Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Malithar]

Oforums gonna have even more of a shit storm once this hits. Been a few weeks since someone's made a new topic complaining about CP gains as is.

Kinda mixed on it myself. The whole point behind job points was to put points into specific categories that buffed your JAs, traits, or useful stats to your job. Why not just add new categories with the JTs or whatever instead of this? This is just going to create further grind by making us put points into categories that are deemed not useful enough in order to get a tier of wtfever they add.

Always that concern that they end up adding something deemed mandatory as well, that ends up making a job incredibly less useful until it's unlocked. Maybe it's just such silly small boosts that it's not even worth having it's own category and they just wanted to add a small reward for dedicating enough time to maxing them out. I'd be okay with that, but then I'd question what's the point to it, I'd just prefer more categories to keep coming.

[Sechs]

Why not just add new categories with the JTs or whatever instead of this?

I think I know why.
Because most people for most jobs say "Meh these JPs suck, given how much of a hassle it is to get them, I'll just upgrade this category and this, fuck the rest".
It's true for a lot of JPs for a lot of jobs, most suck with some decent exception and some even more rare pretty good option.
I'm talking about the current situation of course, not the "potential" some of those categories have at 30/30.

Now you could reply to me: "Yes, but if that's the case they could just change those JPs and make them more useful/powerful".
But they don't want to do that because:
1) It would be too much of wasted time/effort to individually fix them one by one
2) They don't want (didn't want?) JPs to become too powerful. They have to be like the carrot on a stick to make people spend time in FFXI doing something repetitive and grindy. If they become too useful they'll soon become mandatory and they don't want that.

(sadly, I'm afraid that risky threshold has been passed already, or is very close to being trespassed)
Given the premise of these 2 points, which is probably what they have in mind, they thought of a new system to make all JPs attractive.
Yes, this and this and this suck, but if you cap them you get some cool thing in this Job Trait and this other one.

It'll be something to aim for for completitionists, and they sure hope it will give further motivations to all the people who didn't bother to max categories beyond those interesting (I know I decided to spread JPs among my jobs capping only what I deemed useful, instead of capping everything regardless)



This is my view on their reasons for making this new JP thing, at least.

[Byrthnoth]

On one hand, I look forward to benefiting more from the job points I've already spent. On the other hand, I wonder if I'll be unwilling to take up new jobs due to this.

If they keep making events that give CP, that's great... but it doesn't help the jobs that aren't requested for such events.

Increasing the importance of Job Points could also create a system like this:
* JobA sucks without Job Points
* JobA is pretty good with Job Points
* No one wants to take you to events or capacity point parties because you lack Job Points
* You can't get Job Points unless you solo them, but if you grind them out then you can do events

[Sechs]

They are trying to avoid that by keeping JPs very secondary and small bonuses which hardly matter.
But they didn't succeed in doing to so for all of them, and things will get worse once (if?) they unlock the cap up to 30 upgrades per category (which btw, would be quite an insane amount of grind if they go on requiring 11>12>13>...>30 JPs for each upgrade)

As I said, that's the threshold they don't want to trespass but I'm afraid it's already on the way to that direction, and it's a train they can't stop anymore.

[Damane]

maybe they will add totally new job traits on the jp system that are affected by the total amount of JP spent.
another possibility is that the points enhance SJ traits wooo

[Viar]

Oforums gonna have even more of a shit storm once this hits. Been a few weeks since someone's made a new topic complaining about CP gains as is.

Maybe it's because after incursion/incursion back piece introduced CP gain is not an issue anymore.

[Malithar]

Maybe it's because after incursion/incursion back piece introduced CP gain is not an issue anymore.

If it involves getting something from "endgame content" it may as well not exist as far as those forums are concerned.

[Sechs]

Maybe it's because after incursion/incursion back piece introduced CP gain is not an issue anymore.

