did have to go that path instead of making Daken rely on main hand accuracy for instance.
I love the fact Daken gives people further motivation to cap Throwing skill (I capped it a couple of days ago for that very purpose), but if this choice brings more problems than positive effects then I'm not sure anymore if it's the right choice.

[Kyte]

The situations where you would be using Thaumas tend to also be situations where you wouldn't need more RACC anyways (i.e. you're dicking around with Trusts on fodder).


Situations that matter tend to be situations that call for extra ACC- in which case those are two of the best ACC swaps.

[Karbuncle]

I dissent. When you don't need DW you could use Thaumas Coat, Qaaxo Harness or augmented Quiahuiz for better results.
When you do need the DW, body is not a loss at all (I TP in that already) but legs are 'cause Mochizuki would be better.
I doubt the difference is insane, but if I recall it's not negligible either.

Daken might compensate that of course. For now we're left wondering about that and many other things. Like why they did have to go that path instead of making Daken rely on main hand accuracy for instance.
I love the fact Daken gives people further motivation to cap Throwing skill (I capped it a couple of days ago for that very purpose), but if this choice brings more problems than positive effects then I'm not sure anymore if it's the right choice.

Yah, I have to think Daken will compensate for that. Shuriken have pretty crazy base damage as is, I imagine the I.lv Shuriken will follow the same general crazy-DPS formula, so these Shuriken hits will probably be doing 2-3x the damage of a Katana hit.

Which means, it might actually be better for a NIN to give consideration to R.acc in builds.

[Sechs]

That would be quite an awesome scenario ^^

[Ophannus]

Whenever i solo on drg and use ulmia and no joachim i always have ballads cuz i use a whm trust, same if i only use joachim and no ulmia. The only way i ever get marches fulltime is when i use both brd trusts, so i dont see why joachim+ulmia > uka