Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Kincard]

This idea that they should never nerf anything is really silly from a common sense game design perspective and it's a big reason so many things are still broken in the game. In any other game designers would've removed broken stuff like Ochain/Aegis/Daurd a long time ago instead of trying to bring other items up to their strength. (I can't think of any other game that has a piece of equipment that can make it so you take like 15% magic damage unless there was some massive downside to it) Granted, they really should've stopped themselves from creating items like that in the first place.

It's much simpler and more sensible to nerf SAM right now. The fact that the community is simple minded in what they end up shouting for really shouldn't be a factor in this considering the sheer amount in which SAM exceeds other damage classes.

[Prothescar]

Another way to look at it: from the perspective of what makes sense.

If every DD job operated at the same level as SAM in one way or another, then you'd be able to clear content even faster than you can now (which, imo, is far faster than it should be, but whatever). They'd need to balance at least 10 jobs to make the "buff not nerf" mantra work, and they'd then likely have to rebalance a lot of content or create loads of new content since the existing stuff would be far too simplistic under these new parameters. I saw healers and stuff mentioned too, and that would be even worse.

It's far easier and more reasonable to nerf the problem child down to a reasonable level than to rework several more times content just so someone can see their bigger epeen numbers. The game's balance would be in a much better place for it, and unless you're a super bastard there would be almost no reason to ignore or deny party membership to almost any DD in the game at the moment since, believe it or not, the relative balance of power aside from SAM isn't that bad right now. You'd be looking at minor differences in content clear times between things like DRK, WAR, MNK, BLU DD setups.

I remember a similar thing happening back in Abyssea era, when Ukko's Fury got nerfed to bring WAR closer in line with other jobs and people got ridiculously huttburt for no reason. Similar issue here.

[Hitou]

The Ukko and Victory Smite nerfs had 0 effect on the player-base though. People still used WAR and MNK for their utility in the popular content at the time.

I'd still like to hear some ideas on how they should nerf SAM instead of everyone parroting that it should happen at all. SC damage is broken so reverting that to before the update would be one way, and it would prevent the next best SCing job from taking the same slot as SAM. Other than that, what's so broken about SAM? They could nerf fudo over 2000 TP, is anyone really holding on to TP on SAM though?

[Sechs]

This idea that they should never nerf anything is really silly from a common sense game design perspective and it's a big reason so many things are still broken in the game. In any other game designers would've removed broken stuff like Ochain/Aegis/Daurd a long time ago instead of trying to bring other items up to their strength. (I can't think of any other game that has a piece of equipment that can make it so you take like 15% magic damage unless there was some massive downside to it) Granted, they really should've stopped themselves from creating items like that in the first place.

This, this, this, so much this.
I'm agreeing so much I'm about to cry.

I do have it to give a point to Hitou though. How would you guys "nerf" SAM?

[Prothescar]

and yet at the time people screamed bloody murder about how their ukonvasura was now useless and MNK+WAR would no longer be good jobs. SE took the logical approach in bringing down the strongest instead of bringing up ALL of the weakest.

first thing's first: inhibit multistep SC damage and reduce the damage bonus that SCs got in the buff. improve SC options of jobs that aren't SAM. only a couple of WSs would need adjustment, so not nearly as much of a difference as potentially reworking several jobs.

[Sechs]

Improving SC options for other jobs would be quite a big changer, but I don't see them doing that honestly.
Maybe a big simplification/standardization of the whole Skillchain system? I don't see this happening either but maybe more likely than individually changing SC properties on all WSs.
In a game where you're constantly at the attack speed cap and spamming WSs, in a game where SCs are finally important, every job that "breaks" the chain of SCs with their WSs will never be brought in.
If they could solve this then yes, it would go a long way into changing the current situation. But HOW can they do it?
Regardless, kudos to Prothescar, I think you hit bull's eye with that.

