Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Draylo]

Can solo SC with Apogee too, will be interesting I guess lol.

[Toth]

The linkshell conceirge should be interesting....Could help make hard core content seekers easier to group up or at least help like-minded players to find a good shell.

[dasva]

Ideally, the 70 pacts plus E. Bite will chain with themselves to make either Light or Darkness. I could see popping Conduit and spamming T3 skillchains with accompanying merit Blood Pact magic bursts, which, if I'm remembering correctly, have a good amount of +Magic Burst Damage gear available to them.

I don't think there is such a thing as pet magic burst bonus gear... now player yeah smn has a bit so if you /sch you could throw out some nice nukes in between... though I think just repeatedly throwing out the big bps and skillchaining would be more dmg either way. Now with apogee where you only get the 2 yeah add that 1.5k nuke on the end!

[dasva]

While interesting if really limited, I don't think the linkshell concierge service is gonna be any more effective than shouting "X linkshell recruiting! No requirements! gather times blah blah blah" And then giving out pearls to anyone that replies. It'd be a good way to fill a social shell but an endgame one would be a nightmare.

Might be decent for people with limited play times who when they get on are usually out doing what they can rather than waiting on/spending time making shouts.

[Spira]

I don't think there is such a thing as pet magic burst bonus gear... now player yeah smn has a bit so if you /sch you could throw out some nice nukes in between... though I think just repeatedly throwing out the big bps and skillchaining would be more dmg either way. Now with apogee where you only get the 2 yeah add that 1.5k nuke on the end!

Summoners Bracers +2 with augment, and the Glyphic stuff. +8 MAB per merit put into that BP. Hopefully chaotic strike can make easy light.. Might make more sense to put 5 points in Meteor strike to maximize Ifrit

[dasva]

Summoners Bracers +2 with augment, and the Glyphic stuff. +8 MAB per merit put into that BP. Hopefully chaotic strike can make easy light.. Might make more sense to put 5 points in Meteor strike to maximize Ifrit

Ah my bad. 1 slot then lol. Though to be fair that isn't magic burst bonus so much as mab added to magic burst. Which makes them not much better than mab options in the slot and even then only if you have at least 4 merits into that bp.

Guess it's largely going to depend on the skillchain and mob and resistance. If you are going to need a lower level one to start then MBing probably going to be better. If you can do straight up 70 to 70 for light/dark those magic bursts will have to do dmg equivalent to at least the amount of dmg of the skillchaining bps +50% of the skillchain dmg. Which based on the new skillchain changes if you can do an element the mob is weak to and your pet ilvl isn't lower that would mean MB dmg bp would need to do 75% more dmg than the SC bps. Factor out the bonus to MBing and that would mean your merit bps need to do about 34% more dmg than your lvl 70 BP under normal conditions. Not factoring in resistances or the ability to better target weaknesses by not using merit bps. And on the other hand if SE does something silly like chaotic strike making darkness...

Wonder if multistep might be good lol. Be funny to see avatars acting like sams

[Viar]

The SC patch is an interesting mechanic that encourages more complicated play and shouldn't be reversed. If they're going to nerf SAM, WS damage is the clear way to go.

If anything it made certain WS not worth using thus making WS buff pointless.....WS buff was supposed to make older WS on par with the newer ones.

[geno3302]

If anything it made certain WS not worth using thus making WS buff pointless.....WS buff was supposed to make older WS on par with the newer ones.

You're saying you DON'T want to Fudo all the things?

[Viar]

You're saying you DON'T want to Fudo all the things?

I want to use a different WS

[NynJa]

So you're looking at it from a 1 SAM 5 Buffer standpoint, meaning yes, this is useless to you (ignoring the fact a lot of people have said you'd be better 5 steppin instead of FUDO FUDO FUDO like you're alluding to doing)

The whole point of the WS boost was so that other jobs can more reliably coordinate skillchains with each other without having to use shitty WS's. So if you have a MNK and DRG, instead of the MNK going "SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE", and the drg going "DIVER DIVER DIVER", if the DRG does Stardiver, the mnk can shijin for comparable damage with the bonus of Fusion instead of SMITE for a cumulative inferior damage due to no SC.

[Viar]

The whole point of the WS boost was so that other jobs can more reliably coordinate skillchains with each other without having to use shitty WS's. So if you have a MNK and DRG, instead of the MNK going "SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE", and the drg going "DIVER DIVER DIVER", if the DRG does Stardiver, the mnk can shijin for comparable damage with the bonus of Fusion instead of SMITE for a cumulative inferior damage due to no SC.

