Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Kanriel]

One of the reasons I've terminated my subscription - again - until something worthwhile to do comes out. I've caught up with all the content in less than a month after taking a break for almost 6 months prior. Really like this game, but there's really not much left to do for an old dog like me.

This is true for every MMO ever, though. I mean, I guess with raid lockouts and replacing full sets of gear every 3-4 months it might take longer sometimes, but I really don't consider that the same game as FFXI. MMO's still only have a certain amount of playability in them.

Also, it sounds really entitled for people to be bashing how content is coming out when they're doing monthly updates now. It used to be 4-6 updates a year, and there could be updates that hardly add any content still. I mean I get their point a bit but it just seems like they expect too much.

[arus2001]

Eh, whether it's monthly or every 3-4 months doesn't matter. What does is what comes during those times. Ideally, if in a longer cycle, more robust events should arise, while shorter ones tend to yield more shallow content like Mog Garden stuff or whatever. Perfect world, I prefer things comes as they're ready, be it 1 week, 1 month, or 3 months after a patch. Yet, I wouldn't exactly call someone entitled if they feel unhappy with what's been put out. Catching up is great and all if you do have people available to help or happen to play at a good peak time, but there are a lot under the casual umbrella who still struggle or just outright write off certain content not because they wouldn't like to participate, but because the over-arching time required when multiplied against personal factors just isn't smart.

Right now it feels like SE is too afraid to really put out better gear. Avoiding the whole side-grade debate, not even that's achieved if garbage is being put out like a lot of the Unity or Su1 items.

[Kanriel]

Eh, whether it's monthly or every 3-4 months doesn't matter. What does is what comes during those times. Ideally, if in a longer cycle, more robust events should arise, while shorter ones tend to yield more shallow content like Mog Garden stuff or whatever. Perfect world, I prefer things comes as they're ready, be it 1 week, 1 month, or 3 months after a patch. Yet, I wouldn't exactly call someone entitled if they feel unhappy with what's been put out. Catching up is great and all if you do have people available to help or happen to play at a good peak time, but there are a lot under the casual umbrella who still struggle or just outright write off certain content not because they wouldn't like to participate, but because the over-arching time required when multiplied against personal factors just isn't smart.

Right now it feels like SE is too afraid to really put out better gear. Avoiding the whole side-grade debate, not even that's achieved if garbage is being put out like a lot of the Unity or Su1 items.

Well, I'm thinking they brought out the hard fights too early. Delve is pretty much the top content and it would likely piss people off to put in better gear in easier content. So they kind of capped themselves there, which was a mistake. Delve should not have come out so early, IMO. And there should likely be better rewards for VD fights, maybe some drops exclusive to them (and this is coming from someone who hasn't done any VD content aside from SKC's). And maybe should've done +1 and +2 with AF/Relic reforges, because being able to reforge those pieces to 119 make all the pre-119 items they're putting in a bit useless. I'm hoping they have learned from this, and will have a better idea for how to advance things at endgame for the next whatever we do. I'm not sure if they had planned on ilvl at all from the start, so planning for that would change things...

[fantasticdan]

Catching up is great and all if you do have people available to help or happen to play at a good peak time, but there are a lot under the casual umbrella who still struggle or just outright write off certain content not because they wouldn't like to participate, but because the over-arching time required when multiplied against personal factors just isn't smart.

What kind of time required? I've been subscribed for a grand total of two months since SoA launched, and I've cleared everything in it (and gotten most of the useful gears) besides battlefields on VD setting, and the last batch of missions + incursion which I haven't even resubscribed to attempt. And that's exclusively doing stuff in pickup groups or solo with a pretty casual play time. The most time consuming thing by far was simply shouting/waiting for members to do content, not the content itself.

The only time sinks SoA really has are job points and ergon weapons now that I think about it, unless you want to count monstrosity.

[Ophannus]

I'm surprised they released 119 content so early. I feel like unity is an excuse to rehash old gear from 75 era with ilvl stats. We got vermillion cloak, scorpion harness, speed belt, etc. not long before we get sky and CoP unity, ilvl sky l, ilvl byakko haidate, ilvl osode, etc. hopefully they split the gear up so its not just mnk war sam nin getting it all.

[dasva]

I hope we can augment ilvl sky gear with ilvl augments!

[geno3302]

If they're going to rehash all the old gear I hope they remember that pet jobs exist and stick some pet stats on them this time.

