Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Shenrien]

Clearly you were a casual that has a job and a life and were unable to throw 16-18hrs a day at the game, playing from the moment you woke up, to the moment you went to bed. No time for shower, brushing teeth and changing clothes. Just grab some crackers, some water and sat on your ass for the next 7hrs until you cried for mom/dad/sister/brother/grandma/whoever didn't throw your lazy worthless ass out, when they got home to make you some hot pockets because you can't pull yourself from the game. That would mean down time and that you would be losing out on potential drops.

[arus2001]

Clearly you were a casual that has a job and a life and were unable to throw 16-18hrs a day at the game, playing from the moment you woke up, to the moment you went to bed. No time for shower, brushing teeth and changing clothes. Just grab some crackers, some water and sat on your ass for the next 7hrs until you cried for mom/dad/sister/brother/grandma/whoever didn't throw your lazy worthless ass out, when they got home to make you some hot pockets because you can't pull yourself from the game. That would mean down time and that you would be losing out on potential drops.

[Julian]

Hey guys, I wasn't aware I was browsing the 14 forums.

Let's keep this on topic now, shall we?

[Sechs]

What's hard about making a mythic weapon?

What's hard about xxx? What's "hard" about anything in FFXI? We've been through this discussion in another thread, about what you can define hard and why do you say A is hard but B is not.
What's "hard" in my view in making a Mythic? The patience and grind it requires for several activities that have to be repeated over a long time minimum. So much that the thought of feeling so far might drive some people off from even starting, or midway through.
I would never be able to do daily salvo runs for 1 year, and even supposing I would be able to (totally not realistical, there are days I can't even manage to login) I would hardly have time to do anything else. It would leave me incredibly stressed and eventually just stop playing the game or stop farming alex.
I completed my own becuase I had very large amounts of money from other sources. Was it easy for me? Well, actually yes, took me less to complete my mythic than to complete my Daurdabla 99.
But it was a very specific and special situation. I see people farming from zero with very little gil. Would I be able to do that? Absolutely not, and it would literally take me a bit less than an year.
Ergon is even more expensive, and if you don't already have all the missions/achievements done (I do) that's quite some months of daily grind too.
Is the rest difficult? Not really, the rest is just a couple of months of work of very quick grind, Assaults and Einherjar taking the most, but I see it very doable for a guy like me.
Gathering 30k Alex from Salvo runs? Completely out of reach.

A comparable level of time to a fully upgraded Zodiac

Not comparable, seeing how I have two of those (well, 1 zodiac tbf).
Hardcore people from FFXI, those who complete multiple mythics etc, would complete Zodiacs in a few days without all the weekly gating systems.
That's the big difference.
There are gates that forbid you going faster than a certain amount even if you want to.
This sets a maximum speed rate limit, let's say, and in the end leave players less stressed, I believe. Less chances for burnout.

[ccl]

Wich part of Zodiac weapon is locked by weekly gating ? I have mythic/relics/emps and I'm still working on my first zodiac

[Niiro]

The only time I can think of when any part of relic was gated was when mythos were still capped weekly and needed for Mists to make zenith.

[Darkmagi]

Yeah, actual playtime spent on a zodiac in FFXIV is much higher if you're a good player in both games. You can make the required gil without much time involvement and the rest is lockouts. Zodiac isn't even BIS either.

[Darkmagi]