In the world I live in, melee party in endgame nowadays seems to has 2 pt setup only:

1)Single SAM solo SC+ support, you can't WS on another DD. If you're a DD you either go home and job change, or kill add/don't WS. These kind of party is often ls/close friend/mules.

2)PUG inviting multiple SAMs, everyone just FUDO FUDO FUDO for light, because it's 10x easier to Fudo spam(for PUG) than multi step, doing multi step SC with 3 DD is a DPS lose anyways.

While it sounds nice on paper, the scenario that DRG does Stardiver then MNK does shijin for SC, doesn't exist in pt setup 1) nor 2). The fact is, current SC system isn't working properly, because you're either soloing SC on SAM or spamming fudo with multiple SAMs, you don't get to use shijin.

[NynJa]

In the world I live in, melee party in endgame nowadays seems to has 2 pt setup only:

1)Single SAM solo SC+ support, you can't WS on another DD. If you're a DD you either go home and job change, or kill add/don't WS. These kind of party is often ls/close friend/mules.

2)PUG inviting multiple SAMs, everyone just FUDO FUDO FUDO for light, because it's 10x easier to Fudo spam(for PUG) than multi step, doing multi step SC with 3 DD is a DPS lose anyways.

While it sounds nice on paper, the scenario that DRG does Stardiver then MNK does shijin for SC, doesn't exist in pt setup 1) nor 2). The fact is, current SC system isn't working properly, because you're either soloing SC on SAM or spamming fudo with multiple SAMs, you don't get to use shijin.

1-This is a problem of SAM being OP, and people have discussed here that self SC's should get a penalty (an inverse multiplier?). This has nothing to do with the system itself, it is not broken in the sense that all jobs are exploiting it, this is a SAM is exploiting it problem.

2-You answered it yourself, and I've bolded the problem, shitty players (irony from #1, you're using sam as the reason why, which is once again, SAM being OP). Having a system not work because shitty players cant make it work doesnt make it a problem. And I've said it before, so I'm just going to quote it.

One of the problems with the SC patch is it didnt encourage full party dynamics (specifically: a greater usage for magic bursting). They've made SC's a reliable source of damage, but in the time it takes a mage to magic burst something, as I said before, any DD could have output greater damage than the MB would have done. 30% bonus was good way back when mages were MBing for 2k damage and your average melee was WSing for 1k, and probably no one else had TP to use. With an average T5 nuke doing 4-5k damage (I'm guessing), bumping that up to 5200-6500 is kinda redundant when the melee is probably already doing more than that with their WS.

If you make the SC multiplier go up (as long as its done by other people), if you raise the MB multiplier significantly (so that the damage incurred through the MB exceeds that which the melee could have done through WSing), its no longer "a dps loss".


I have also said what I'm about to say before:

If the effort of A is greater than the effort of B, and both yield similar results, same thing, no ones going to bother with A. The result of A needs to be significantly higher than the result of B if you want people to do A if theres greater effort involved (or sacrifices to someones parse).

Right now you're saying that the best results involve the least effort. Others are saying that with a little coordinated effort, you will actually get better results (multistep SCing over FUDO FUDO FUDO), but you feel this effort is too much for dumb groups, and the DPS is a loss. This is the problem that needs to be fixed.

[Hitou]

I really doubt SE's ability to code it so only self SC gets a penalty. It's not like the game can tell the difference between what player used a WS for the purpose of creating a SC. So while it's a good idea for limiting SAM SC output I don't think it would ever happen. The only other options are to revert SC changes, nerf multi-step SC bonuses, or nerf SAM so hard that even multi-step SC damage is worthless. Because the hand full of people actually using multi-step aren't going to stop until it's clearly worse than any other option. Despite constantly whining that the game is too easy, the "best" players will always use whatever option makes the game easiest.

[NynJa]

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Sengikori
If the game can determine a buff on the WS to determine enhanced SC damage or enhanced MB damage, then the game can deduce who opened the skillchain

[Hitou]

That doesn't have anything to do with self SC though. It's a buff to the WS itself. I don't think there's a way for the game to determine that you are in fact SC with yourself and not some other person. Even if it was some Nerf trait that only applied to SAM then it would effect every SC preformed by a SAM not just solo SC. While I'm sure what you're suggesting it technically possible, I don't have faith they could pull it off. Also it'd be an ass ton more work than simply Nerfing SAM itself, buffing other jobs, or doing roll backs.