[Malithar]

Also, it sounds really entitled for people to be bashing how content is coming out when they're doing monthly updates now. It used to be 4-6 updates a year, and there could be updates that hardly add any content still. I mean I get their point a bit but it just seems like they expect too much.

Entitled is kind of a strong word for it. For the most part, I've loved their move to monthly updates. But for the first year of it, we had 2-3 months, sometimes only one month, between major content releases. Delve > Skirmish 2 > Skirmish 3 (or Delve 2? they were nearly back to back) > Delve 2 > Alluvion Rala/Cirdas > Incursion/WoE 2.0. In-between all that, we had high tier mission BCs plopped in to keep us busy.

But Incursion was what, 3-4 months ago? And now we're looking at possibly going another 2 months before Alluvion Yorcia. I'm sure they've got more things in their pocket that are planned that just aren't ready to come out yet, but still. The content pace has accustomed us to at least getting new things to do. Our last "new" thing to do besides Wanted NMs was the Avatar fights 3 updates ago. We're now on our 2nd update in a row of only Wanted NMs. It's created a content stagnation that's honestly just made the game a bore for a period of time. FWIW, I love the concept of Wanted NMs. However, it's the type of content that they can add 4-6ish NMs to each update, while bringing more things. When Wanted is the highlight battle content of an update, it's not going to be a good month.

[arus2001]

The most time consuming thing by far was simply shouting/waiting for members to do content, not the content itself.

This is it, mainly. If you're an off-peak player on an odd job, the only real choice one has is to prep a more in-demand job and gearing that so you can then gear the one you'd rather play later... which means even more time shouting/grinding. However, if your session is only three hours and you spend 2 of that shouting and getting nowhere, you're in for a long ride when it finally comes time to farm plasm, arlixirs, etc.. There's also the general concept that the older content gets, the harder it is to do if there are party requirements. Trusts may alleviate this a little, but in some cases it's either not enough or too late.

To some extent, yeah, I'll agree SE released Adoulin events way out of order, should've abandoned RMEs, and some other controversial topics that bringing up won't really change. I'd love to see them do more with job rebalancing and all that jazz, too. Of course, wanting "more" seems to be common beef with any MMO these days, and I say that as someone who can't commit to raid schedules and all that due to RL which effectively cuts off huge chunks of progression. The MMO smartass might tell me such games aren't for me, but I'll disagree with the added caveat that stuff like pets and vanity systems don't do anything for me, either. "For the casuals!" is the label those things usually get.

[KetSC]

What kind of time required? I've been subscribed for a grand total of two months since SoA launched, and I've cleared everything in it (and gotten most of the useful gears) besides battlefields on VD setting, and the last batch of missions + incursion which I haven't even resubscribed to attempt. And that's exclusively doing stuff in pickup groups or solo with a pretty casual play time. The most time consuming thing by far was simply shouting/waiting for members to do content, not the content itself.

The only time sinks SoA really has are job points and ergon weapons now that I think about it, unless you want to count monstrosity.

Two months is pretty good content for any MMO.

FFXIV - You can clear literally everything (starting from scratch) in 2 weeks. One week to level to 50 and get gear. Then another week of doing raids. Yes, you can literally clear everything worth doing in just 2 weeks.

And FFXIV's problem is going to continue in the future unless they take the FFXI route. FFXIV doesn't really add anything new, even the expansion looks underwhelming (it looks like it's going to be the same 3 dungeons for daily roulettes, one primal, and 4 10 minute boss battles as all of the content for FFXIV in the expansion too).

WoW (WoD) - Almost the same thing (Mythic is also well done too, as last I checked, US guilds still haven't cleared WoD's mythic starter raid and it's been days since EU and SEA finished it already). Of course if you are into organized end game, WoW is the go to MMO for end game raids

Spoiler: show

(and also the raids don't simply consist of a few different "move there" or "move here" mechanics - You actually have to pay attention to ability usage, buffs and debuffs on other players, and where other players are in WoW unlike FFXIV).

The problem with WoW is that while they do add new things (Timeless Isle in MoP, etc) Blizzard keeps starting from scratch again every new expansion. That means most of the extras from previous expansions are obsoleted or aren't worth doing.

FFXI is still easily one of the best MMOs in terms of content. For one thing, FFXI tries to keep every single content relevant and updated. Sure you can get 119 gear (one set) easily but if you want to really min/max or if you like to collect items, then FFXI has a ton going for it. Or if you want to try out crazy builds or customize your character like build a dual axe warrior, there's also potential too.