What's hard about xxx? What's "hard" about anything in FFXI? We've been through this discussion in another thread, about what you can define hard and why do you say A is hard but B is not.
What's "hard" in my view in making a Mythic? The patience and grind it requires for several activities that have to be repeated over a long time minimum. So much that the thought of feeling so far might drive some people off from even starting, or midway through.
I would never be able to do daily salvo runs for 1 year, and even supposing I would be able to (totally not realistical, there are days I can't even manage to login) I would hardly have time to do anything else. It would leave me incredibly stressed and eventually just stop playing the game or stop farming alex.
I completed my own becuase I had very large amounts of money from other sources. Was it easy for me? Well, actually yes, took me less to complete my mythic than to complete my Daurdabla 99.
But it was a very specific and special situation. I see people farming from zero with very little gil. Would I be able to do that? Absolutely not, and it would literally take me a bit less than an year.
Ergon is even more expensive, and if you don't already have all the missions/achievements done (I do) that's quite some months of daily grind too.
Is the rest difficult? Not really, the rest is just a couple of months of work of very quick grind, Assaults and Einherjar taking the most, but I see it very doable for a guy like me.
Gathering 30k Alex from Salvo runs? Completely out of reach.



Not comparable, seeing how I have two of those (well, 1 zodiac tbf).
Hardcore people from FFXI, those who complete multiple mythics etc, would complete Zodiacs in a few days without all the weekly gating systems.
That's the big difference.
There are gates that forbid you going faster than a certain amount even if you want to.
This sets a maximum speed rate limit, let's say, and in the end leave players less stressed, I believe. Less chances for burnout.

Double posting, but was too lazy to edit and quote this in. I had 3 mythics in FFXI and 2 empy 99s (1 technically and a 95 since I sold the gil for the 99 part before quitting), gil was absolutely no trouble to make if you were resourceful, especially if willing to dual/tribox. I was able to make and sell billions of gil without any trouble, you cannot even compare the two things really. Zodiac doesn't involve being good at making money, that's all mythic was +minor time sinks and lockouts. There are no gating systems in place for XIV zodiac, you simply have to grind and it will take a hardcore player more actual played hours to complete than a mythic easily.

[EjinCaitsith]

Ccl always bragged that all of the gil he made for Koga was done through selling Delve clears/mats when they were relatively new. This was also at the height of the alexandrite exploit. I don't know how Darkmagi made his billions, but I'm sure it involved selling Delve clears and BC items at the height of their popularity. I did the same and will agree that during this period, gil was extremely easy to make.

Thing is, you can't really sell clears anymore and Delve mats have hit rock bottom(400K airlixir +2 and 1.1M pelt/claw). So if Ccl came back today with 0 gil and tried to make a Idris, it wouldn't only take him several months just to find the HPB needed, it'd also take him significantly longer to make the gil needed compared to before. What Ccl loves to brag about(making the gil for Koga in a week) would be literally impossible in today's FFXI unless he had an army of 12 plasm mules and did delve 24/7.

[Spira]

For those that say that gil is easy to make i think you forget that the pareto principle applies in the in-game economy as well.. ie. 80% of wealth in the game is owned by about 20% of the people. If you fall into this 20%, then it would be easy to see how gil is not an issue.

I recently crowdfunded a mythic weapon and quite interestingly enough the statistics of donations lines up. I had 20 individual donors who contributed to my 200m goal, and 164m (or 82%) came from just 2 people.

With XI, being able to fall into that 20% really depends on 2 things tho, timing and skill. You could be the best player at the time but if the markets are not in flux then theres little you can do. Most of the gil being made is due to specific hyperinflation caused by demand spikes for certain items, especially when a new expansion hits or new endgame content is introduced. I remember back in the day I made 25m gil easy from 1 run of Limbus because practically nobody had Lumoria unlocked and the cost of each Ancient BC was absurdly high. Didn't last long tho. If you're prudent enough not to spend the gil you make during such peaks, then you get to keep your wealth when the market stabilizes and your spending power thus increases. This is exactly what selling Delve runs back in the day was for the early SoA era. Consistently doing this and making bank will ensure you have enough to spend for quite some time until the next big ticket item comes along. And then the next time you make bank would be when u see such an opportunity arise again.

Of course, this is where skill comes in. and by skill i mean both in terms of player skill and "natural" skill. there are things a mythic wielder can do that a normal player simply cannot. the better off you are, the stronger you'll be in entrenching your position in the top tier. Bridging the gap can be done either way.. tho i think it happens more often when players upgrade equipment than improving their game.