Please allow me to dissent.
We have pretty different definitions of the word "issue".
The cape is godsent and Incursion is really nice to farm CP (even just runs focusing on trash, to avoid overcrowding in normal areas) but it's not the definitive solution.
Especially once you start doing MB runs (enter > fight MB > exit) you don't fight a high amount of trash, the amount of CP you get in return is nice but nothing stellar.
And don't forget that you'll hardly ever see some jobs in Incursion, good luck farming CPs for those? But hey you can solo! I know! It's so much fun! Everybody loves to spend 200+ Hours of their time to cap JPs on a single job (with the current caps) playing solo and doing the same exact repetitive thing throughout all those hours. Can't wait to get back home from work to do that!
Also the cape was the lamest idea they could come out with.
Why forcing me to keep an item equipped, locking the back status, granting me inventory+1, when they could have simply increased CP rates by 50% for everyone?
(on a side note, I'm still stuck with a 43% bonus one, still haven't seen a 50%)

maybe they will add totally new job traits on the jp system that are affected by the total amount of JP spent.
another possibility is that the points enhance SJ traits wooo

Not sure how you think such an idea could work, unless I misunderstood you, in which case I apologize.
Did you mean to boost JTs on a certain job and make those boosts work when you equip that job as SJ too?
That would be easy to do, but it would be against their concept of JPs being a boost for your main job. It would become a boost to another job thanks to equipping a specific subjob. It's exactely the opposite of what they want to do so I don't get how you think they would do that.

If you meant boosting to traits you get from subjob (like dunno, BRD getting a boost in Dual Wield if it subs /NIN) I'm not sure how you can see this technically possible.
SE always refused to take a position as to "which" subjob every main job should use. It's us players who obviously did.
Them boosting some traits rather than others would kinda be as if they took an official stance on that, and it's pretty clear to me they want to avoid that.

In a similar fashion I'm confident they want to avoid merit JTs because it would make people "forced" to take some merits, killing their "freedom of choice". Stupid approach maybe, but it's always been their approach so far it's at least very unlikely of them to suddenly change now.

[Viar]

We have pretty different definitions of the word "issue".
The cape is godsent and Incursion is really nice to farm CP (even just runs focusing on trash, to avoid overcrowding in normal areas) but it's not the definitive solution.
Especially once you start doing MB runs (enter > fight MB > exit) you don't fight a high amount of trash, the amount of CP you get in return is nice but nothing stellar.
And don't forget that you'll hardly ever see some jobs in Incursion, good luck farming CPs for those? But hey you can solo! I know! It's so much fun! Everybody loves to spend 200+ Hours of their time to cap JPs on a single job (with the current caps) playing solo and doing the same exact repetitive thing throughout all those hours. Can't wait to get back home from work to do that!
Also the cape was the lamest idea they could come out with.
Why forcing me to keep an item equipped, locking the back status, granting me inventory+1, when they could have simply increased CP rates by 50% for everyone?
(on a side note, I'm still stuck with a 43% bonus one, still haven't seen a 50%)

Well, I don't quite agree with "solo is bad and boring". I don't play a lot on weekdays, so I can't really participate in group content most of the time. Besides solo for CP and farm dynamis/salvage for gil I can't think of anything else to do.

Personally I'd rather farm CP instead of farm gil and afterglow my weapons.

With capacity rings on my current solo rate is about 80k/hr with 43% bonus backpiece, that makes it 126hr of work to cap all 6 category. It's still a lot of time, but those 126 hr is not 126hr straight.....I usually do it when there's no shout going on and no friend/lsmate available to do group content with. If I can't farm CP then I'd just stand in town and afk for 126hr anyways.

Not to mention double CP campaign makes CP farm faster.....160k/hr!

I also liked the fact that I can adjust my pace when I solo, I don't need to sit in front of PC for 2hr straight making a pt and doing multiple runs. I can log on and play for 20 min, log off and do something else then come back later.

[Sechs]

I don't agree with "solo is bad and boring" either to be fair, I like to solo in some situations like those you mentioned and more.
200+ hrs (and I'm being very optimistic here!) of solo to cap the CURRENT categories of a single job is way beyond that though, and yes, I find it excessively grindy, boring, tedious and gives rise to a very unfriendly effort:reward ratio.
Let's not even start how things would be if they raised the caps keeping the current CP/hr ratios.


