Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Sechs]

Well yes, I can agree with your pov.
Ra'kaznar is cool, Foret too. Overall Adoulin areas are "ok" but they lack "something", but many of us gladly accepted the level of "mediocrity" because at least it was something new compared to the rehashed stuff we had been getting for years, before SoA.
There are a couple of beautiful spots in Adoulin Areas too though.
I can think of Colkhab's Lair, the zone close to Marjami's WKR, Leafallia, couple of spots in Kamir (and the cutscene-only zone used for the Saj'akka stuff is incredibly cool as well)

This reminds me... some time ago I saw a video of Ra'la with people poshacking through walls, and basically there are a LOT of "rooms" and cooridors unused in the blank spot of the map between the western and eastern wings.
I was expecting those "parts" to get released sometimes before the end of the game but at this point I don't know what to think anymore...

[Treize Kordero]

The only real issue I had with Adoulin areas was the same music over and over it wasn't until we got Yorcia Weald before we got a different variety of music. Beyond that I felt they did a good job on the Adoulin areas.

I also feel that the Adoulin areas became increasingly safe/less dangerous as we got stronger through merits, ilvl gear, JPs, and job adjustments. Only Ra'kaznar, Yorcia, and Kamihr maintain any level of danger.

[ccl]

They are giving us so much content lately, a new expac won't surprise me at all, my only issue with current XI(beside low population server) is that we're invincible and I don't see how they can fix that (we pretty much have unlimited mp and can either stun lock shit or pld afk tank it).

[Damane]

They are giving us so much content lately, a new expac won't surprise me at all, my only issue with current XI(beside low population server) is that we're invincible and I don't see how they can fix that (we pretty much have unlimited mp and can either stun lock shit or pld afk tank it).

this is what happens when you only buff stuff and almost never nerf stuff. i know people scream at nerfs. but nerfs can just be as helpfull to the overall gameplay. Remember the screams on embrava and PD nerf? god i was so glad they nerfed that shit.

[ccl]

I agree with you(for once ) they need to nerf our mp/refresh and pld invincibility, they can fix enmity and making pld able to keep hate over melee, if pld isn't invincible, this won't be broken as it would be if it happened now.

[Edelweiss]

the reason that type of shit wouldnt work is because good players wouldnt use it. there is no reason to put yourself in the position to fail with the unknown variable that is random groupings. abyssea ruined the game by creating a generation of players that get angry whenever people tell them how to do their jobs, even though when theyre doing it wrong, they should be told so. if someone can 2box a job and be 2-3 times more effective and contribute WAY more to a group than you, yet "dont tell me how to do my job" is a response, then regardless of what you believe people will be glad when youve left the group, people will be irritated when you join the group, and no one, NO ONE, will /t you to join a group.

Abyssea isn't responsible for things that were going on as far back as 2003. Also, Abyssea didn't create a new generation. Who even implies it brought new blood in, in any significant amount? lol

C'mon.

[Kyte]

the reason that type of shit wouldnt work is because good players wouldnt use it.

At one point I might have agreed with this, but it has been my observation that many people are getting truly desperate. What makes this work on at least some content is that, prior to going into the BC, you can look around you and say to yourself "wow I really got the 3rd string this time" and just choose a Normal difficulty setting rather than the Difficult or VD that you were hoping for.

[Spira]

I expect that another expansion is in the works.. since the development cycle and system they've established in SoA works to a certain degree and keeps players entertained. But maybe not so soon? I think they'd keep developing stuff to fill Adoulin with content before they move on.

Seekers of Adoulin is a fairly decent expansion. What I see to be the main problem with the new zones is that part of its design - and by design i mean both layout and mob placement seem to hark back to pre-Abyssea days, when people actually EXP in the open world and created camps. We remembered a lot of older areas because we created our own purposes out of these areas.. as was intended by the developers.. but few people do the same anymore in SoA, given that Abyssea was the speediest way to go for EXP till 99, and I'm not sure about the merit/capacity situation but I gather people don't camp anymore.