Spoiler: show

Unlike FFXIV which has no customization at all aside from Accuracy melded DPS/Healer Scholar or MND Melded DPS/Healer SMN for those times where you want to go one healer but still need extra heals but don't want to go two healers, so hybrid SCH or SMN can fill in those roles.

Now, some people may look at MMOs differently but FFXI is comparable to like Diablo series (for example). People like to play Diablo series to collect loot (And in Diablo II when Runewords came out, it was about making the greatest Runewords so you can use Barbarian's Whirlwind on an Assassin or teleport on everyone with Enigma). FFXI, it has a ton of stuff to collect. Plus, FFXI has a few builds too (trying to build a Great Sword Warrior or a Dual Axe Warrior for example), so there's some customization and variety.

Sure you can get 119 gear and complete most of the content but FFXI still has a lot of stuff to do just for fun compared to every other MMO. There's lots of stuff to do that progresses your character in FFXI compared to WoW and FFXIV.

The only MMO that is worth playing (that has a solid player base, WoW is back up to 10 million subs) is WoW but that's only for raiding.

Personally I play MMOs for the RPG content more so than the competitive content (if I wanted to play a competitive game, I'd play an RTS or a fighting game or whatever but not an MMO). So that's why I really appreciate all the items you can try to get in FFXI (R/M/E included - They are like the Legendaries or Uniques of FFXI - Taking them away is like taking away uniques / rune words / legendaries from the Diablo series). (Plus R/M/E is balanced - Skirmish gear can compete just as well with Relic and Empyrean for most jobs. Only Mythic really wins but even then, that's not always the case.)

I do agree FFXI could use some more. Compared to early 2014, late 2014 has been really slow. I said before but I think quick easy fixes to give FFXI more content:

Spoiler: show

1. Voidwatch - Adoulin Edition.
2. New 4th ultimate weapons involving High Purity Baylds!
3. Upgraded version of WKR (that is random like WoE). Return of 12-36 hour Yumcax battles! Maybe make it even more epic.
4. ZNM - Adoulin Edition.
5. Dynamis - Adoulin Edition.
There's lots of stuff they can copy and paste and update it.

I say the only MMO worth it (that i know of) is probably WoW but Blizzard makes silly decisions at times. I dislike WoD for ability pruning (sure most abilities they removed are fine but there are a lot of abilities that really killed it).

I do consider WoW more closer to FFXI than FFXIV though.

Spoiler: show

It has actual customization. Classes aren't locked to one role (FFXIV does have SCH and SMN as the only exceptions but it requires melding a ton of accuracy materia for SCH, and for SMN MND materia).

11 classes and 34 different specialization (specs are basically their own classes since the differences between certain specs are bigger than the difference between some jobs in FFXI). Many different weapons and skills to use too. Actual dual wielding too.

Of course, it kind of varies what type of MMO you are looking for.

WoW is the go to MMO if you want organized end game content. WoW is still probably the best non-action based RPG ever (Not just as an MMO but as an RPG, I say WoW is the best in terms of gameplay ever). WoW is also back up to 10 million subs (it is not a dying game and still doing well).

Content wise, I say FFXI is superior. No silly RNG drops (if there is anything with RNG, you still get points, currency, paper, or whatever for your effort). Variety of content (FFXI always try to make new content unlike WoW and FFXIV which basically use the "3 dungeons, a few boss battles, rinse and repeat" formula).
A variety of ways to progress. Variety of ways to get to 119.
FFXI destroys almost every other MMO and even every RPG period in terms of content. I like customization, mixing and matching, R/M/Es (Ragnarok Warrior for fun), etc.

I am not denying that FFXI is in a slow spot right now. But when I play some other MMO, I miss a lot with FFXI. The content progression I say is probably the best in FFXI. No gating (no weekly caps or no "you played too much, it's time for you to log off now because you capped your currencies and fought all bosses already;Come back next week). Variety of ways to progress.

The most time consuming thing by far was simply shouting/waiting for members to do content, not the content itself.