1) Effort/Reward ratio is too steep
2) There's a lack of good camps
3) It's okayish for some jobs atm, it's very very bad for many others


Again, forcing you to "//gs disable back" to make those rates better was a very stupid idea. If they thought ratios were too low they should have simply increased it, period.
I'd like to know in which camp and on which job and with which subjob and with which trust you get 80k/hr though.
Please tell me it's not a Mage job.

[Ophannus]

Since CP isn't reduced with lvl difference, when they raise ilvl, we'll be able to solo harder mobs which grant more CP, so like that's what, 700+ from a 125 worm solo? Also they may expand Incursion later since 65% capes are in the dats. Even if they don't Incursion makea a pretty sweet instanced capacity point farming zone, and when they raise the level cap, it should be solo able or low man-able.

Like I said, some jobs get really sweet traits, most get crap. It's going to be hard to justify giving SAM/DRK/WAR more DA/Crit/Store TP, while giving DRGs, BRDs, SMNs, resist traits, crit defense bonus and killer traits.

Top Tier
SAM: Zanshin, Store TP, Skillchain bonus
DRK: Stalwart Soul, Attack Bonus, Crit Bonus, Desperate Blows(not a merit ability anymore!)
WAR: Max HP Boost, Attack Bonus, Crit Bonus, Double Attack
THF: Dual Wield, Critical Attack Bonus, Triple Attack
RNG: True Shot, Dead Aim, Accuracy Bonus
MNK: Martial Arts, Counter, Kick Attacks, Skillchain Bonus, Max HP Boost

Meh Tier
DRG: Critical Defense Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, Dragon Killer, Conserve TP
BST: Stout Servant, Killers, Fencer, Resist Slow
GEO: Clear Mind, Max MP Boost, Conserve MP

Crap Tier
COR: Resist Paralyze, Resist Amnesia, Rapid Shot
BRD: Resist Silence, Critical Defense Bonus, Fencer
SMN: Clear Mind, Resist Slow, Max MP Boost

[dasva]

Since CP isn't reduced with lvl difference, when they raise ilvl, we'll be able to solo harder mobs which grant more CP, so like that's what, 700+ from a 125 worm solo? Also they may expand Incursion later since 65% capes are in the dats. Even if they don't Incursion makea a pretty sweet instanced capacity point farming zone, and when they raise the level cap, it should be solo able or low man-able.

But ilvl diff does reduce it which will most likely just lead to an even bigger gap between rate gains between mages and melees at least in pt settings

[arus2001]

Yeah, CP gain is just kinda like ToAU meriting all over again. Great if you're in the in-crowd, but piss off and enjoy table scraps elsewhere if you're not. Overall, the system runs counter to the job class system. Sure, it panders to those who want to be a "main" and feel distinguished over those who dabble in other jobs, but I'm not sure if that "benefit" is functionally gimping yourself (or others) who diversify. And it'll only get worse as they up caps and possibly add more categories. "Small bonuses" now, perhaps, but how about when we hit that point where people start treating it like wearing HQ everything and all those +1s adding up?

At the very least, up the rate of acquisition. Yeah, yeah, some of you guys are fine with the current, but some people like Justin Bieber, too.

[Byrthnoth]

ToAU meriting was only exclusive job-wise, as far as I remember. I used to invite anyone that was on a job that I needed.

On Lakshmi, NA job point parties formed using /sea just don't happen. You'll get someone shouting for people for a job point party maybe once a month at most.

[Damane]

Since CP isn't reduced with lvl difference, when they raise ilvl, we'll be able to solo harder mobs which grant more CP, so like that's what, 700+ from a 125 worm solo? Also they may expand Incursion later since 65% capes are in the dats. Even if they don't Incursion makea a pretty sweet instanced capacity point farming zone, and when they raise the level cap, it should be solo able or low man-able.

Like I said, some jobs get really sweet traits, most get crap. It's going to be hard to justify giving SAM/DRK/WAR more DA/Crit/Store TP, while giving DRGs, BRDs, SMNs, resist traits, crit defense bonus and killer traits.