This, plus the fact that Ulbuka is untamed wilderness, mean that a majority of the zones are lacking in purpose. Only a certain number of areas are actually useful (reives for your coalition stuff, bivouacs, waypoints) and the rest is somewhat pointless. A lot of things didn't go as designed - people aren't spamming reives outside the ones that can be solo/low manned anymore, and nobody touches ergon loci. The only thing that uses the zone is Delve ground NMs. And thats like 5 spots in each zone.

There are also no open world NMs to camp.. nothing that requires you to 'understand' the area.. or stuff like that. When you simplify things like that it takes away the appeal of the area itself.

Some are pretty tho. I love the feel of Foret and Kamihr. The ergon loci spots are typically quite interesting to look at too.

another thing to note is that older areas thus far have always had new content layered on them.. especially the original areas.
for example: EXP/open world NMs -> Expeditionary Force -> FoVs in general -> the FoV NM -> Hunt Registry (rekindling NM hunting) -> Voidwalkers -> Trials of the Magian (again rekindling interest in NMs) -> Voidwatch -> Records of Eminence.

the last major expansion WotG had areas with purposes layered on them too.
EXP/open world NMs/campaign/campaign ops -> Sealed Crate NMs -> Succor to the Sidhe -> Voidwalkers -> ToTM -> Voidwatch -> Records of Eminence. I don't remember if they have FoVs.

[Darkmagi]

I'm sure there is another expansion in the works and they will continue to provide content to keep the majority paying, until the game stops becoming a source of reliable income. I absolutely do not expect any of these grand ideas like changing battle balance though, the most I'd ever hope for would be an enmity fix, and even then I don't think they will ever do it properly. Fact of the matter is that the majority of the players are casuals who still find Delve1 to be a difficult challenge. The high end players who are caught up on everything and just grinding out new mythics and such to keep the flow are probably less than 5% of the total playerbase.

[arus2001]

the reason that type of shit wouldnt work is because good players wouldnt use it. there is no reason to put yourself in the position to fail with the unknown variable that is random groupings. abyssea ruined the game by creating a generation of players that get angry whenever people tell them how to do their jobs, even though when theyre doing it wrong, they should be told so. if someone can 2box a job and be 2-3 times more effective and contribute WAY more to a group than you, yet "dont tell me how to do my job" is a response, then regardless of what you believe people will be glad when youve left the group, people will be irritated when you join the group, and no one, NO ONE, will /t you to join a group.

"Moooooom, people are legitimately having fun on their own terms! Why don't they play like meeeeeee?!"

We know, playing with gimps sucks. Yes, the hardcore love to rule from on high in their anti-PUG isolation. Anyone who claims Abyssea ruined the game, however, is a fucking moron. I really, truly, honestly feel bad that you can't see the value in accessible incremental progression in a game now boasting 22 classes in a threadbare multi-lingual population with no matchmaking tools. Time to get out of that logic where it takes months with an alliance to do anything in an MMO, broski. Then you might realize all the people you're hating on are the reason you have the content you do enjoy... if any. Hard to tell anymore. Was Abyssea perfect? No. Better than VW and Legion? Leaps and bounds, I'd say. Of course, the logistics argument has fallen on deaf ears this long, I doubt it'll stick now.

[Seha]

Am I the only one who thinks Aby had both good and bad points to it? Looks like everyone thinks in black and white only.

[Priran]

Anyone who claims Abyssea ruined the game, however, is a fucking moron. I really, truly, honestly feel bad that you can't see the value in accessible incremental progression in a game now boasting 22 classes in a threadbare multi-lingual population with no matchmaking tools. Time to get out of that logic where it takes months with an alliance to do anything in an MMO, broski. Then you might realize all the people you're hating on are the reason you have the content you do enjoy... if any. Hard to tell anymore. Was Abyssea perfect? No. Better than VW and Legion? Leaps and bounds, I'd say. Of course, the logistics argument has fallen on deaf ears this long, I doubt it'll stick now.

So your argument that Abyssea didn't ruin the game is that things that came after it were worse? And say that people who isolate themselves amongst alts are bad, while praising the change that made that feasible?