Another of the core issues I was thinking about, that particularly hindered the game many years ago, is the fact that the TP system applies to enemies as well.
In most other MMOs enemies have an AI and use their actions according to certain criterias.
In FFXI you have that to a certain degree for some special enemy, but the basic thing is that monster gain TP through their attacks and by receiving attacks, and when they reach a certain amount of TP they will use a random move among the set of moves they have currently open (certain moves become available only when certain requisites are fulfilled etc)
Such a system is broken to begin with. Of course it promoted slow attacking jobs because the more TP you feed, the more TPmoves you're gonna receive, making most fights actually harder with more people than they are with less.
This has been the "standard" with FFXI for a long time. You could say things haven't changed when they added scaling to Delve.
When you compare it to other MMOs on the market I always found it strange that something becomes easier with less people. Now if this would be an exception I wouldn't see any big issue, but in FFXI it's quite not the case I'm afraid.
Always wondered why in over 11 years they never bothered to think about adjusting this to the source.

[Malithar]

If every DD job operated at the same level as SAM in one way or another

Just playing devil's advocate really, but at that point, why bring Sam? They'd have to time WSs with other's WSs in order to SC to make up the difference. Queue complaints that Sam is too weak unless you have the skill/timing/non WS spamming DD party to use the correct WSs to SC off of others, and all that just to about break even with them.

Personally, I'd gut SCs. You either abuse them or they accidentally (for the most part) happen. MBing is entirely too weak compared to the damage WSs and SCs are putting out. I'd just make a SC be the visual effect, perhaps some debuff, and increasing any magic damage of it's elements by 2x or whatever for 5-10 seconds, while not being interrupted or overwritten by proceeding WSs or SCs. Toss in some massive stacking -enmity%, change Skill Chain traits to increasing the potency of the debuff/+magic damage effect, and hell duration too for the hell of it.

No math to back any of it up though. To be frank, I'm actually curious how a Sam's DPS would look with 0 SCs at all. I'd imagine Fudo spamming is still very competitive, if not still on top of other DDs. But getting rid of the ridiculous SCs would certainly be a start.

[Prothescar]

Just playing devil's advocate really, but at that point, why bring Sam?

because there would be no reason not to? they'd all be on the same level. problem is the level is too high and it's much easier to lower SAM down to theirs than bring everone else up to SAM's

[Malithar]

because there would be no reason not to? they'd all be on the same level. problem is the level is too high and it's much easier to lower SAM down to theirs than bring everone else up to SAM's

Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. Would others be balanced around what Sam can put out with it's own DDing, WSs, and SCs? Or just it's own DDing and WSing? If they're brought in line with the former, then there's no reason to Sam, extra work just to break even. If they're brought in line with the latter, then it fixes nothing, as Sam can still solo SC for more than an additional DD brings.

[Prothescar]

Extra work how, exactly? SAM never needed SCs to be a top tier DD.

[Malithar]

Extra work how, exactly?

Skill chaining...? XD You start opening whatever SC you plan to do, the DD who now pumps out as much as you do interrupts it because he's just mindlessly spamming his best WS, now you're stuck using a weaker WS to close some sort of SC, or just say screw it and spam Fudo, losing out on SC damage. The SC damage is what's throwing it out of whack. You'd have to balance around one or the other.

Never said they needed it to be top tier. But they need it to be the god tier they are currently. Is that the tier you'd want them to balance around? If no, then something would have to happen with the SC damage, otherwise it'd change nothing. You'd still have a Sam self SCing for more than any other DD could hope to bring.

[Prothescar]

SAM doesn't need SCs though, Fudo is strong enough to stand on its own in addition to Namas Arrow for slashing resistant mobs. SCs should be a tactical tool, not a primary damage tool. It's one of the biggest issues with this entire thing.

[Byrthnoth]

A couple of things happened almost simultaneously:
1) SAM WS damage got buffed. -- WS damage is obviously a huge part of SAM's DPS.
2) Mythics became much more obtainable thanks to the Alexandrite farming glitch (which still isn't completely fixed). -- Kogas everywhere, and Koga is substantially better than Tsuru.
3) Skillchain patch -- Unresistable skillchains + single most skillchain-oriented job in the game = obvious DPS boost
4) There are multiple reasons to prefer 1 DD to 3. -- AoE status moves are easier to remove with 1 target, Overwhelm works all the time, no skillchain interruptions, etc.