This is literally all MMOs ever with group content. FFXIV is even worse than this. FFXIV 1 hour queues as a DPS or taking like hours to try to find a tank. Playing FFXIV is also like playing WarCraft 3 DotA or something before they implemented banlists (takes like 10 minutes waiting in a lobby, then 10 minutes to load the map, then 5 minutes in some guy leaves before anything happens). Like one person leaves in a party in FFXIV then the rest also leave too. At least in FFXI and WoW, I can count on people staying for a long time when they join a party.

tl;dr:

Spoiler: show

1. FFXI beats every other MMO in terms of content. Lots of variety (not just the same dungeons over and over). Lots of ways to gear up (which is fun). Kind of like trying to find gear in Diablo (lots of variety). Lots of customization and unique items too (R/M/E). Balanced well with actual end game gear. Name me one other MMO with as much content as FFXI (that doesn't have pointless gating like "you played enough already;come back next week to do more).

2. WoW is probably the best if you are looking for end game content. Unlike FFXIV which takes a year just to have 12 "10 minute boss battles", WoW has like 3x as much raids in that time period. WoW already has like a starter raid (with 7 bosses) and that doesn't even count as one raid tier either (there will be another tier with the normal 14 bosses early next year and another one at least before WoD completes which makes around 35 end game bosses).

I'm kind of surprised how the forums are divided. FFXIV is getting tons of praise (even though it only has 2 weeks worth of content and simplified gameplay that makes WoW's LFR look genius) in their section. FFXI is getting a lot of negativity (not that it doesn't have any merit but the FFXI section is probably the most negative out of all the sections on BG). WoW section is a ghost town.

[D44kpunk]

you're comparing getting the BiS gear on WoW to getting the BiS gear on FFXI? if so FFXI takes vastly less time..

if you're comparing overall content, WoW still has way more due to achievements/mounts/endless old content. FFXI is in a slow spot because SE is putting no money into it

[Spira]

Its probably not fair to compare it that way anymore either.
SE has to put its MMO eggs into 2 baskets.. and considering how XIV is both newer, prettier and more popular (in terms of subscription base) by now, it makes sense that more resources are channeled into that.

WoW is Blizzards only MMO, and because of the sheer economies of scale that it reaps, they honestly don't need a new MMO any time soon, even if numbers are falling (tho i hear they''re developing it). And so they can afford to put everything in just this one for now.

Also, I suppose the corporate strategy comes into play as well.
Blizzard isn't know for being a prolific game developer. Square Enix however has earned a reputation of milking its franchises. The development of their other AAA games is a big consideration as well.

[arus2001]

Put me in the camp that hates SE regurgitating content in XI. Or as some would describe it, keeping it relevant. :/

For example, if they do some kind of ilvl Abyssea thing in the future for Emp gear, don't just slap level 120+ mobs into the old Abyssea zones. Pick an Adoulin area and give it the Abyssea treatment, fine, but don't make us waste time in places we finished up with years ago. In that vein, the "clean slate" approach other games take with their expansions winds up holding a bit more appeal just because you know today isn't day 500 in a CoP Dynamis zone.

[Kyte]

FFXIV - You can clear literally everything (starting from scratch) in 2 weeks. One week to level to 50 and get gear. Then another week of doing raids. Yes, you can literally clear everything worth doing in just 2 weeks.

(even though it only has 2 weeks worth of content

That's terrible comparison. You can't judge one game's content based on how fast you get to the level cap and get 1 set of passable gear, and then judge FFXI on its content as a whole.


That said, I agree that FFXI's charm comes from its horizontal growth and that's something FFXIV can never really have.

[Darkmagi]

Also, if you're going the route of "Beating the game" ffxi is easily a week or less. If you actually had help and grinded, you could have a well geared 119 char with all missions in as few days as jp midnights required.

[Prothescar]

lol @ being able to cap XIV raid gear in a two weeks (I can pretty much promise that you won't be beating Coil with 2 weeks worth of gear and experience, let alone somehow bypassing restrictions and getting every piece of BiS 130 gear and a Dreadwyrm weapon in 2 weeks), then somehow trying to compare it to XI when they're completely different systems. The reason you can cap a character in a week in XI is because the content is ridiculously simple to master and has extremely forgiving loot obtainment methods. The only exceptions are perfect/higher tier capes out of Incursion or perfect augments for Skirmish gear due to gil requirement and random number generator, but if you have someone to feed you gil or something you can bypass the Skirmish issue. R/M/E/E also require time, though an empyrean or relic are limited only by money (in the case of a relic, waiting for the goblin to finish making the weapon which requires you to do nothing). Time it takes to complete an ergon or mythic is relatively comparable to a relic in XIV though.