Abyssea ended horizontal progression FFXI and started vertical progression FFXI. FFXI had a solid player base for years before that, and since then it's been dying. It's a treadmill one way or the other, but at least horizontal progression was relatively unique for a MMO operating in 2010. Abyssea homogenized FFXI to the state of the MMO genre in 2010, which simultaneously alienated tons of people whose idea of what an MMO should be was rooted in 2002-2004 and drew in absolutely nobody because the people who like that sort of game were too busy hopping between AAA WoW clones.

Maybe Abyssea didn't ruin your subjective enjoyment of the game, but for a lot of people it did, and it objectively killed off the game's identity pre-2010.

[arus2001]

Am I the only one who thinks Aby had both good and bad points to it? Looks like everyone thinks in black and white only.

For me, the flaws were generally tied to congestion (timers or single pops) with a side of not all progression paths being equal (Quests and NMs alike). I guess I'd also put the proc system in, too, since the optimal meta basically said, "Fuck all jobs not WAR/WHM/BLU/BLM(/BRD)!" And while I know it's common to claim Abyssea killed the concept of the linkshell as existed during the HNM era, I do feel it ultimately for the better in finding out who was actually around to be a friend and not just a means to an end. The politics that spring from the latter is a cancer in its own way. And this is really something that tends to get lost in the shuffle of trying to enforce the "multiplayer" aspect of MMOs, especially if nostalgia is the motivator.

So your argument that Abyssea didn't ruin the game is that things that came after it were worse? And say that people who isolate themselves amongst alts are bad, while praising the change that made that feasible?

Not everyone mutli-boxed, or even took things a step beyond with full-on automation of their alts. To design the game around this reality or even assert it a standard is folly.

Abyssea homogenized FFXI to the state of the MMO genre in 2010, which simultaneously alienated tons of people whose idea of what an MMO should be was rooted in 2002-2004 and drew in absolutely nobody because the people who like that sort of game were too busy hopping between AAA WoW clones.

Obligatory, "Server conditions may vary!" disclaimer in play, but I think you're more inclined to find more testimonials of population spikes and a surge of activity throughout the Abyssea era. Ixion and Sandworm weren't much of an endgame, and anyone who was anyone was likely done with most endgame activities prior short of relics and mythics. The gap between WotG's launch and Abyssea was perhaps too long, with ACP and such being part of that reason as content failures in their own right.

That said, it's exactly because the game is rooted as it was that new blood wasn't coming. The reputation had been set. XI was probably closer to a punishing Korean grinder than the WoW. Classes were and are still imbalanced. Dev communication was virtually non-existent and stubborn as all get-out. The game was very much one you didn't want to get into unless you knew people in it or could start with at least a few others. More of the same simply wasn't going to rejuvenate the game, but at the same time, disclaimer in play, once Abyssea had run its course and we reverted to Tanaka-esque policies, populations dropped, friends lists starting being more empty, people simply sought fun elsewhere because the things some are prone to defend simply weren't fun. Somewhere along the line, common sense became confused with the "instant gratification" buzz word.

It's not that Abyssea failed, it's that SE let the momentum wane. The XIV monster a factor in this? Probably. This isn't to say XI hasn't done some good things since, though. Hoping to recreate the good ol' days isn't gonna happen, however.

[dasva]

I think it's funny because back in the day a lot of people were saying aht urghan was ruining the player base in the same ways they do about abyssea now

[Isiolia]

Abyssea ended horizontal progression FFXI and started vertical progression FFXI. FFXI had a solid player base for years before that, and since then it's been dying.

Abyssea didn't do anything to change progression in and of itself. If the game shifted to be more vertical, that was a product of the accompanying rise in the level cap.

I'd say the much larger role that Abyssea played, and to a large point continues to play, is reducing the time/effort needed for XP and basic/decent gear. It's a fairly logical thing that, in any given MMO, the design should allow for a new player to catch up to new/relevant content in a reasonable amount of time. Abyssea does that. FoV/GoV/RoE/etc does that.

Once at 99, options started getting more horizontal again. Empyrean gear, Relic +2, Neo Nyzul, Salvage 2, Voidwatch, Meebles, augmented items, and so on gave plenty of options. Sure, you had that huge shift from 75-centric to 99-centric, but once the dust settled, it was a similar situation, and could have stayed that way. Even at that point, actual levels were the biggest factor.