The issue is that Tsuru SAMs are good, but they "every other mythic DD"-tier. Koga SAMs are another 25% beyond that, because one of SAM's major deficits as a job is its lack of multi-attack (hence Soboro being a 50-75 weapon option) and the job has no problem generating 300 TP at will. You could probably nerf SAM WS damage by ~20% and that would bring Tsuru SAMs back in line with where they should probably be, but Koga SAMs would still be the best DD in the game.

I don't think point #4 is really going to ever go away above. It's a new strategic outgrowth of the skillchain patch. Now that skillchains have the potential to be hugely important or potentially a 10% DPS boost spread out across the entire party, there's an obvious benefit to having one person handle all of the skillchain coordination.

[Malithar]

SCs should be a tactical tool, not a primary damage tool. It's one of the biggest issues with this entire thing.

Agree 110%. But atm, it is a primary damage tool, and it's what sets them apart so much from everyone else, in my experience. Then again, since the changes, I haven't really seen much in action other than Mnks and Sams to be fair.

[KetSC]

p.s. those BST things are nice. New tiger and ladybug can be interesting, low expectations for snapweed and fly. Free jug ability is sweet, as is the change to Ready.

New Ladybug? Dipper will always be my one and my only Ladybug.

Anyway, yeah I agree nerfing is probably the right thing to do at this point.

They could do a few quick fixes easily. Nerf Overwhelm, nerf GKT weapon skill damage, etc. I don't think they should nerf store TP or any of the TP mechanics in case people like that style of play (where basically every auto-attack is a weapon skill). They can just bring the numbers down and keep the style the same.

Though if they do this, it really nerfs the non Mythic and non Tsurumaru SAMs (what if I want to use my relic guys?).

They could also probably easily just lower the base DMG of the SAM mythic and Tsurumaru if those weapons are the main cause of the problem.

Seems like a couple of quick and easy fixes. I mean, it's not like they need to do a total job revamp.

With damage dealers, toning down the numbers usually doesn't cause any other problems with any other areas of the game (so it is much easier compared to trying to balance tanks for example).

One thing that FFXI always lacked is proper balance. Matsui, I do love what he has brought to FFXI but FFXI still lacks balance (I mean the DW change for example still kept off hand STR to Attack at 50% instead of 75% - DWs still aren't as great).

[Sechs]

So, focusing just on the SC part of the issue (which is not the only source of the current problems), from what you guys have said we can list the following problems

1) Multistep SC, even if underestimated by a lot of people, is way too strong
2) Magic Burst doesn't offer enough for magic users (in terms of damage boost and no -enmity at all)
3) Using a WS other than the "right" ones, interrupts the flow of SCs, making jobs relying on such WSs very undesired
4) SCs have become too big of a source of damage atm


1) can be solved by eliminating the multistep bonus completely. I think they should do it if they don't plan to revert the SC change (I hope they won't. Even if the numbers are currently unbalanced, I like the fact that SCs actually do matter now)
2) many ideas have been said already. They should think about it. Wouldn't change much but it would be apreciated
3) this could be solved in two ways: giving better SC properties to such WSs (I don't see this happening), making so such WSs do not interrupt the flow of SCs (so Fudo > something > Fudo will still make the second Fudo SC with the first one)
4) This is hard to solve without nerfing SC damage, making them useless again and I wouldn't like it. Maybe they could put a "cooldown" on SCs? Not sure if this would be even possible with their technology, but it could be a nice idea to nerf the SC damage on the course of a full battle, without nerfing the damage of a single SC (making so they retain their current importance/utility)

[Hitou]

Nerfing SAM base damage or WS damage isn't going to stop it from spamming WS for massive SC damage. SE will either need to roll back the SC resistance changes, since apparently this update didn't affect any job but SAM, or remove the SC multipliers for multi-step SC, since single or double light isn't really that huge of a boost in damage compared to when SC could be resisted. Koga and Tsuru already have way lower based damage than most other 2hand weapons and other 119 GKT for that matter. Unless you mean to nerf it down to like 50 base damage it won't change anything.