None of the other games you're trying to compare to have these same qualities.

[Dotsudoku]

I was going to interject, too, but I feared his three page response

You can remark upon something that XI had gotten(i.e. no longer) very right without dumping a bucket of hyperbole on XIV

[Sechs]

lol @ being able to cap XIV raid gear in a two weeks
[cut]

You can if you played, say, WoW to competitive levels for long amounts of time and find an already existing guild with friends etc.
But that's a pretty extreme situation and it's not particularly different from being booste in FFXI.
So while theoreticlaly possible, I have to agree with you if we're talking about "realistically" here.

Time it takes to complete an ergon or mythic is relatively comparable to a relic in XIV though.

I greatly disagree here, altough it's hard to compare because of how different the systems are.
I got multiple nexus and I found them much easier for an average player compared to Ergon/Mythics/Empys in FFXI that require you to grind a lot and/or have lots of friends and/or being able to make large amounts of gil. Something that statistically only a minority of people can do, period.
Not that the majority of people can complete Novus/Nexus/Zodiac either, but I find them a much more "reachable" goal for an average player.
They're slow only because of gating systems and RNGs, they do not require god knows what.
I find there's harder stuff to achieve in FFXIV than getting those weapons.

It's hard to get an objective perspective here on these boards concerning FFXI stuff. Everything is either super easy or, rarely, hard. There's hardly half-measures, everything is black or white, period, and people tend to minimize the effort required by some things (which clearly got incredibly reduced over the years, but it's still an unreachable goal for quite a large amount of players, to this day)

Take me, I don't know if you could define me an average player, I'm certainly not an elite, but I'm not a noob either.
Without exploiting the Delve1>2 passage (I had huge amounts of plasm after Delve1, and got KIs soon after Delve2 hit, I sold stuff I was paying 300k Plasm for over 10 mils. The first days for almost 20 mils each) I would have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER completed a Mythic or my level 99 Empyrean.
Took me long enough to solo farm a Relic (several months of solo farming).
Yet a guy like me with little time and little patience for grinding manage to obtain multiple weapons in FFXIV without asking anybody for help or without having to farm gil for months.
It surely was quite an effort, but it didn't left me stressed and strained like the FFXI counterparts did.

I feel it's a feeling shared by many other people.
How many times have you seen people complete a very hard achievement in FFXI and then quit the game shortly after because they burned out? I don't see this happening in FFXIV. Well people DO quit, but for other reasons.

[Prothescar]

You can't cap out your character in raid gear in 2 weeks. period. full stop. it is not physically possible to do so. you can have all the WoW raiding experience your heart desires, but you won't do it. even beating t1-13 for a fresh player is extremely questionable, but if they have unparalleled MMO experience and take time off their jobs to play the game 18hrs a day to practice each turn then sure, I guess.

----------------------



What's hard about making a mythic weapon? You can solo the entire thing, all it requires is time. A comparable level of time to a fully upgraded Zodiac weapon unless you already have alexandrites and shit saved up for Novus. Of course there's harder things to achieve than a Zodiac, but trying to say that a mythic weapon in XI is any harder to make isn't correct. I'd place even a 119 Empyrean as more difficult to achieve. We're talking about someone blazing through an MMO in 1-2 week's time, not Joe Nobody who only gets to play an hour on days his wife says he can. Building a Mythic will only be as difficult as waiting for assault tags.

The person who it's hard to make a Mythic for will have an equally difficult time completing a relic weapon in XIV. We can't take a high end player and compare them to a low end in another game, it's not a fair assessment. For example, I know a few people who are still stuck on animus books, and others who are still working on nexus lights even though I'm finishing up my second zodiac; I also worked on each relic stage as they were released, if I go and make my Bravura right now from scratch I would likely not be finished for 1.5-2 months due to alexandrite and soldiery gates. Besides that, it's a matter of perseverance rather than difficulty. To this end, the difficulty and time required is similar when starting from point 0, assuming the character is developed. I can pretty much guarantee that the time spent actually playing the game is lopsided for one of them, but anyway, this isn't an XIV board, and it's only a matter of time before we attract he who shall not be named.

[ccl]

The only "hard" part of mythic/ergon is the lockout, I think a zodiac in XIV take more playtime than a mythic in XI, maybe I'm just very bad but I wasn't able to cap gear in 2 weeks in XIV !