Top Tier
SAM: Zanshin, Store TP, Skillchain bonus
DRK: Stalwart Soul, Attack Bonus, Crit Bonus, Desperate Blows(not a merit ability anymore!)
WAR: Max HP Boost, Attack Bonus, Crit Bonus, Double Attack
THF: Dual Wield, Critical Attack Bonus, Triple Attack
RNG: True Shot, Dead Aim, Accuracy Bonus
MNK: Martial Arts, Counter, Kick Attacks, Skillchain Bonus, Max HP Boost

Meh Tier
DRG: Critical Defense Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, Dragon Killer, Conserve TP
BST: Stout Servant, Killers, Fencer, Resist Slow
GEO: Clear Mind, Max MP Boost, Conserve MP

Crap Tier
COR: Resist Paralyze, Resist Amnesia, Rapid Shot
BRD: Resist Silence, Critical Defense Bonus, Fencer
SMN: Clear Mind, Resist Slow, Max MP Boost

again they might add to each job an exclusiv job trait on the job point menu, that is enhanced by total amount of JP spent on that job. for example SAM might get Resist Silence as a Job trait on the JP board, the totall amount of JP spent in the overall category affects the Job Trait. Might maybe also be new totally non existen job traits.

[Priran]

SAM might get Resist Silence

i think you mean Quintuple Attack

[Kincard]

I never minded that most JPs were marginal upgrades (Except Blue Magic Points, what a stupid idea) because the amount of grinding needed is absurd. I have 0 confidence anything good will come of this total JP spent thing, especially if its going to be based off something as lopsided as what job traits/abilities all the jobs already have. I sure look forward to improved Killer effects on BST and Magic Burst Bonus on NIN.

If they want to balance the game it should come with those monthly patches they're doing.

[Sechs]

ToAU meriting was only exclusive job-wise, as far as I remember. I used to invite anyone that was on a job that I needed.

On Lakshmi, NA job point parties formed using /sea just don't happen. You'll get someone shouting for people for a job point party maybe once a month at most.

Asura is the highest populated servers and you hardly ever see shouts. When you do they're usually either failures or just do not manage to even start.
I know I tried a good while, even with LS mates, to create good CP pts even during the 2x Week.
90% just don't seem to want to bother.
The only people who bother are those who bot night & day (many of which let me leech afk in-zone, and for that I'm really grateful)

It's just like Byrth said, it's way worse than ToAU merits. It might have taken a while for you to get a spot on some lame jobs, but it DID happen and there were a lot of XP shouts and pts looking.
Hell, I managed to find PTs regularly on PUP. ON PUP. Yes let me type it again: P U P. You guys remember how much PUP sucked back then?
Nowadays PUP is nowhere as bad as it was back then. Let's see how long it takes before you get a CP party today. /rolleyes


@Kincard
Doubt the purpose of this addition is to balance the game.
They're just trying to make the JP system more attractive.
They've been trying for how long now, without any major rehaul/change to the system?
How long until they give up and accept the fact that something big has to be made to make the system more interesting and especially with more human-like effort/reward ratios?

[Malithar]

especially with more human-like effort/reward ratios?

Don't think that's possible to fix. Either they make them so bad overall that no one, even botters, care, or they make them so good that everyone cares, parties are made that make progress, and botters do what they do, or the middle ground, sorta where it's at now. Any system that relies on killing near infinite non-challenging mobs to grind items and/or points is easily able to be abused. The only fix would be to crack down on the act to add a layer of fear, but I don't think they care enough to bother anymore.

[Damane]

Don't think that's possible to fix. Either they make them so bad overall that no one, even botters, care, or they make them so good that everyone cares, parties are made that make progress, and botters do what they do, or the middle ground, sorta where it's at now. Any system that relies on killing near infinite non-challenging mobs to grind items and/or points is easily able to be abused. The only fix would be to crack down on the act to add a layer of fear, but I don't think they care enough to bother anymore.

I just think that nooen is willing to grind for an endless amount of time on mobs even if the boost on ability/traits is awesome. Its just boring.