Dev Tracker: Discussion

[NynJa]

They already explained why they're doing it this way a few days ago.

Cuz SAM number 1 in our hearts <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3 <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

obviously lol

[dasva]

Cuz SAM number 1 in our hearts <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3 <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

obviously lol

Pretty much. All the arguments they used about non rudras dagger ws applied to sam and they were just like well guys fudo is some super unique ws that is only good with good pdif and sams suck at getting att

[NynJa]

Pretty much. All the arguments they used about non rudras dagger ws applied to sam and they were just like well guys fudo is some super unique ws that is only good with good pdif and sams suck at getting att

Oh well, only good news about this is the Koga I made for my mule is back to overlord status

[Byrthnoth]

As long as they don't adjust Pyrrhic Kleos, Dancer will still be shitting on everything damage-wise.

RIP THF, come dance with me.

[Damane]

It seems like the most obvious solution to tank hate would just be to make Flash's hate scale, either with player stats or just be lazy about it and make it scale with level/ilvl.

Ideally hate from a lot of skills would scale properly but Flash being the most commonly used hate-grabbing skill on a relatively low recast and shared by multiple jobs (and accessible with subs) seems like the most obvious solution, would at least solve the issue for PLD/RUN in most situations I would think as long as they made it potent enough.

I hate to make XIV comparisons but once you've played a game with a functioning enmity system looking back at how they handle hate in XI is just extremely perplexing.

It's nice that tanks were always optional in XI in the sense that other jobs could hold hate and take hits with proper gear/subs, but if you do have a tank they really should have the necessary tools to keep hate without needing help from other jobs.

that still wouldnt help, the tanks would maybe have hate on the initial start of the fight but as soon the melees cap out on hate in 1 min its again go go disco spinning bird. The problem is the enmity cap. They either need to remove it, or make it so dmg dealt to a mob produces a % amount of enmity and not a fixed amount dependend on the % amount of dmg dealt in comparison to the mobs max HP, like dasva proposed once on the OFs, while letting hate abilitys keep their constant enmity numbers. While Enmity issues are an annoynce for melees a bit, its a much much bigger annoyance for ranged and nukers, because it overcomplicates the battle and makes the mob move...

[NynJa]

or make it so dmg dealt to a mob produces a % amount of enmity and not a fixed amount dependend on the % amount of dmg dealt in comparison to the mobs max HP

Doesnt it already work like this for mobs? I'm sure I remember reading how you lose enmity as a percentage of damage taken to how much HP you have.

[Sechs]

I think it does work like that for enmity lost, but not for the gained one.

[Damane]

I think it does work like that for enmity lost, but not for the gained one.

^this

[dasva]

Which is why I know such a thing should be possible. If lost can be modified by hp% than so can gain

[Niiro]

that still wouldnt help, the tanks would maybe have hate on the initial start of the fight but as soon the melees cap out on hate in 1 min its again go go disco spinning bird. The problem is the enmity cap. They either need to remove it, or make it so dmg dealt to a mob produces a % amount of enmity and not a fixed amount dependend on the % amount of dmg dealt in comparison to the mobs max HP, like dasva proposed once on the OFs, while letting hate abilitys keep their constant enmity numbers. While Enmity issues are an annoynce for melees a bit, its a much much bigger annoyance for ranged and nukers, because it overcomplicates the battle and makes the mob move...

Yea it wouldn't address the issue of the cap, was more concerning the ridiculous disparity between the static amounts of hate designated to hate tools and the absurd amounts of damage being put out now.

1280 VE/180 CE from Flash might have cut it back when breaking 1k with a WS was impressive, but now....

[NynJa]

I think it does work like that for enmity lost, but not for the gained one.

Thats what I meant, for players losing enmity to mobs.

[Kuishen]

In terms of job adjustments, we're smoothing out damage differences across melee jobs. Some dagger weapon skills will be adjusted to reign in thieves' skillchain damage.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...05/806/3a1.jpg

[Fwahm]

The problem with making damage enmity scale with HP is that while it somewhat counters the enmity cap problem if calibrated right, it causes other problems with actual enmity.

Let's say that enmity dealt is calibrated so that a good DD going all out on a 300,000 HP mob gains similar enmity to a buffed Paladin, and a healer gets half as much enmity by curing DD tanks.

The problem is that when you go to a 1,000,000 HP mob, then PLDs could keep hate half asleep, and if you didn't have a PLD, the healer would rip hate off of melees with the standard cures. On the other hand, against a 100,000 HP mob, PLDs would be completely useless in doing anything to keep hate off of melees.

[NynJa]

Over time everyone will still cap though

[Xantavia]

As long as they don't adjust Pyrrhic Kleos, Dancer will still be shitting on everything damage-wise.

