Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Prothescar]

posted this elsewhere, but i feel it's a good point that hasnt been touched on here yet



what (almost) everyone seems to be missing is this is just the beginning. sure, 50 isnt a lot. what about next time? there will be an SU2, maybe a 3. a 4. a 5. those wont cost 50. they'll cost over 100 based on what we have already. is that still not a lot of time invested?

"oh but you can do it between now and then stop whining!"

ok. let me go do that for every job I want to play just so I can progress gearwise with them and feel like im not wasting my time being subbed to the game that I barely play anyway. let me just take what little free time I possess, throw it at killing rabbits, and then finally wear that body armor I spent my time getting. that'll sure show those casuals.

[Sechs]

Very good point Prothescar. It's absolutely true.
But this comes under the premise that the rates will stay as they are or won't change much.

Am I too naive to expect SE to not being blind fools for once and do something SERIOUS (no small, convoluted tweaks) about the CP/JP accessibility and gain rates?




Edit:
Even without the SU1 gear thing, we would have got to the "JPs are mandatory" point either way sooner or later. People have been saying this from day one. New and better categories with the cap of 30 would have pretty much made JPs mandatory, period.
This is even worse of course because it gates you behind not being able to equip gear, and it's very very sudden and earlier than most people predicted in the above point, but the result is the same.
JPs have become mandatory, and henceforth all the points "But JPs are just marginal/insignificant things! Who cares if they're insane grind!" become completely invalid.

[fantasticdan]

It is a terrible idea because a lot of people play this game casually now. Like, they will log in and spend the three days after each update that it takes to cap out on the most recent event, but after that they just log in to do events.

Telling those people to go farm 50 job points on every job that they intend to play and then cap out on new content seems like a stretch. It is not just 50 job points, which might take 10 hours in a party. For someone with 6 jobs it is 300 job points, or 60 hours of boring grinding in a game they hardly play anymore. I do not foresee a good outcome.

This. Think of the options SE are giving people:

A) Spend absurd amounts of your life grinding completely mindless and unfun garbage in a dead, broken game. Than multiply that by however many jobs you ever want to play.

B) Be gimp in said dead, broken game (and potentially be excluded from participating in future content) but continue to pay a monthly fee to barely play it.

C) Bot CP/JP.

D) Quit.

It's hard to see how people in A could ever outnumber D without significant changes, or in other words, how the CP/JP system isn't completely detrimental to both SE/FFXI and what's left of its playerbase.

[Prothescar]

Am I too naive to expect SE to not being blind fools for once and do something SERIOUS (no small, convoluted tweaks) about the CP/JP accessibility and gain rates

Given the cp cape and small bonus from this gift system being their current "solutions", my hopes are small

[PSOfanatic]

They should of just added more merits to the game rather than a whole new system. I understand that they don't want people to max out every job in 5 days and want to add variety but the problem is the playerbase demands SPECIFIC jobs to even be allowed in JP farm parties - that or botting. Let's just make all JP into merit points.

30,000 for 1 JP is RIDICULOUS. That shit just goes completely beyond me. The fact that there are players that capped it out goes beyond me. You guys are masochists to the extreme. Grind grind grind. Keep adding more and more shit that isn't fun that forces people to waste time doing stuff they don't want to. Doing CP parties are boring and take no mental capacity - which is why people bot it.

The whole game is a grind. The thing is you have to make it a fun and enjoyable grind (They do exist).

[Damane]

They should of just added more merits to the game rather than a whole new system. I understand that they don't want people to max out every job in 5 days and want to add variety but the problem is the playerbase demands SPECIFIC jobs to even be allowed in JP farm parties - that or botting. Let's just make all JP into merit points.

30,000 for 1 JP is RIDICULOUS. That shit just goes completely beyond me. The fact that there are players that capped it out goes beyond me. You guys are masochists to the extreme. Grind grind grind. Keep adding more and more shit that isn't fun that forces people to waste time doing stuff they don't want to. Doing CP parties are boring and take no mental capacity - which is why people bot it.

