Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Trumpy]

Except there was only 1-5 people on the test server ever at a time. Didnt really make sense to have it when basically nobody was testing anything. I am not even sure if its been available to get on in quite a while.

[fantasticdan]

Why would they adjust shark bite? It's still junk isn't it?

[Ophannus]

1-5 people because they rarely updated or added things to the test server. The first ) months it came out, they often released new spells, ja, weapon skills to test server before implementation. Around when SoA came out, they stopped adding to the test server and just released new things witthout testing. Height of test server was 95 and 99 cap when they actually released things for us to play with.

[Petitssk]

Why would they adjust shark bite? It's still junk isn't it?

No numbers at all and just Abyssea, but when a friend helped me on his THF because the other THF in our group wasn't available, Shark Bite did deal enormous damage.

[Prothescar]

higher pdif

not that most 1h job's melee phase damage isn't better than 2h's, but 1h doesn't have a higher max pDIF than 2h. only pets have higher max pDIF. DWers always had the best white damage next to MNKs, but it's become a more significant lead with the relative changes to Dual Wield. They haven't changed how it works, but they have made it extremely abundant for every primarily dual wielding job to the point that capping out attack delay is effortless for them. the extra accuracy helps but isn't a remarkable increase in damage for anyone, it's almost all attributed to dual wield availability.

[FaeQueenCory]

Also inb4 nerf rudra+ardor>current rudra. If they nerf rudra by 20% potency across the board, but ardor is a 30% increase in sc damage, thf would be stronger but only with a rdm. I'm kinda fine with that, as it involves synergy and fosters teamwork. NMs should be given SC resistance too such that every SC does subsequently lower damage until x amount of time passes. First sc does regular sc damage, next one caps at 90%-> 80%, etc. caps down to 60% and goes up like 5% every min. Tens of thousands of extra damage for simply timing your own WS 2s after your last shouldnt give such a whopping reward. Nerf the fuck out of 2 step damage since it free and guaranteed but buff 4-5steps and give bonuses if other jobs/players contribute. A sc that does 40k should feel like a huge reward for 2-3dd that cooridnated it, not the one SAM that says "everyone hold TP, self skillchaining lol"

That would actually be a really good SC balancer.
(Instead of completely removing SCs which, as you pointed out, foster teamwork. They also foster skill, since noobs generally can't SC at all.)
I question if the coding at their disposal (13yrold system) would allow it, but since there are similar mechanics via DT, I think it would be possible. (Since it would just have to be a -MDT variable term with a SC tag.)

And I agree with everyone about the weirdness of Shark Bite and Mercy Stroke... Seeing as they weren't really OP, just competitive to every other WS.
Mandalic Stab I kinda get... If only because every time I've ever used it on my Vajraless TH-only THF (I don't take it to shit) it's been basically exactly half a Rudra's... Which is what Rudra's was pre-last-WS-update...
Which makes me slightly concerned at the implication that they're undoing everything... But not really.
It's more likely that they're just dropping the 2k and/or 3k anchors down to Fudo level (since they don't seem to have a problem with it).

I'm a little sad for y'all real THFs.
13 years before you get a spotlight.... And... It's gone.
(No one tell SE about SMN or DNC... They seem to be just as "jobist" as the community and I don't wanna lose my 25k BPs... >_> spent too long being irrelevant for that.)

[dasva]

So let me get this straight they recognize that thf and sam are overpowered right now and decide to nerf thf and buff sam? What is this aht urghan era sam love all over again? Whelp time to get on the other 4-5 jobs that can end skillchains with 30k ws that they are completely ignoring

[geno3302]

I really hope this nerf is because they did a really good kob balancing the xol foghts and didn't want the only start to be: bring thief/sam and blow shit up. I also jope tgis is leading towards the magic update and possible revival of magic bursts

Edit: on my phone...can't type it seems. Will fix later

[Orestes]

For ranged delay, is Velocity Shot part of that maximum +70 value? Last I read, Byrths testing showed that they were included in the same term. If so, then Flurry 2 and Velocity Shot would put us at 40% ranged delay reduction. Add +10 more from merits. to put us at +50. Meaning we would only need Snapshot +20 in gear to cap it. Nahtirah Trousers were tested at 9%, NQ Iuitl Wristbands, unaugmented, are tested at 10%, so add a decent augment, and were are supposedly at SEs Snapshot+70 cap. After that, we can stack all sorts of Rapid Shot gear in the other slots. I'm seeing Rapid Shot +32 from Arc Jerkin+1, Orion Beret+1, and Arc Socks+1.