This is perhaps one reason why i quite like XIVs Zodiac system (granted i stopped playing that one regularly to know what the latest requirements are). The effort required in XIV for a ARR Relic had little to no monetary value attached to it at all. In fact most of the items have none of that? I think most of that comes in the form of crafted gear and materia. I myself made a Relic pretty easily, because all it required me to do was grind content.. and it was barely even a grind compared to what I had to do for my XI mythic (months of einherjar and countless nyzul token runs.. and i did this back in the lv75 days).

Another thing about effort based content is that it becomes easier as the game progresses. Monetary based progress will drop and skew according to the effort required to earn it, to some extent.. but will have to take into account demand / supply.. and thats why right now Empys are royally being screwed over in XI.

[Sechs]

^ what the last two people said, imho at least.

[arus2001]

There is a financial aspect to the Zodiac process in later stages involving specific materia, which can easily add to up to a million gil or more depending on luck. Sure, someone could try to spiritbond and break down a bunch of gear and hope for the best (and erroneously calling it "free"), but the XIV I played didn't exactly throw gil at you once you finished the main story line (and didn't opt for gear rewards along the way instead). To backtrack a bit to my earlier post on multi-boxing, case and point:

...gil was absolutely no trouble to make if you were resourceful, especially if willing to dual/tribox.

Having pocket support on demand is huge, but it also translates to things like being able to access party-restricted activities more easily. And while perhaps a lesser variant, do things like Dynamis and Salvage repeatedly throughout a day. XI not really having any "get out of the red" mechanics also makes the process a hell of a lot easier. And I'll forever say that once some hardcore player gets established in a given game, they tend to lose touch with how the more common player experiences it... which usually results in conflicting opinions about how things are balanced, should be, or whatever.

[Darkmagi]

Well I've certainly not kept entirely up to date on the current market, but my point mostly was that you really can't compare the systems. The games are totally different and the fact that multiboxing is so easy and possible in 11 is a benefit in itself due to the nature of the game revolving so heavily around economy. We were comparing the most hardcore, I'm sure those would be willing to shell out a little money on accounts if it would vastly increase their performance. I consider windower related additions to be standard for 11, because the majority of hardcore players will end up using them. I really don't see any way that you could massively improve your progression in XIV via multiboxing, unless you had god tier scripting knowledge to make some really good bots and solo coil or something. If the economy really isn't exploitable at all anymore, then I guess this argument hits the floor a little bit.

[Malithar]

This is exactly what selling Delve runs back in the day was for the early SoA era. Consistently doing this and making bank will ensure you have enough to spend for quite some time until the next big ticket item comes along. And then the next time you make bank would be when u see such an opportunity arise again.

Agree with that so much. I started fresh in the game like 5-6 months before SoA hit, I had missed all of the gil trains. Thanks to mercs (mostly Delve, but DM and some other note worthy BCs tossed in) being such easy money for a group able to do the content, I was able to save upwards of 800 mil in a few months. Idris wouldn't of been possible in the time frame I managed otherwise, shy of catching wind of the Alexandrite money machine. It's kinda funny, FFXI goes through large periods of time where gil has little value and use sans RMEs, but when new content comes along, it comes back to the forefront with a vengeance via mercs, new items, mats, etc.

And I'll forever say that once some hardcore player gets established in a given game, they tend to lose touch with how the more common player experiences it... which usually results in conflicting opinions about how things are balanced, should be, or whatever.

