Dev Tracker: Discussion

[NynJa]

stuff

Everything you've said here has to do with SAM being OP and the main problem with the SC changes has nothing to do with the changes and everything to do with SAM.

[NynJa]

Sekgikori effects SC closed by any one not just the SAM that opened it, unless I'm totally mistaken.

This is irrelevant though to the topic at hand. The point is, there are information retaining flags already, and adding one to have an inverse multiplier for self-scing shouldnt be too difficult.

[arus2001]

Sometimes I just think people get too butthurt about what is or isn't possible because SE has proven to be fucktarded in the past. I'm more the type to believe the only thing stopping anything from being implemented is effort and the willingness to apply it.

[The Assman]

Wrong thread.

[Damane]

Sometimes I just think people get too butthurt about what is or isn't possible because SE has proven to be fucktarded in the past. I'm more the type to believe the only thing stopping anything from being implemented is effort and the willingness to apply it.

i think they have lost the overview and prolly dont know how the base script of the game works. Makeing SCs blatantly unresisted was the easy way out, considering they have no fucking clue how to fix the broken blu spells and various ws add effects.

[ccl]

I don't see how they could fix it at this point, if they nerf stuff people will get mad and quit again; if they don't nerf stuff, game can't really be challenging anymore.

[NynJa]

I don't see how they could fix it at this point, if they nerf stuff people will get mad and quit again; if they don't nerf stuff, game can't really be challenging anymore.

We've mentioned like 3-4 times ways to fix it without nerfing across the board.

[ccl]

We've mentioned like 3-4 times ways to fix it without nerfing across the board.

I mean the game overall, not just sc dmg; between healers unlimited mp, tp gain speed, stun lock everything, pld being invincible etc

[NynJa]

I mean the game overall, not just sc dmg; between healers unlimited mp, tp gain speed, stun lock everything, pld being invincible etc

1-Gjalla + Daur/Terp = 21mp/tick ballad. Crooner's + Daur/Terp = 12mp/tick ballad. That alone is a huge reason for "unlimited mp". And thats not including other sources of refresh.
2-TP Gain Speed...well if SE broke haste, a lot of people would bitch.
3-Most NM's these days come immune to stun
4-So the tank job with almost no offensive upside is invincible. Tell me again how many people use pld for fights that have been figured out?

[ccl]

1) So it's not an issue because it's only an issue with an item almost every decent brd have ? Should we talk about curaga being almost free due to orison pant for whm?
2)Yup but can nerf tp gain w/o nerfing haste.
3)Delve I, Everything in Incursion, Stellar would all have been awesome with stun immunity.

4) Are you serious ? Between AA/DM, Avatar, Delve 1 before geo/stun bot were easy to get; I shouldn't be allowed to afk tank cause I have ochain on and 50% dt. You can argue the issue is decoy shot+rng but no, pld is an issue too since you can tank everything with run too, but can't be afk while doing it.

[dasva]

4) Are you serious ? Between AA/DM, Avatar, Delve 1 before geo/stun bot were easy to get; I shouldn't be allowed to afk tank cause I have ochain on and 50% dt. You can argue the issue is decoy shot+rng but no, pld is an issue too since you can tank everything with run too, but can't be afk while doing it.

There is no way you are keeping hate for too long afk especially on harder stuff even with relic rngs that never shoot without decoy up (good job making the slowest kill strategy even slower while keeping the highest specialty requirements for the pt)... and non relic rangers and shooting without decoy up is going to be even faster. And forget avatars with hate resets and huge magic dmgs in there too. And let us not forget that on higher level stuff Epeolatry prevents more dmg afk than ochain does

[NynJa]

1-so the problem is Gjalla's "all songs +4", ok
3-Delve II, avatar's, etc.
4-How are pld's tanking afk exactly? Do you rng's just stop shooting if decoys down? Thats a very speedy strat there. Whos using PLD for AA? Whos using PLD for Delve I? Right, no one, why using a tank with no offensive upside when you can just use a DD to tank.

[ccl]

@Nynja: ok nvm the game is just fine and perfectly balanced beside sam dmg.

@Dasva: ok, afk is a big word I admit it but spamming flash while tabbed watching steam/fb is pretty much the same for and yes I have done it on decent AA kill time. And who care about avatar dmg when there ea+scherzo+aegis. With run I have fun casting shadow at least(still working on Epeo but losing interest atm )

[NynJa]

So you use the slower, easier route, then complain about the lack of difficulty. You openly admit to using stun bots in Delve, and then complain about lack of stun immunity.

"I'm such a great player, I'm so bored with the ease of this game, all I use is ochain pld and decoy rng's, this game is so easy". I mean, seriously, lol.

[dasva]

@Dasva: ok, afk is a big word I admit it but spamming flash while tabbed watching steam/fb is pretty much the same for and yes I have done it on decent AA kill time. And who care about avatar dmg when there ea+scherzo+aegis. With run I have fun casting shadow at least(still working on Epeo but losing interest atm )

You can do that on RUN too. Or you can on a melee except replace flash with ws and replace the rngs with support.

As far as avatar dmg the problem with that argument is ea/scherzo works on everyone and aegis completely takes away from your ochain argument. Sure you can put an aegis on but your physical dmg reduction goes to shit to achieve a magical reduction that is about the same as RUN and all RUN has to do is hit a maccro every 3 minutes so that is basically afk as well.

As far as run physical I wasn't even talking about externals like shadows. I meant pure reduction from epeo vs ochain assuming capped pdt and shield skills on high level enemies afk epeo wins. RUN parrying also puts things on their side. Going to less afk I'd reckon utsesmi spam and reprisal spams sorta even out between the 2 jobs except on aoe spammy mobs. On the other hand better magic reduction with the physical for RUN.

