Dev Tracker: Discussion

[dasva]

SE needs to learn to nip things in the bud before they get exploited. They let Hakuryu bots make trillions of gil for years before nerfing their price, the damage was done and people were butt hurt because if it was deemed problematic, why not stop it years ago? .

Well I think part of this was it was ridiculously slow. A trillion gil would've taken 500,000 days of fishing and was somewhat limited by bait. And well there was bigger fish to fry. Cruor back in the day... (well I don't think cruor every stopped being faster than fishing just not fast enough for the people for whom fishing was way too slow) and heck people were making alex in a single run that was worth how much it you would've gotten in a month of 24/7 fishing lol. And well now there is the general sentiment of what is the point of fishing if hardly any of it has an ah market and even then that is limited and takes hours to make a few thousand gil

[geno3302]

Incoming 25k Flaming Crush > 25k Light SC \o/

I wonder how high the crit rate and DA on favors are going to go now

[dasva]

Also what's the deal with giving SAM shit like Tsusumaru? They nerfed Save TP for a reason yet they're slowly giving it back to SAM with Tsusumaru and Ionis. It would have been comparable to other delve weapons if it was 15 save tp. No other delve weapon is as broken as tsusumaru. Maybe giving it less dmg, 228 skill and 12 save tp would nerf the gimp tsusmaru SAMs, giving the ridic dmg to koga SAMs only?

While I do think save tp is strong and Tsu is a rather nice weapon if we are already have pts with 5 support characters to one DD I'm curious why aren't people using misers again? With that any DD can get up to 42.5 save tp in SoA and I'm sure others could make decent skillchains.


Side note I think boosting magic burst could do a lot if they do enough. Would discourage multistepping (well mostly though some might just try to get a bigger epeen since stage effects dmg while trying to get some T1s inbetween). Thinking something on the order of flooring resistance AND offering huge potency bonuses. Like no -dts/+mdb while MBing while having huge buff to +dmg. But also something to debuffs. Say double potency and/or duration for lvl 1 skillchain scaling up to level 3. Would potential make debuffs useful again too

[ccl]

A big issue is our tp gain too, they should keep sc dmg as is but nerf tp gain to a point where we would need 2 dd to be able to ALWAYS multi step sc outside of specific JA. I assume if they raise ilvl we won't see another tsurumaru.

[Rooney]

Sam definitely needs nerfed. As it stands it's top in WS dmg, WS frequency, SC options, SC dmg, self-skillchaining, etc. The one area it sucks at is white dmg.

I would suggest having each DD job specialize in one area. War for raw WS dmg, drk for zerging, mnk for white dmg, drg for ws frequency, sam for SCs, rng for staying out of aoe, thf for enmity control (if they ever fix enmity), blu for flexibility, etc.

This would unfortunately require tweaks to a couple jobs besides sam, but most would be relatively unchanged.

War - should be fine
drk - remove SE resistance from everything, make absorbs non-resistable (?)
mnk - fine
drg - split jump timers
rng - remove decoy shot
sam - remove save TP, lower/change mods on all gkt ws, increase sc dmg bonus traits
thf - add a decoy shot/caper emissarius like ability: specify a party member and divert (not transfer) the party's hate to them for a short duration, also add a longer cooldown ability to remove a portion of a party member's cumulative enmity
blu - fine
bst - let jugs land their debuffs (some of them are quite strong)
smn - change wards to be alliance-wide, keep favor party only
dnc - I think would have to go to more of a support role. Split all the waltz timers, lower recasts, lower tp costs, increase step duration, lower recast a bit. I know people want it to be a DD, I just don't see how it's going to happen with the JA delay.
Pup - no idea

Some ideas, too much to do all at once though. Not to mention spaghetti code would probably break a thousand other things.

[Byrthnoth]

A big issue is our tp gain too, they should keep sc dmg as is but nerf tp gain to a point where we would need 2 dd to be able to ALWAYS multi step sc outside of specific JA. I assume if they raise ilvl we won't see another tsurumaru.

They should have released the WS damage patch (Increase WS damage) and Skillchain patch (increase skillchain damage) and the TP/hit patch (decrease TP/hit) simultaneously. Then skillchains and party coordination become more important, we spend less time locked in forced delay because we've just WSed, and we wouldn't have gotten the massive DPS boost that made everything lolcontent.