Had a good Christmas today, came home and hopped into a pug for some poor sap doing Kamhir Drift's Delve Ram cause I felt in a giving/helping mood. Just your regular run of the mile 4 never seen before players, no outstanding gear, mostly 119 Skirmish or RF 119 with some splashes of junk that I didn't care to take note of. No gear swaps, silly job combos of Drg/Whm, Sam/Run (for the magic damage...), Smn/Whm, Rng/Dnc, and overall, so terribly fail. Gave it two runs while giving instructions, explaining how to kill it, asking to try different jobs, etc. Pretty much came down to when he went to ranged damage, we were timing out. When you don't have access to the best gear, best jobs, and best players, this game is stupidly brutal. Pretty easy to take for granted what a good Whm that knows when to Erase, Petra, Para-na, buff, debuff, etc can do, just as how much a good *insert nearly any job* can change the dynamics of a party. Get 6 good ones together and the game is easy mode. Get a random group of your average joes together and I can sorta understand where the people who scream on forums for shit to be nerfed are coming from.

I don't think this degree of unbalance is something unique to FFXI though. I remember back in WotLK days in WoW being able to clear rooms of trash on a top geared Rogue, but then you get to the boss where you need a good tank and suddenly, even if he's geared well, he plays like shit and the run falls apart. Something similar in DDO too, could go do raids and such, and a well geared *any class* with AC builds, pots, buffs, etc, that was played well could decimate enemies while still keeping themselves alive. But join a more classic styled run with a tank and such, and you're stuck depending on these people to pull their weight, and when they don't, you're left in the same situation.

Maybe it's just a factor of all/most MMOs that the best geared, best played characters are ill balanced compared to your average joe, and it's not something that can actually be fixed. You're always going to have the people on top, the one's at the bottom, and the majority that fall somewhere in the middle. The ones at the top will always carry runs, the ones at the bottom will always ruin (or be carried through) runs, and the ones in the middle might just be capable enough to contribute. The trick is finding enough of the middle-high players to be capable of doing content, which is easier said than done in FFXI unless you've already got an established network.

[arus2001]

To be honest, XI could benefit from some kind of in-game questing/tutorial system per job that best indicates reasonable subjob choices. People may still do stupid things, but if someone is at least guided by the game itself (No angry, "STOP SUCKING!" bias from an impatient player), they may more pick up on things. To be honest, the 75 cap Maat fight runs a bit counter to this. Think of how people demand RDM get played, usually as a healer with a side of debuffs. That won't win the fight for you, though. Most just wind up having to CS nuke. Very few dare melee. On the other hand, WHM's is a bit more sensible since you could either beat him to death or cure enough over time. THF is pure lotto with the steal, but you could also kill him. Anyway, with the Trust system in place, I think the game could possibly pull this sort of thing off now.

[dasva]

To be honest, XI could benefit from some kind of in-game questing/tutorial system per job that best indicates reasonable subjob choices. People may still do stupid things, but if someone is at least guided by the game itself (No angry, "STOP SUCKING!" bias from an impatient player), they may more pick up on things. To be honest, the 75 cap Maat fight runs a bit counter to this. Think of how people demand RDM get played, usually as a healer with a side of debuffs. That won't win the fight for you, though. Most just wind up having to CS nuke. Very few dare melee. On the other hand, WHM's is a bit more sensible since you could either beat him to death or cure enough over time. THF is pure lotto with the steal, but you could also kill him. Anyway, with the Trust system in place, I think the game could possibly pull this sort of thing off now.

Idk back when I did maat it wasn't that different than party play. Debuff the mob. Heal and buff when needed and when that is all taken care of throw out some nukes. Main difference was wasn't much healing/buffing needed since was just sleep nuking... and not to use dia since at the time they had just changed how blink works

[Spira]

Tutorial battles would be interesting.. but probably not worth the effort considering the amount of scripting that would need to be done.
such tutorials ideally come at lower levels when you're still learning to play the job and working with the tools you have.. but are also limited by what you can or cannot do based on what ja are available..

It'd be cool if they designed a quest series for each job where a job hero kinda tests your skill with that particular job in very specific ways - this would require them acknowledging some less common job role paradigms at some point... would be nice. maybe like 3 BCs. 1 at 30 cap, one at 60 cap and 1 at 99, with each dealing in a different area of that particular job. But also difficult because JAs get tweaked so often and sometimes overhauled.

