Dev Tracker: Discussion

[FaeQueenCory]

I understand what Capuchin wants to say with "DNC isn't meant to be a top tier DPS".
But as things stand now they have two ways to make DNC a job that can fit in group content: 1) Make his buffs/debuffs relevant, 2) Make his DPS stronger
SE picked the third hidden choice: a bit of everything.
Indeed DNC received some things for 1) and some for 2), but nothing that's gonna make a difference for the types of content where you wouldn't have wanted a DNC before these changes.

Personally between the two I would have liked number 2), at that point the JA thing wouldn't have been too much of an issue, but to achieve that they should have made so many more different things compared to now, like
1) Increase JA haste cap (not overall cap)
2) Make Drain/Aspir samba do additional damage and work on everything, not just drainable/aspirable targets
3) New sambas (DA? Crit? Whatever)
4) Steps still capping at 5, but double/triple potency for DNC main
5) New steps
6) More resist amnesia
7) More STP (MUCH more)
8) Healing Waltz II (AoE, with a big enough cooldown)
9) Make Healing Waltz remove more stuff than it currently does
10) Make Sambas work alliance wide and not party wide (like steps)

Dunno what else, a dispel Flourish maybe?
With these changes, or maybe even just some of them, DNC could have come a wanted job at least for alliance content (anybody still does stuff with more than 6 people these days? =/)
Clearly it was too big of a change and they tried to address it in another way but that will sadly change nothing about DNC being more wanted in game content.


At the same time trying to see the glass half full, the situation over the last few months clearly improved for us DNCs. We're not where we would like to be but for the type of stuff we used DNC before, things got much better.

We have better than a DA samba, it's Haste Samba + Saber Dance.
And steps now increase in potency to 10 instead of 5... so they already did that too.
And healing waltz gets to be AoE from contradance. At least iirc it does.

DNC could definitely use more alliance-friendly buffing. But it seems they're ditching large style gameplay via alliance content.
So while it would be good for stuff like sambas to be alliance-wide, I doubt they're gonna do that (even though they should) because they figure DNC should be PT-only...
Not that that makes sense to us humans... but SE is like God: their reasoning defies human comprehension.

And what about Dnc's issue of JA spamming making their DPS all but nil? Or their Waltz's being largely unneeded in a party? Or their debuffs lacking greatly in the ratio of potency to build up time, while being generally less useful than other much easier gained buffs/debuffs? Never mind that all of this is available as a sub.

More TP does not fix Dnc, at all.

More TP certainly HELPS DNC not be bottomtier. Because it frees DNC from having to choose between WS or waltz or samba or step or w/e. (And the argument that waltzes are worthless are 100% bull. Last I checked AoE -na is good regardless of WHM or not. Or did Winds of Promy suddenly become bad for the group when I wasn't looking?)
And now that steps go to lv10, can be laid out to that level extremely quickly... The point of them being the same as /dnc is moot.
Hell, FEATHER STEP is worth using now that it has 2x potency... and that's main only.
Then there's also flourish3s which are worth using now for their CHR SATA-like damage boost...
DNC main is becoming more and more differentiated than /dnc.... except in like Dynamis... but that's Dynamis... Solo-content (now). Not a party/alliance setting.

It's certainly not a "heavy DD"... but now with all the adjustments it's gotten, it's not shit-tier.
It's no longer a subjob only.
And the biggest hindrance to DNC is TP gain.

At least when we look within the system in use:

To be clear, I didn't think that the DW changes were going to help DNC that much either. It would have boosted my TP gain by 20%, but only boosted my DPS by something like 7% thanks to WS delay. It just felt dumb that SE canceled the changes and then gave Ninja a job trait instead when Haste Samba is what really pushes DW jobs over the edge and makes them unable to compensate for their job traits.

Giving Store TP traits would obviously have a similar effect as the DW changes, but all the time. Its effects would, also, be minor.

The real fix for the job is to reduce JA delay.