[Byrthnoth]

The point was:
Sengikori -> WS -(Sengi wears off)-> WS -> Boosted skillchain damage

The buff is gone and the skillchain doesn't need to be closed by the JA user. So they're transferring information about the opening WS through to the skillchain damage step. They don't necessarily need to know who does it, but it's not like there's no precedence for them to retain information about the opening WS, which contradicts what you said three posts up.

[NynJa]

^- gracias
The code is there to retain information within the ws of certain properties. It already exists and at this point its a matter of adding a flag, not about adding a whole new section of code.

[Hitou]

I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't add extra data to WS. Maybe I misspoke earlier. I kinda doubt that kind of data is already there though. I don't claim to know much about coding or how this game is coded. Sekgikori effects SC closed by any one not just the SAM that opened it, unless I'm totally mistaken. I'm just kinda stumped how the game would be able to check if a SAM is only doing a SC with him/herself. It'd be easy to nerf all SC created by SAM but I think it'd be a bit harder for only solo SC. And wasn't the whole premise for "nerf SAM" that it was easier than bringing other jobs up? If I'm wrong, cool. It's a good idea, even if SE probably wouldn't go for it.

[Viar]

1-This is a problem of SAM being OP, and people have discussed here that self SC's should get a penalty (an inverse multiplier?). This has nothing to do with the system itself, it is not broken in the sense that all jobs are exploiting it, this is a SAM is exploiting it problem.

Yes it is a design flaw, the original concept of SC is to have 2 or more players time their weapon skill for greater damage. If the concept of SC is working as intended, you can never have one person solo SC, regardless of the job you're using.

This is more than SAM being OP, if you let a different job solo SC, it's still a design flaw.

2-You answered it yourself, and I've bolded the problem, shitty players (irony from #1, you're using sam as the reason why, which is once again, SAM being OP). Having a system not work because shitty players cant make it work doesnt make it a problem. And I've said it before, so I'm just going to quote it.

You missed the part after that bolded sentence. It's still a DPS lose to coordinate SC when you have 3 DD in a party, because you can't WS right after previous WS for the SC to work.

With right buffs I can solo SC endlessly by myself since I gain TP faster than my WS animation, if I have to wait for another DD to do their WS, I'd ended up WS at 1500~2000 TP. If I have to wait for 2 DD to do their WS, by the time it's my turn again I'd be sitting at over 2000 TP or probably even 3000. Never mind the fact that there could be human error involved in this process.

We have already concluded that for the most WS, it's a DPS lose to hold TP over 1000, so it's a lot more feasible to spam WS at 1000 TP for lv3 skillchains, instead of taking risks and WS at 3000 TP.

This isn't entirely PUG/shitty player issue, the concept of SC doesn't have good synergy in this game nowadays because we gain TP too fast. I know everyone misses it and wants it back, but it's not happening unless we gain TP half as fast.

[Damane]

Yes it is a design flaw, the original concept of SC is to have 2 or more players time their weapon skill for greater damage. If the concept of SC is working as intended, you can never have one person solo SC, regardless of the job you're using.

This is more than SAM being OP, if you let a different job solo SC, it's still a design flaw.




You missed the part after that bolded sentence. It's still a DPS lose to coordinate SC when you have 3 DD in a party, because you can't WS right after previous WS for the SC to work.

With right buffs I can solo SC endlessly by myself since I gain TP faster than my WS animation, if I have to wait for another DD to do their WS, I'd ended up WS at 1500~2000 TP. If I have to wait for 2 DD to do their WS, by the time it's my turn again I'd be sitting at over 2000 TP or probably even 3000. Never mind the fact that there could be human error involved in this process.

We have already concluded that for the most WS, it's a DPS lose to hold TP over 1000, so it's a lot more feasible to spam WS at 1000 TP for lv3 skillchains, instead of taking risks and WS at 3000 TP.

This isn't entirely PUG/shitty player issue, the concept of SC doesn't have good synergy in this game nowadays because we gain TP too fast. I know everyone misses it and wants it back, but it's not happening unless we gain TP half as fast.

its not about missing SC and MB, its about building some form of team-effort play instead of buffing the shit out of one DD via GEO BRD COR and then just whale away. Team-effort should substantionally do more Damage then a buffed up solo DD SCing all over the place.