Adoulin/iLevel seems a lot more like the transition to a vertical focus over time.

[arus2001]

I think it's funny because back in the day a lot of people were saying aht urghan was ruining the player base in the same ways they do about abyssea now

Guess it's a matter of which brand of cereal SE chose to piss in. In this case, likely the BLMs and the general FU to offensive mages ToAU brought while things like collibri were pretty much miles ahead anything else on the merit front. But just like Abyssea procs, that had its job bias, too. Bluntly, the only real "like" I could take away from ToAU was the coming of BLU. Sure, the job had issues and still does in its own way, but Beseiged was a mess, the tag system tied to Assault/Nyzul/Salvage sucked, I wasn't personally a fan of Salvage's "gimp you just because!" gimmick with cells and shit, and Ein always seemed to turn into waiting an hour for 15 minutes of play.

But times change, people learn, and some might realize they didn't know better back then. Change is scary or somethin'.

[Damane]

So your argument that Abyssea didn't ruin the game is that things that came after it were worse? And say that people who isolate themselves amongst alts are bad, while praising the change that made that feasible?

Abyssea ended horizontal progression FFXI and started vertical progression FFXI. FFXI had a solid player base for years before that, and since then it's been dying. It's a treadmill one way or the other, but at least horizontal progression was relatively unique for a MMO operating in 2010. Abyssea homogenized FFXI to the state of the MMO genre in 2010, which simultaneously alienated tons of people whose idea of what an MMO should be was rooted in 2002-2004 and drew in absolutely nobody because the people who like that sort of game were too busy hopping between AAA WoW clones.

Maybe Abyssea didn't ruin your subjective enjoyment of the game, but for a lot of people it did, and it objectively killed off the game's identity pre-2010.

i liked abyssea, it was for me spot on, sure it had some flaws, but i liked it. The game was dwindling pre abyssea tremendously, i myself was loosing interest big time then and thought about quitting, and then abyssea came and injected so much fun and life into the game. I think the game would be in a worse state if abyssea and lvl cap raise wouldnt have happened. Most people that quit, didnt quit because of abyssea, but because they got reset to 0 gear wise with the release of abyssea, so their precious abjurations etc. didnt mean shit anymore, they lost their high horse (so did I, but i didnt give a thing about it i was too excited!). Instead of welcomeing the changes with opening arms and be enjoyd by refreshing new content.
the content following abyssea was just awfull. Voidwatch was a nice concept but was totally destroyed by the unforgiving RNG personal treasure chest where you couldnt transfer stuff you didnt want for your teammates. And Legion was just a Embrava/Stun/PD zerg fest requiring again larget amounts of peeps, when shells were allready gone. if they would have gone the 3-18 man optional route like they do now (delve 1.0, delve 2.0, incursion), with varying degrees of difficulty and scaleing HP etc. and 6 man content they would have done better. people got really frustrated by Voidwatch and most didnt even touch Legion because of the amount of people needed (not to mention the lackluster rewards in most cases).

another reason was also that shells didnt need to carry deadweight people, since abyssea didnt need more then 4-6 people to get stuff done (later on even less), you also didnt need to play with someone you disliked. Ass licking of leaders was gone.

[dasva]

Guess it's a matter of which brand of cereal SE chose to piss in.

Basically. You can never please everyone and people will always bitch and to some extant have a point. Other things people didn't like the whole lvling so fast you don't really learn your jobs. No one knows how to MB/SC anymore. Sam is OP (it was though). Plus even back then there were the doomsayers saying the game was dieing. I remember people being said similar about WotG and how campaign allowed you to solo from like mid 50s to all your merits. Oh no no one knows how to party anymore

[arus2001]

...and people still sucked then, too!

[Sechs]

They are giving us so much content lately, a new expac won't surprise me at all, my only issue with current XI(beside low population server) is that we're invincible and I don't see how they can fix that (we pretty much have unlimited mp and can either stun lock shit or pld afk tank it).

They have plenty of simple ways to "fix" that.
Not sure players would like it then, though.