Rapid Shot reduces delay by random increments. Do you think it would have any effect if you're @ the 70% cap already? I'm doubtful.

fwiw, Byrth noted his Iuitl hands test was done differently, with less accuracy. I'd just assume they're +5% as labeled.

[dasva]

Rapid Shot reduces delay by random increments. Do you think it would have any effect if you're @ the 70% cap already? I'm doubtful.

fwiw, Byrth noted his Iuitl hands test was done differently, with less accuracy. I'd just assume they're +5% as labeled.

Well see about that label... there has always been this thing about +snapshot vs delay reduction. 1 snap shot merit is highly documented as 2 delay reduction. So 5 being 10 kind of makes sense. Then you start comparing other older pieces that have been tested to newer ones with numbers it wouldn't make any sense if +1 snapshot was 1 delay reduction. For example Commodore Gants +2 was tested at 9% but the highest number we see of new gear is what 5? Does it really make sense that every ilvl piece would be lower than some old af2+2? Some sure but many? Or delve legs tested at 9 then they release WoE 2 with +7? Or Wurrukatte Boots at 6% with only other native piece being Khepri Gamashes which gets +2-3 or augments on skirmish which can get +3-5 etc etc etc

[Orestes]

So let me get this straight they recognize that thf and sam are overpowered right now and decide to nerf thf and buff sam? What is this aht urghan era sam love all over again? Whelp time to get on the other 4-5 jobs that can end skillchains with 30k ws that they are completely ignoring

Just curious, but how did you interpret this as a buff to sam?

Ardor is going to offer the absolute most benefit to jobs that swing more per round. Take a haste capped nin, dnc, blu or thf for example. It may only take 10 seconds to get 1000TP, but a NIN will land near 40 hits. With Ardor, this will probably make a darkness SC closed with Blade: Hi do an extreme amount of damage.

Contrast this with a SAM swinging 3 times between weaponskills. Ardor will probably be hardly noticeable for SAM. This seems balanced to me, since SAM can skillchain more often.

The sad part, is jobs like DRK, DRG and WAR hit about 1-2 more times per round than a SAM, so it's likely Ardor won't do much more for them than it does for SAM.

It still sounds like a step in the right direction. All they need to do is balance a few of the 2-handers that aren't SAM a bit more.

[Orestes]

Well see about that label... there has always been this thing about +snapshot vs delay reduction. 1 snap shot merit is highly documented as 2 delay reduction. So 5 being 10 kind of makes sense. Then you start comparing other older pieces that have been tested to newer ones with numbers it wouldn't make any sense if +1 snapshot was 1 delay reduction. For example Commodore Gants +2 was tested at 9% but the highest number we see of new gear is what 5? Does it really make sense that every ilvl piece would be lower than some old af2+2? Some sure but many? Or delve legs tested at 9 then they release WoE 2 with +7? Or Wurrukatte Boots at 6% with only other native piece being Khepri Gamashes which gets +2-3 or augments on skirmish which can get +3-5 etc etc etc

Lanun Gants +1 have +9 on them.

Yes, the RNG merit description for Snapshot has always described 1 point being equal to 2% delay reduction, for a total of 10%. However, does it make any sense what-so-ever for stats on gear to be analagous to merit points? I don't think so.

As for Iuitl Wristbands. Taken from Byrth's post.

To be clear, the testing I'm doing now is less accurate than when I was sitting in sea spamming for hours. The upside is that it's much faster and probably pretty close to the truth.

Edit 2: Actually, after looking at this more I don't really trust this data at all. I'm going to have to do a lot more shooting to get real values for this.

It seems like a safer bet going with the +5 written on the item description, unless there was a followup that I missed.

[Fwahm]

Rapid Shot reduces delay by random increments. Do you think it would have any effect if you're @ the 70% cap already? I'm doubtful.

fwiw, Byrth noted his Iuitl hands test was done differently, with less accuracy. I'd just assume they're +5% as labeled.