I agree. But let's be realistic... That's not gonna change. Ever.
So ignoring the problems from a 13yrold system enforced because the devilgod Dia'luop existed at one point... TP/DW-overflow is what hurts DNC the most atm.
Which, like you said and which I agree, wouldn't boost the job (or any DW job)...
But it would fix the problem at hand.
Which is why I suggest and stand behind Store TP 3 for DNC.

[Kincard]

Well, unless they're trying to throw us for a loop, here it is. Adoulin's story is concluding after "only" about a year and a half. Wonder what will be coming after that? They did imply not long ago that the ilevel could still go up. Does this mean there will be another land to see around the corner?

[Ophannus]

Giving DNC Auto-regain II would be a good start. To prevent abuse, let it only activate when engaged and on an enemy's hate list, similar to Moonshade Earring but add in "needs to have enmity". This way you cant engage a mob from afar and charge your TP harmlessly.

[dasva]

Hmm no tp feed for Daken I'm sure there is a way to break that

[Darkmagi]

Ceremonial dagger to kill things slowly without them ever TPing?lol Sounds awful, but would probably work.

[Draylo]

Well, unless they're trying to throw us for a loop, here it is. Adoulin's story is concluding after "only" about a year and a half. Wonder what will be coming after that? They did imply not long ago that the ilevel could still go up. Does this mean there will be another land to see around the corner?

Seems really short tbh, I haven't completed the missions though, we gotta duo it again Lol. If there is a new expansion I think they'll do the mithra homeland possibly as its been mentioned a few times. I'd prefer tenzens land tho

[dasva]

Ceremonial dagger to kill things slowly without them ever TPing?lol Sounds awful, but would probably work.

And sub cor so when qd is up you can switch to the new nin gun real quick!

[Darkmagi]

I can't think of any fight that would be useful on unless you were trying to do 75 era soloing with just the daken thing. Everything is either time based or has regain/magic that creates a threat anyways.

[Ibisariot]

-Adoulin Missions Climax: November will add the final chapter in the Adoulin Missions.
-"Unity Concord": A new community system of some kind designed for larger groups than linkshells, details will be coming soon

SoA's finale already? Geez, feels like the story is only just starting for real now. Half of the missions just felt like laying the foundation. I can hardly remember much beyond fiddling around in the woods and running back to the castle for a cutscene, then waiting several months.

I'm guessing this "Unity Concord" thing is supposed to be that dual LS feature, though it sounds a bit more involved than simply equipping two pearls.

[Elizara]

I'm glad it's only a year and a half. Wings of the Goddess was dragged out for three bloody years, and that was too long. I hope we have a really good ending to the story though. ^^

[dasva]

I can't think of any fight that would be useful on unless you were trying to do 75 era soloing with just the daken thing. Everything is either time based or has regain/magic that creates a threat anyways.

I think there is less regain than people think. I know in the past there have been mobs that are said to have regain but then you hold with shadows for 10 minutes and no moves. I think some. Not allof the fast tp gain mobs just have insane amounts of store tp or have traits where they get a lot more from being hit. That said it was a joke though having a better dmg dealt to tp given rate might have some merit in pts. Nin pt go! All /dnc for stuns and steps and self curing since you aren't using the tp anyways

[Damane]

Seems really short tbh, I haven't completed the missions though, we gotta duo it again Lol. If there is a new expansion I think they'll do the mithra homeland possibly as its been mentioned a few times. I'd prefer tenzens land tho

i doubt they have the ressources for another expansion, my guess is some abyssea style addons. but yeah feels very quick to be finished with story in 1.5 years compared to wotg, that was like what 3 years+? I wouldnt be suprised if they continue/restart the abyssea story revolving around aht urghan. Maybe instead of giving exp it gives CP.