Did You Know?!
I thought Maat fight was pretty easy as a WHM in the past, but with Afflatus Solace's cureskins, its a complete joke.

[ccl]

Ccl always bragged that all of the gil he made for Koga was done through selling Delve clears/mats when they were relatively new. This was also at the height of the alexandrite exploit. I don't know how Darkmagi made his billions, but I'm sure it involved selling Delve clears and BC items at the height of their popularity. I did the same and will agree that during this period, gil was extremely easy to make.

Thing is, you can't really sell clears anymore and Delve mats have hit rock bottom(400K airlixir +2 and 1.1M pelt/claw). So if Ccl came back today with 0 gil and tried to make a Idris, it wouldn't only take him several months just to find the HPB needed, it'd also take him significantly longer to make the gil needed compared to before. What Ccl loves to brag about(making the gil for Koga in a week) would be literally impossible in today's FFXI unless he had an army of 12 plasm mules and did delve 24/7.

Alex are much cheaper now(7k on asura last time I played), the alex exploit is(was not long ago) still working when I made koga it was 13k and I wasn't able to clear delve II in 10-12min back then so even if stuff don't see for as much as before, the ability to clear 2-3 times faster and and alexandrite costing almost half the price would prolly take about the same time to make the gil for it.
As for ergon they decided to give it an 8 month gates so if I come back with zero gil, I'll have the gil before I'm legend in all coalition. Also I don't consider shouting in town 24/7 for HP bayld actual playtime.

I also like to brag about 21 kill in hall of mul and clearing delve I before the strat was out how could you forget those

ps: Do we have any info on if/when they will increase the ilvl ?

[Damane]

To be honest, XI could benefit from some kind of in-game questing/tutorial system per job that best indicates reasonable subjob choices. People may still do stupid things, but if someone is at least guided by the game itself (No angry, "STOP SUCKING!" bias from an impatient player), they may more pick up on things. To be honest, the 75 cap Maat fight runs a bit counter to this. Think of how people demand RDM get played, usually as a healer with a side of debuffs. That won't win the fight for you, though. Most just wind up having to CS nuke. Very few dare melee. On the other hand, WHM's is a bit more sensible since you could either beat him to death or cure enough over time. THF is pure lotto with the steal, but you could also kill him. Anyway, with the Trust system in place, I think the game could possibly pull this sort of thing off now.

The GEO and RUN ergon quest fights were nice in that department, your gear had to be good (not excellent) and you needed to know what you do and how your job works to be able to beat those fights. Gearing and playstyle both were key for victory.

[EjinCaitsith]

Alex are much cheaper now(7k on asura last time I played), the alex exploit is(was not long ago) still working when I made koga it was 13k and I wasn't able to clear delve II in 10-12min back then so even if stuff don't see for as much as before, the ability to clear 2-3 times faster and and alexandrite costing almost half the price would prolly take about the same time to make the gil for it.
As for ergon they decided to give it an 8 month gates so if I come back with zero gil, I'll have the gil before I'm legend in all coalition. Also I don't consider shouting in town 24/7 for HP bayld actual playtime.

10min Delve is only possible with SPs and 6 real, perfectly geared players. 2 people triboxing realistically do Yorcia in 17-20min on average and 20-25min for the other 2 zones. But it doesn't matter how fast you cleared, because we both know the vast majority of the gil came from selling clears. With that gone, your ability to make that much gil is severely diminished.

I also like to brag about 21 kill in hall of mul and clearing delve I before the strat was out how could you forget those

Check the Kumarbi Akar equip history. A lot of groups were totally capped on Legion gear before you even started. And Delve I was a matter of having the correct number of relic rangers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't the first NA/EU to clear Yorcia or Kamihr Delve without beads when they were released, were you?

I'm not saying it's harder or easier to make an ultimate in 11 compared to 14, because I honestly don't know. I'm just saying the days of making 20-30m/day are long gone in today's FFXI outside of some really extreme cases.