[Lyramion]

sam - remove save TP

- Save TP on Tsutsumaru now 10 minute enchant !

[dasva]

rng - remove decoy shot.

You'd have to seriously buff rng and probably fix enmity in order to remove decoy shot. Decoy is the one and only reason people bring rng to things. And I'm talking like eliminating distance penalties and completely eliminating the extra delays not effected by snapshot/weapon delay and adding some kind of repeat shoot function

[stamos]

Pup - no idea

Pup has so many things wrong with it. The puppet is generally a hindrance on dps, dies on anything with aoe. The only puppet semi viable to bring is the whm puppet.

[ccl]

There is no point to fix specific job atm, till they fix the big issue the game will never be balanced/challenging(healer never run out of mp/tp gain/pld being invincible and enmity).

[Ophannus]

Actually SAM"s white damage is pretty fucking good. The only reason why it 'seems bad' is because they're WSing extremely often. You have to remember SAM gets a 12% JA Haste ability, gets 10% DA from /WAR and 15-18% DA from Hassozanshin. Then add in the other DA they get from gear and they have extremely high DA values. So it's not a 'weakness' per se, it's just that they lose a lot of swing time because SAMs are 4 hitting usually. DRGs,DRKs,WARs are all 5-6 hits and have fewer TP increasing/TP saving abilities thus have longer white damage phases.


Also I'm not a PUP scientist, but why doesn't SE just make Manuevers last 5 minutes or until overwritten, like Runes? Makes no sense that they last for only a minute each. If they lasted for 5 min each would that be detrimental? Seems like a huge loss to DPS by having to keep putting them up. Does PUP need them to wear every minute for any particular reason? Maybe they should last indefinitely until consumed or overwritten with different manuevers, kinda like Afflatus/Dark Arts/Light Arts?

[stamos]

That would increase dps a bit for the puppet, but their acc is pretty poor, and keeping them alive generally is not worth the dps loss.

[Rooney]

You'd have to seriously buff rng and probably fix enmity in order to remove decoy shot. Decoy is the one and only reason people bring rng to things. And I'm talking like eliminating distance penalties and completely eliminating the extra delays not effected by snapshot/weapon delay and adding some kind of repeat shoot function

Fix enmity yes, auto shooting yes, remove distance penalties somewhat. I'd like to see higher dmg at close range, lower dmg at far range. It gives you a risk/reward ratio. Stand on top of the mob and do great dmg, but be in range of all aoe, or stand really far away and do ok dmg with no risk of aoe.

As far as decoy shot, I think it should go away entirely or (more likely) be changed to only affect the next shot/WS. You shouldn't be able to stand entirely out of range of aoe and also have no chance of pulling hate. A "trick" shot every once in a while would be ok.

[ccl]

Sam white dmg is/was bad because:

-gkt low base dmg
-sam ddex was awfull at 99 so crit rate was shit(I do not know how it is now because white dmg doesn't matter now) and stuff we fought was level 120 so it favored crit
-no crit dmg+ trait/gear.

[NynJa]

As far as decoy shot, I think it should go away entirely or (more likely) be changed to only affect the next shot/WS. You shouldn't be able to stand entirely out of range of aoe and also have no chance of pulling hate. A "trick" shot every once in a while would be ok.

Unless you sit on your hands while decoy is down, enmity will eventually catch up to you, its inevitable.


Everyone suggesting nerfs to all SC damage is just doing to throw skillchains back to nothingness. Something that occasionally happens by fluke. If anything, nerf self-sc damage, as suggested a couple times, but they need to give more reason for people to SC in party dynamics. 30% boost on MB is pretty meh considering the amount of damage a melee will put out (or could have put out if they werent holding TP so they could MB) while the mage is making that nuke.

And nerfing old equipment is a good way to piss people off. "Oh your 500 million gil weapon? yeah were reducing it to shit. Oh, your Ochain/Daur that you spent countless hours on because of our completely random VNM system? Yeah, were reducing that to shit".

[ccl]

Nerf TP gain(enough to kill being able to self sc 100% of the time) and increase MB dmg would be a good start to kill zerg/improve party dynamic.