The whole game is a grind. The thing is you have to make it a fun and enjoyable grind (They do exist).

you really think people with capped CP did that legit, fulltime being on their monitors? lol

[Toth]

I really like the idea of gifts but yeah, the excessive grind does kill a lot of enthusiasm for the system.

[Seha]

In simple words: fuck this.

[Sechs]

They should of just added more merits to the game rather than a whole new system.

No.
Or rather yes I agree with that, but I meant to say that I think I know why they didn't go this route.
They think that the XP/hr rates are too high. I'm sure we can all agree with this.
They didn't want to nerf it so they kinda tried a reverse psychology thing by creating something new with much lower hourly rates.
They probably thought that that way people wouldn't have gone completely emo because "OMG YOU NERFED MY ABYSSEA/VOIDWATCH/WHATEVER XP! GUNNAQUIT!!!1!one!"

It's kinda the same approach when a single job is utterly overpowered, but instead of nerfing it, to avoid people's cries, you buff everything else.
People love buffs, people hate nerfs.

In theory it's all good and nice, but in reality it doesn't always work that way, and when you buff everything else more often than not you break something, and either way it's much more unefficient work than just having the balls to nerf that job and SAY IT CLEARLY AND BLUNTLY so that people can understand and agree why you're doing it, instead of hiding behind generic, vague sentences that look like those a politician would say.


I think the same exact thing happened here.
They wanted to create further player growth (good point), they wanted to make it so it wouldn't have been as trivial as merit points so that people is capped everywhere after 2 days (good point), they tried to achieve so with a new convoluted system full of limits, constraints, unfriendly aspects generating the punishing system known as Job Points.


Here is what happened.
I can understand why they went this route, it does make sense, but they created several mistakes and they're under everybody's eyes.

30,000 for 1 JP is RIDICULOUS.

I don't think the ridiculous part is the 30k CP for 1 JP.
The ridiculous part is the amount of CP you get for each kill, the sorry attempts they did to indirectly boost it (mantle, rings) and the plethora of limitations/punishments they imbued into the system to furtherly limit the amount of cp/hr you can get.
All of this is the ridiculous part, not the "30k CP = 1 JP" one

[geno3302]

I wonder if they actually mean upgrades not job points. It takes 55 job points to cap 1 category and we have 6 categories. Would be strange if capping just two got you all the gifts. Then again job points suck to get and it would mean SE is going to add 4 new categories per job next update so maybe not

[Ophannus]

The reason why its 30k CP for 1JP is because unlike merits, JP are permanent(cannot be removed) and can be fully upgraded; merits have to be chosen and they cannot all be maxed out. It also gives a longterm goal. Additionally more CP will be gained as they raise the ilvl cap because unlike limit points, capacity points increase linearly depending on mob level. When ilvl is raised to 123-124 and ilvl 128 mobs in Woh Gates become soloable, you'll be getting like 1600CP per kill solo. Stark difference from the 300-400 from an ilvl 114 mob.

[Sechs]

geno Should correct that to "all gifts for now". They said multiple times they plan to add more in the future and that this batch would have focused on job traits stuff



@ophannus
Cp scale with level of mob, but it also scales with your average ilevel.
Furthermore the addition of su1gear means that, if anything, they don't really plan raise gear iilevel cap anytime soon

[Malithar]

you really think people with capped CP did that legit, fulltime being on their monitors? lol

Just to play devil's advocate, I did. 60/60 and 110/200 atm. But that's more from annoying the hell out of friends to meripo in Gates areas for BCs instead of doing VW or Aby early into JPs introduction, more Incursion then I'd like to admit, and always having a +50% cape and ring active during CP gaining events.

Even with that in mind, I agree with what's being said because all of that took care of one job. The others? They're going to essentially be behind the curve once Superior hits, until I bother to grind them up.

Cp scale with level of mob, but it also scales with your average ilevel.