According to a recent post by SE, Rapid Shot is calculated separately in addition to the 70% Snapshot cap.

[Orestes]

According to a recent post by SE, Rapid Shot is calculated separately in addition to the 70% Snapshot cap.

Cool, thanks. Missed that.

If that's the case, then native + merited Rapid Shot should contribue another 10% delay reduction on the whole.

[Capuchin]

It may only take 10 seconds to get 1000TP, but a NIN will land near 40 hits. With Ardor, this will probably make a darkness SC closed with Blade: Hi do an extreme amount of damage.

Um... your NIN only gets 25 tp per swing? (must be some sort of typo there like you meant 3000tp, right?)

While it does sound very true that Ardor is more beneficial for high attack speed/low TP per hit jobs...

1) You have to start bringing a RDM, which I doubt most people will want to do for most content just to make the THF look good. If Ardor + "nerfed Rudra" is more in line with other jobs' WS, why not just bring other DD jobs and have flexibility to not require also forcing a RDM into a party slot? If you're already using a RDM, great. If not, is THF with Ardor gonna be THAT compelling to make you get a RDM just for that purpose?

2) One thing people aren't noting about DNC is the loss to instant self-SC ability through WS + Reverse Flourish + WS #2.

3) Does this mean DW exceeding the 80% delay reduction cap (and lowering TP/hit) and removing Store TP might actually provide some benefit for non-3000tp closing WS? Hahahahaha. NIN is already basically delay capped with capped magical haste (35% DW5 trait = 79.69% reduction), and a NIN could add DW+55 in gear.

4) To some extent Ardor could also be a now needed H2H buff, MNK has really dropped off since a year ago. My PUP will really enjoy this too once I wrap up Kenkonken and cap H2H delay with that extra Martial Arts! Heck, PUP could get a really nice buff out of Ardor with some of the "self" SC possibilities with the automaton, using Tactical Switch, etc.

[Hoshiku]

We do bring a RDM to content we do with our thieves. Haste 2 for everyone is quite nice because it means we only need one march. Obviously a summoner could do this too but the RDM casts it outside of party. With that being said if the nerf to rudra's is as potent as it sounds we will be back to kogas for sure.

[dasva]

Just curious, but how did you interpret this as a buff to sam?

Ardor is going to offer the absolute most benefit to jobs that swing more per round. Take a haste capped nin, dnc, blu or thf for example. It may only take 10 seconds to get 1000TP, but a NIN will land near 40 hits. With Ardor, this will probably make a darkness SC closed with Blade: Hi do an extreme amount of damage.

Contrast this with a SAM swinging 3 times between weaponskills. Ardor will probably be hardly noticeable for SAM. This seems balanced to me, since SAM can skillchain more often.

The sad part, is jobs like DRK, DRG and WAR hit about 1-2 more times per round than a SAM, so it's likely Ardor won't do much more for them than it does for SAM.

It still sounds like a step in the right direction. All they need to do is balance a few of the 2-handers that aren't SAM a bit more.

Just because it might help other jobs more doesn't mean it isn't also helping sam... that said we don't know if it will help them more. Sure they will get more out of it per ws but sam will still be throwing out more ws so depending on how it scales it could effectively do similar amounts

[dasva]

Lanun Gants +1 have +9 on them.

Which kind of just proves my point more. Why would the reforged +1 of the relic+2 have the same amount? Or even better... Lanun Gauntlets only have +7 why would they have less than the relic they were reforged from? And that was just one out of several examples I gave.

[Ophannus]

Problem with this is, you'd need to have parties with brd cor rdm whm and 2 dds instead of your cor brd whm and 3 dds. Ardor will be party only, so you'd need to shoehorn a rdm in sjereas before rem fould be in their own pt but still haste2 ppl. Would brd cor whm rdm and 2thf out damage brd cor whm and 3 dds, with haste 2 from rdm in a diff party—remains to be seen.

[NynJa]

Ardor will be party only

Except, you know, its not

A new magic spell will be added.
Ardor (RDM Lv.64, affects a single ally)
Increases damage from the target's next skillchain based on the number of preceeding melee hits.