RIP THF, come dance with me.

Better watch yourself there and never party with SAMs or soon to be ex-thiefs. Otherwise your job and WS of choice will be next if it is better than theirs.

[Hitou]

10 days ago: Were nerfing X cause were adding Y
Today: Were not adding Y but still nerfing X

Sigh.

3/18 Our testing of Ardor has shown us that it may not be properly balanced for two-handed weapons other than Great Katana, so we are currently reviewing its effects. We plan on making it so that the more players participate in a skillchain, the larger the bonus will be, so that it will encourage teamwork with other players.
The requirements to cast the spell will not change- it will be available for Lv.64 Red mages. It will be changed from a party-targeted spell to an enfeebling spell, so Red Mages will not need to worry about constantly recasting the spell on party members. However, these changes we have planned will mean we cannot add Ardor during the March update. We will be making the adjustments to weapon skills as planned, however.
With this, players may think we're doing a simple nerf with no compensatory buff first, and we will explain why in the next section.

I hope I made it obvious enough for you but just in case... They're delaying Ardor till another update because they're changing it from a buff to an enfeeble. They're still nerfing Rudra's because they're jerks and Vagary is apparently balanced around it being nerfed. They're still adding Ardor despite you constantly implying the contrary. I know you're the queen of over-racting but sheesh...

[dasva]

The problem with making damage enmity scale with HP is that while it somewhat counters the enmity cap problem if calibrated right, it causes other problems with actual enmity.

Let's say that enmity dealt is calibrated so that a good DD going all out on a 300,000 HP mob gains similar enmity to a buffed Paladin, and a healer gets half as much enmity by curing DD tanks.

The problem is that when you go to a 1,000,000 HP mob, then PLDs could keep hate half asleep, and if you didn't have a PLD, the healer would rip hate off of melees with the standard cures. On the other hand, against a 100,000 HP mob, PLDs would be completely useless in doing anything to keep hate off of melees.

There shouldn't be that huge of a disparity between those situations because if it's scaled with HP your melees will cap at approximately same point in the fight by mob hp%.

The only difference would be the pure time it would take to get to that percentage which can be fairly variable and indeed already is but this would in a way in a way this sort of help with too.

[arus2001]

They should model the FFXIV system for enmity. In 14, tanks hold hate extremely well, it's almost a joke for DPS to pull hate unless they really try. Granted DPS can still take hate and a lot of JAs increase the damage they take directly(Blood for Blood is a JA that increases damage by like 10% but increases damage you take by 20%). Most special attacks can be dodged by strafing/sidestepping to avoid cone or circle. Tanks have lots of abilities to hold hate and most of their weapon skills generate bonus enmity.

I'd argue this is impossible unless they give all intended tank classes a bunch of 5-10s cooldown JAs that also grant TP upon use comparable to high haste melee gains. Nonetheless, capping is still a concern.

As HP relation, I'd be more inclined to tie it to the tank. Create some tiered traits where you get some +Enmity based on Max HP. Make a cape or something with a +1 to that trait so melee could improvise in a pinch (or continue milking the hell out of Utsu), but for the most part, gaining enmity in all tasks should be faster for the intended tanks even before factoring straight up +enmity gear.

[Fwahm]

There shouldn't be that huge of a disparity between those situations because if it's scaled with HP your melees will cap at approximately same point in the fight by mob hp%.

The only difference would be the pure time it would take to get to that percentage which can be fairly variable and indeed already is but this would in a way in a way this sort of help with too.

The point of an HP scaled enmity system is to eliminate or reduce the chance of hitting the cap in the first place, since you can code less enmity per damage for longer fights. If you expect to hit the cap every time anyway, then it's just plain worse than just setting damage to enmity to a single value, and balancing PLD and healing enmity based on that.

In an HP based system, enmity relationships between melees vs PLDs and healers will vary by huge amounts based on the foe's max HP, which isn't good design. Just raising the enmity cap to a value high enough that melees won't ever be hitting it on the highest HP content (and adjusting melee damage enmity downward if necessary) is a much better solution. After that, you can spend time on balancing melee damage vs tanks and healers without worrying about the cap.

The cap wouldn't ever matter if it's set high enough that a melee could solo DD an 18 man Naakual and not cap hate.

[NynJa]

Sigh.



I hope I made it obvious enough for you but just in case... They're delaying Ardor till another update because they're changing it from a buff to an enfeeble. They're still nerfing Rudra's because they're jerks and Vagary is apparently balanced around it being nerfed. They're still adding Ardor despite you constantly implying the contrary. I know you're the queen of over-racting but sheesh...

Because SE really knows a thing about properly balancing and nerfing things!!!!