[arus2001]

I think there is less regain than people think. I know in the past there have been mobs that are said to have regain but then you hold with shadows for 10 minutes and no moves. I think some. Not allof the fast tp gain mobs just have insane amounts of store tp or have traits where they get a lot more from being hit. That said it was a joke though having a better dmg dealt to tp given rate might have some merit in pts. Nin pt go! All /dnc for stuns and steps and self curing since you aren't using the tp anyways

While we know that mobs usually TP the moment they get 100% under 25% HP, I am of the mind that some had other quirks. Most readily obvious to me seemed like when fighting Shadow mobs, they'd counter with a TP move after a WS if they had the TP. Least, that's my thought when farming Eldieme keys or other things in Fei'Yin. :/

[Prothescar]

Adoulin's story has had horrible pacing. Up until the last set of missions, they were so, soooo boring and gave very little in terms of narrative; side quests and POL posts providing more depth and meat to the characters and events than the actual game's cutscenes were. Hopefully the last set doesn't feel rushed and incomplete.

As far as Unity Concord is concerned, likely won't be useful outside of JP timezones for most servers.

i doubt they have the ressources for another expansion, my guess is some abyssea style addons.

Why? They're putting out monthly updates with an above average amount of content additions and changes to existing mechanics, which is more than can be said about most other games on the market atm. It isn't unreasonable to assume that there may be another expac on the horizon. Could see most people waiting for it to drop in price though, if it did come out. And I wouldn't expect new jobs out of it, just a continuation of the iLvl and content progression lines.

Compare to XIV. Tri-monthly updates, 6 months between endgame additions. XI's in a great spot right now when it comes to updates and content generation. Resources are likely not a problem.

[Priran]

i doubt they have the ressources for another expansion

People said that before they announced SoA, too. Maybe they're throwing all their resources toward a new expansion, and that's why we've been primarily getting high-tier mission rehashes for the past several months?

There's a ton of dangling plot threads and we'll see how they wrap them up, but there's a lot of expansion fodder being set up in SoA. Plus SE isn't exactly in financial shape to be throwing away guaranteed constant profit like FFXI.

[Draylo]

Yeah.. you know people said that exact same thing before Adoulin was released? You can be bored with FFXI all you want but pessimistic views from everyone here won't stop them from trying to make profit. I can only imagine how much they made off Adoulin when you consider they reused a ton of shit.

[Damane]

Adoulin's story has had horrible pacing. Up until the last set of missions, they were so, soooo boring and gave very little in terms of narrative; side quests and POL posts providing more depth and meat to the characters and events than the actual game's cutscenes were. Hopefully the last set doesn't feel rushed and incomplete.

As far as Unity Concord is concerned, likely won't be useful outside of JP timezones for most servers.





Why? They're putting out monthly updates with an above average amount of content additions and changes to existing mechanics, which is more than can be said about most other games on the market atm. It isn't unreasonable to assume that there may be another expac on the horizon. Could see most people waiting for it to drop in price though, if it did come out. And I wouldn't expect new jobs out of it, just a continuation of the iLvl and content progression lines.

Compare to XIV. Tri-monthly updates, 6 months between endgame additions. XI's in a great spot right now when it comes to updates and content generation. Resources are likely not a problem.

As much as i would like a new expansion, i just dont see it comeing. Dont get me wrong we get regular updates, but most of the endgame content is reused zones/mobs. (not counting in the new areas and missions as endgame). This could mean different things:
- They are trying to safe ressources because they are doing all those QoL adjustments
- They are trying to safe ressources because they have barely any left
- They are trying to safe ressources because they are working on a yet not officially announced expansion
(could also be a combination of all above)

lets see what we got:
- Hardmode mission battles: reused zones, reused bosses
- Delve 2.0: reused zones, reused bosses
- Skirmish 3.0: reused zone (albeit new), reused bosses, with the ecxeption of one
- Alluvion skirmish: reused zone, reused bosses, with the ecxeption of 1 (Balamur from the mission lines)
- Incursion: reused zone, reused bosses, with the ecxeption of gram, which was shown in a sidestory questline briefly

now this isnt a bad thing per say, because in my opinion we have so many unused areas, so it would be silly to not reuse them for different purposes. but what would an expansion add besides some new zones that are exciting for the first 5 min, new quests and new missions, and maybe some new battlemechanic(reives/campaign etc).
Imho i wouldnt mind a continuation of the abyssea story line useing aht urgahn zones. And I love the adoulin expansion, i just dont see currently the point of another expansion.