[Ophannus]

Multi step skillchains performed by one person should deal reduced damage. Magic burst damage needs to be greatly increased and reduced enmity. Let's not junp on the skillchain bandwagon though where it becomes reauired of every DD like crits in Abyssea though.

SE needs to learn to nip things in the bud before they get exploited. They let Hakuryu bots make trillions of gil for years before nerfing their price, the damage was done and people were butt hurt because if it was deemed problematic, why not stop it years ago? Everyone knew it was happening, even GM's. They let penta spam happen for like 2 years before nerfing and RNG spam was going on for 3 years. SE has a habit of nerfin things far long after the player base abuses it and by that time their preferences are already warped. They should have made an emergency patch within 24 hours of the skillchain patch when people were doing 22k lights off of 8k WS under the notion of "Under certain circumstances, Skillchain Damage is higher than intended".

Other MMOs and games, jobs and characters get nerfed when they're too strong because its impossible to balance everyone around the stronger job without now having to adjust content. And when adjusting more than 1 job at a time, you have to monitor the balance slowly. If they just dropped widescale buffs to every job to arbitrarily put them at SAM's level, it becomes carelessly easy to accidentally go overboard and say make WAR too powerful. Then what? Rebalance 12 jobs all over again around WAR@/ newfound strength? Then after the second wave, MNK becomes the strongest, then rebalance everything around MNK again?

If you ignore SAM for a moment, all other DD's in tems of damage output(ignore things like utility/survival/damage mitigation) is relatively similar. Like of course WAR is likely still stronger than DNC or whathaveyou, but the range of dps between the strongest dd and weakest dd is much much much much much more narrow when SAM is removed. SAM is such a statistical outlier that they skew the dps balance between all jobs so heavily that all other jobs might as well be the same dps and their differences become negligible.

If they beat down SAM so its dps falls in line with the other DD jobs, it becomes so much easier to fine-tune the other jobs. Sure people will still pick what they deam as the strongest but in actuality, dps between all the DD jobs is more homogeneous now than it ever was. And the difference between the new dps king after SAM won't be as far ahead as everyone relative to how it is now. A second round of fine-tuned WS readjustments are in order. Weaken fudo slightly due to SAM's TP gain. All extra TP gained from meditate after it's initial duration should have diminishing returns. Like if the initial duration of meditate for SAM is 200TP/5 ticks for 1000 TP with bo gear, any gear that enhances meditate duration should give a fraction of the TP beyond the base duration. Getting like 3000 TP from meditate is kind of ridiculous on a job that already gets too much TP and already has the strongest weapon skills. SE needs to decide, if SAM gets the highest TP gain, then they cannot have thr strongest weapon skills. If they give them the strongest weapon skills and the fastest TP gain, they shouldn't have huge skillchains or a wide range of skillchain properties, because then where do you fit drk war drg into the mix? Make them specialize in white damage? Sure but only if we're hitting for 4-5x harder than a SAM does, since they ws about 2-3x faster and about. 1-2x harder with 2-3x more sc damage.

[Ophannus]

Also what's the deal with giving SAM shit like Tsusumaru? They nerfed Save TP for a reason yet they're slowly giving it back to SAM with Tsusumaru and Ionis. It would have been comparable to other delve weapons if it was 15 save tp. No other delve weapon is as broken as tsusumaru. Maybe giving it less dmg, 228 skill and 12 save tp would nerf the gimp tsusmaru SAMs, giving the ridic dmg to koga SAMs only?

[Sechs]

giving the ridic dmg to koga SAMs only?

Personally I take the same stance Kincard exposed a while ago concerning this.
If something is broken... it's broken. There shouldn't be exceptions allowed.
It's only right that harder-to-obtain weapons perform better, but saying that only Tsuru sams should be "nerfed" is very wrong, imho. If a nerf has to come, it has to be on the job, not on Tsurumaru.