[ccl]

Ok my run isn't good enough yet to do it, but you make the game sounds even worse to me lol, I'll see if I ever finish Epeo!

[Capuchin]

It's ridiculous to assume availability of Ergon weapons (at a cost of 400-500mil in H-P Bayld, not to mention the 100% Legend Rank gating) when discussing how good a particular job is at its role. Yes, an Epeolatry is great for the one or two (max) RUNs per server who may have the thing, but that can't be the standard we use to balance content/jobs. Especially because most rational people who might decide they want to invest in RME to tank are gonna just grab an Aegis for FAR cheaper and get a job that the community is much more comfortable with.

It's also a wild exaggeration to say that RUN tanks stuff with equal ease as a PLD. On 90%+ of content where a tank strategy is viable, it's going to take an absolutely top of their game RUN to match an average PLD (yes, there are a small handful of exceptions where magical damage mitigation is important enough that RUN really shines: Shadow Lord and Avatar high tier fights come to mind).

I have a competently geared RUN with a very solid non-Ergon tanking build: JSE weapon, PDT-55% set (D.Ring, the works), know how to use my JAs and subjobs, etc. I like to think I'm not a total idiot, and in all the other jobs I play I perform on a level expected of an endgame player of that job. Not bragging, but I'd rank myself comfortably above average in capability in any of the jobs I play. And let me tell you, it's a struggle to replace a PLD on some of these fights that are being dismissed here as trivial. For example, Difficult AA HM/EV/MR are a serious threat, and while they can be done by a good RUN it's probably a higher chance of failure than just bringing a decent PLD and getting a fairly easy win. I'm not saying RUN can't tank things, I know it can and I have to practically beg people to let me show them. But I'd be lying if I said RUN was equal to PLD, it's simply way easier (and more comfortable for others) to use a PLD in the vast majority of tank-required situations.

Oh, and it's like pulling teeth to get people to let you come RUN instead of using a PLD instead. And if the fight fails for any reason, even if not the RUN's fault, I guarantee they're gonna blame the loss on not having a PLD. PLD dies to Cloudsplitter>Cloudsplitter>Darkness without Scherzo up, well, shit happens and the backline shoulda been better. Same thing happens with RUN: "we can't do this fight without a PLD". RUN actually needs a demonstrable advantage to convince the community to use it, Ergon weapon RUN being somewhat in the same league as an Aegis PLD is not enough for most people to even give it a chance.

[NynJa]

PLD dies to Cloudsplitter>Cloudsplitter>Darkness without Scherzo up

Just saying
Unless the pld isnt swapping to Aegis (considering CS>CS+Dark is what will kill you in this fight), Scherzo wont save you since its two separate attacks that are cumulatively going to 1shot, and scherzo wont bail you out on that.

[dasva]

I'm just comparing legendary gear with legendary gear. Yeah for right now ergon is harder than ochain but a lot of the current availability of RUN has to do with the newness of it. Besides I was just saying that the job can do better easier than pld not how well geared they'd have to be. Should add that ergon RUN isn't in the same league as aegis pld. All RUNs are in the same league as aegis pld what gives pld the lead is the ability to use things like ochain/priwen for physical. Ergon puts RUN into the league of ochain pld and on a mixed dmg mob in the league of a good ochain/aegis pld that is good at switching between the 2

[Capuchin]

Just saying
Unless the pld isnt swapping to Aegis (considering CS>CS+Dark is what will kill you in this fight), Scherzo wont save you since its two separate attacks that are cumulatively going to 1shot, and scherzo wont bail you out on that.

Fair enough, you're right on that. Point remains though. PLD ends up dying on a CS>CS>Darkness, people don't say PLD is incapable of tanking the fight. RUN dies on it, it's not a viable tank (to some extent this is community closed-mindedness and narrowly following the accepted strats, but to some extent there's some truth in it being more challenging to tank stuff on RUN). This is a substantial problem for the job.

I'm just comparing legendary gear with legendary gear. Yeah for right now ergon is harder than ochain but a lot of the current availability of RUN has to do with the newness of it. Besides I was just saying that the job can do better easier than pld not how well geared they'd have to be. Should add that ergon RUN isn't in the same league as aegis pld. All RUNs are in the same league as aegis pld what gives pld the lead is the ability to use things like ochain/priwen for physical. Ergon puts RUN into the league of ochain pld and on a mixed dmg mob in the league of a good ochain/aegis pld that is good at switching between the 2

I don't think it's fair to compare Ergon gear with RME. It's too much of a higher hurdle to create the items, for little incentive. How many people actually made an Ergon? I know it's not a definitive list, but FFXIAH.com shows a grand total of 4 people (3 GEO, 1 RUN) who aren't Damane who made an Ergon weapon. Compare that to over 1300 listed for each of Aegis or Ochain 99....

How exactly do you think a new and not as generally accepted job is going to become popular over time, in fairly small community invested in their existing jobs? There are gonna have to be STRONG advantages to using it to get people to give it a shot.

GEO Ergon is WTFamazing and probably overpowered, and even then it's not exactly flooding the servers. RUN is worse off, Ergon GS is damn good but basically just puts it on par with the reigning incumbent tank, in a game where situations that actually call for a dedicated tank are relatively uncommon. Why would people start clamoring for RUN in the first place? They aren't going to unless it gets broken-level buffs. Just pulling even with the standard bearer is not incentive to create change. Maybe if HP Bayld became way cheaper and we were talking under 200mil to make the weapon it becomes a little more popular. Even then though, it's an exotic way to do the same thing a PLD already does. MDT tank is obviously not good enough reason to switch, if it was people wouldn't be happily doing Avatar high level fights with PLD/RUN with no issue. RUN needs something more.