[Capuchin]

I'm not saying DNC is all the way there, but I do like more of a focus on a support/debuffer role as opposed to bumping up DD power.

When S-E looked at the native DW jobs, I sort of feel like they took all of them as having their own unique attributes to enhance to give them their own niche:

1) NIN was the "DD focus" of the group, which makes sense because it's also the best possible tank, and with enmity as it is, doing damage is really the key to holding hate (notice S-E specifically cited tanking when they introduced Daken, and also recently buffed other NIN tanking aspects through Enmity ninjutsu and Max HP Bonus trait in the past couple updates)

2) THF has TH, that's its niche in addition to whatever damage it brings to the table. Honestly, I think they need some more changes and IIRC they said they'd be looking more closely at the job. Perhaps some substantial improvements to the enmity management aspects of the job that the Tanaka-era dev team always cited. I could see something like changing Trick Attack to work more like Decoy Shot and divert a portion of enmity for a set time instead of a single attack, and/or adjusting Accomplice/Collaborator somehow (maybe make accomplice steal enmity from one party member, and collaborator GIVE enmity to another member)

3) BLU - as a sort-of-native DW job - gets the "versatility" (for better or worse) or being to set lots of spells for many situations, with some decently powerful traits as a recent trend. And BLU has always had pretty good burst damage capabilities.

4) DNC gets more focus on its support aspects. Are we there yet? Maybe not, but it's a good start at trying to actually define a role for the job other than soloist & subjob. At the very least, continuing to work on strengthen its support ability gives DNC a better argument to get an invite to group content than "well, I DD like a THF but I don't have Treasure Hunter".

@cappucchin: the dnc debuffs and buffs are laughable ar best compared to my Idris geo.

Idris GEO stomps all over everything for debuffs though, so I don't think that's a very fair comparison - and it's not like there are many Idris GEOs out there, it would be incredibly poor judgment to balance the game based on assuming people have the super-rare Ergon weapons. I do like your suggestion of somewhat enhancing step potency though. To avoid the "why not just take a /DNC?" argument Byrth mentioned (and that's a good point), maybe buff potency only for DNC main.

I also really like your suggestion of making step level cap faster. Easy solution would be to make each step give more levels either (a) for DNC main, (b) when combined with Presto, or (c) both. Again, this also boosts DNC main's utility a lot more than ???/DNC.

People talking about Waltz being fairly ineffective in a group, well, yeah. But I don't really think it needs to be, it has its place in solo play to the point of being a defining solo ability for DNC or /DNC. The one addition that could be REALLY helpful for group content is an AoE Healing Waltz, which is an ability type that's fairly uncommon in general: Yagrush, Accession+na, BLU's Winds of Promy, Carbuncle's Soothing Ruby. Healing Waltz AoE would have disadvantages to Yagrush (as it should) in being less specific about which debuffs to remove, but still a very useful tool for the many groups that don't have the luxury of a Mythic WHM.

[Karbuncle]

Reused bosses in Incursion <_<? I don't remember any of those Beastmen having NMs up and about... or is it some storyline thing?

[Prothescar]

Things about reused content

People say this a lot, but I'm not sure they understand entirely what it means. Reusing models and zones is one thing, retooling and recoding the battles, AI behaviours, etc. of these battles is another, especially in a game as old as XI where there's a loooooooot of code to sift through. Reusing assets is not a bad thing; iterating on already established models, meshes, and textures saves the art department from having to put in more effort toward "filler" content and more toward the next level of content, but the people responsible for programming the fights, the people responsible for balancing the monsters and their behavior, the people responsible for creating and balancing new items? They're all doing just as much work on "reused content" as any of the new content that will ever come out, with the exception of not having to come up with new names and effects for every single attack and monster included.

This isn't even considering the multitude of new systems, QoL changes, etc. that have all been added to the game which also probably took loads of work from a programming standpoint.