[Kyreth]

Let's put it this way. With a SAM that has their brain cells working, I actually go MNK/DNC on Delve...because me spending my TP on WSs actually causes lower damage to the big monsters getting multichained by a SAM, and I tend to end up Stepping/Waltzing away status/feeding the SAM HP to ease off on the healer's job. On something like Morimar Delve, I'll do the usual Matamata Formless/100 Fists dance, when we get to Tojil pop Formless again to help get past the first 25% and just save TP for support moves so I don't fuck up him skillchaining to wipe flame cloaks/kill his multipliers. Instead, I'm just on autoattack and watching the pretty fireworks while spamming destatus/heals...because a good SAM can pretty much skillchain so constantly that unless they tell you to, it's hard to predict when you have an opening to slip in your own without fucking them up.

Never mind monsters with less HP like, say Outer Rak Skirmish. Let the SAM work and you've got NMs dropping like flies, interrupt his chain-of-chains and you're just fucking your own party.

Now, if they gave teamwork bonuses that boosted multipliers if different weapons were used and lesser multipliers for single-weapon spam, that might work pretty good. Suddenly, you'd have a SAM alternating WSes with a second non-SAM, or even a third for best damage (or now, a Summon lol).

Samurai should be the grease and gasoline that keeps a good skillchain series going, not the entire damn engine.

[dasva]

Actually SAM"s white damage is pretty fucking good. The only reason why it 'seems bad' is because they're WSing extremely often. You have to remember SAM gets a 12% JA Haste ability, gets 10% DA from /WAR and 15-18% DA from Hassozanshin. Then add in the other DA they get from gear and they have extremely high DA values. So it's not a 'weakness' per se, it's just that they lose a lot of swing time because SAMs are 4 hitting usually. DRGs,DRKs,WARs are all 5-6 hits and have fewer TP increasing/TP saving abilities thus have longer white damage phases.


Also I'm not a PUP scientist, but why doesn't SE just make Manuevers last 5 minutes or until overwritten, like Runes? Makes no sense that they last for only a minute each. If they lasted for 5 min each would that be detrimental? Seems like a huge loss to DPS by having to keep putting them up. Does PUP need them to wear every minute for any particular reason? Maybe they should last indefinitely until consumed or overwritten with different manuevers, kinda like Afflatus/Dark Arts/Light Arts?

Should point out that while they do get all that... that ja haste only ends up putting them 1.25% higher than other 2hd DDs except drk when LR is up and mnks and dwers cap -delay easy. Other jobs also get decent DA values. Hassozanshin is factored last so actual increases in white dmg are minimal especially in koga sams. And other jobs have there advantages too.

Though yeah sams definitely do ws more always have. That said I given the newish cor ring and ionis boost I can see misers being useful again and could make other 2hders self skillchain. When doing reives offhanding Homestead Blade is enough for my mediocre geared blu to consistently self skillchain with no outside support. Granted it's save tp + OAT... but blu isn't really an xhit ws frequency job either.

Why SE wont change no idea. Making it like runes makes a lot more sense. Maybe it's part of there whole burden mentality but frankly burden is something that also needs to be gotten rid of. Also afflatus/arts aren't indefinite they are 2hr. Only buffs I've seen last forever is stoneskin from reives. But 2hrs is close enough

Edit: I totally forgot about the drg adjustment so drgs are capping haste as well if they /sam

[Shenrien]

Nerf TP gain(enough to kill being able to self sc 100% of the time) and increase MB dmg would be a good start to kill zerg/improve party dynamic.

Reduce all TP gain for 2h & ranged classes by a factor of 3. Round down any values that are not whole numbers after conversion (250/3 - 83.33 -> 83) and all 1h by a factor of 2.

Cut meditate & reverse flourish's potency by 70% and remove meditates diminishing return effect on sub class. Now you have combat that isn't spam the living shit out of weapon skills every 2 seconds and building a multi-chain skill chain would actually take some coordination.

[Fival]

Nerf TP gain(enough to kill being able to self sc 100% of the time) and increase MB dmg would be a good start to kill zerg/improve party dynamic.

Nerf meditate too! Its like meikyo but stronger when combined with standard tp gain at the same time, and on a 2:30 recast.