Only exp scales with your average ilvl in relation to the mobs, or in relation to the party, I forget tbh since lolexp. But CPs are mosty certainly based solely on the lvl of the mob, with bonuses possibly added in such as Incursion NMs.

[Spira]

The reason why its 30k CP for 1JP is because unlike merits, JP are permanent(cannot be removed) and can be fully upgraded; merits have to be chosen and they cannot all be maxed out. It also gives a longterm goal. Additionally more CP will be gained as they raise the ilvl cap because unlike limit points, capacity points increase linearly depending on mob level. When ilvl is raised to 123-124 and ilvl 128 mobs in Woh Gates become soloable, you'll be getting like 1600CP per kill solo. Stark difference from the 300-400 from an ilvl 114 mob.

i get the impression they intend to leave the cap at 119 for the rest of SoA..?
the whole Su1 seems to support the idea.. its 119, but also not accessible to those who didn't grind points.. so its gated in some way..

i think it'd be great if they allowed CP to be gained even in a more casual sense. sure it'd take longer, but people can do it at their own pace. the current system seems to force you down a certain content path.. which is ideal for SoA, except that participation across jobs is not.. and many jobs have difficulty farming CP, am i right?

[Fwahm]

I wonder if they actually mean upgrades not job points. It takes 55 job points to cap 1 category and we have 6 categories. Would be strange if capping just two got you all the gifts. Then again job points suck to get and it would mean SE is going to add 4 new categories per job next update so maybe not

It says job points, we only have 6 categories per job, and there's no mention of more categories this patch. I think it's pretty safe to say it's not upgrades.

[Ophannus]

The only annoying thing about cp/jp in my eyes is that its diffult to gain points on jobs that people dont want for cp parties. I only ever see people shouting for whm and geo brd cors, nobody wants a smn or bst or pup. Incursion is better because its a bit more casual(pre 127, can take basically any job and make a crapton of cp).

Also they should adjust incursion so you can trade like 200 or 300 nq coffers for one boss nq coffer. At least then people could spam weaker incursion casually with random jobs, make a ton of cp/exp and then also trade their crap coffers for an extra chance at capes from nm coffers. I'd gladly trade 300 coffers for a tryl coffer(since i alreaady have my 50% cp cape)

[dasva]

I love how on a lot of jobs there is little reason to go past su1. Like war for example gets to CP increases yay for getting them after you already farmed tons and then macc and fencer upgrades lol. Just crappy enough to discourage anyone from doing them that wasn't already going to but just enough of a see they gave us something so the idiots that do farm them more will tell us we should've when they release higher tier gifts that are good

Yay for bst only getting 1 single gift that effects their pets and a rather mediocre one at that

[Damane]

i get the impression they intend to leave the cap at 119 for the rest of SoA..?
the whole Su1 seems to support the idea.. its 119, but also not accessible to those who didn't grind points.. so its gated in some way..

i think it'd be great if they allowed CP to be gained even in a more casual sense. sure it'd take longer, but people can do it at their own pace. the current system seems to force you down a certain content path.. which is ideal for SoA, except that participation across jobs is not.. and many jobs have difficulty farming CP, am i right?

the superior Idea is still dumb, for any returning player its an auto block path to anything concerning superior gear and will demotivate them instantly. not to mention that finding people for stuff that drops superior gear will be fucked too, because yeah why go get gear you cant even equip?!

[dasva]

But CPs are mosty certainly based solely on the lvl of the mob, with bonuses possibly added in such as Incursion NMs.

Party ilvl difference counts too for whatever dumb reason they decided to do that. So mages end up having to either take a hit or instead of idling in their normal refresh/pdt stuff a lot of which isn't ilvl idle in highest ilvl gear they have just for ilvls sake

[dannyl]

What a terrible idea on the Gifts. Especially the LAST gift being an additional 5% bonus on cap pts. Why not have made the last gift be something that you actually care about, not something that you needed to get there in the first place. Probably for future expansion on this failed idea.