Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Niiro]

Is there a reason for the enmity cap to even........exist?

[arus2001]

It does seem like one of those 50 cap relics where things like Haste only came from the spell and march. Yet, uncapped enmity in current generation scenarios really isn't any better and just invites SE to create even more hate reset mechanics.

[dasva]

The point of an HP scaled enmity system is to eliminate or reduce the chance of hitting the cap in the first place, since you can code less enmity per damage for longer fights. If you expect to hit the cap every time anyway, then it's just plain worse than just setting damage to enmity to a single value, and balancing PLD and healing enmity based on that.

In an HP based system, enmity relationships between melees vs PLDs and healers will vary by huge amounts based on the foe's max HP, which isn't good design. Just raising the enmity cap to a value high enough that melees won't ever be hitting it on the highest HP content (and adjusting melee damage enmity downward if necessary) is a much better solution. After that, you can spend time on balancing melee damage vs tanks and healers without worrying about the cap.

The cap wouldn't ever matter if it's set high enough that a melee could solo DD an 18 man Naakual and not cap hate.

That depends on how you balance it. You need to think larger or more specific. You set is so that you can hit the cap on every mob and leave it to the characters to figure out how to avoid that or do it on purpose. For example you want it so that it takes say 50% of the mobs hp to cap... yes that allows for 2 dds to cap enmity every fight but it also makes it easy so no one does or possibly more with enmity gear/buffs. Though personally I envisioned something slightly more complicated that I doubt would ever happen now given the current state of the game where it would be based on hp AND pt size. So like it would assume so many backline jobs who weren't getting dmg enmity and then be configured such that if all the dds had equal dps they'd barely cap by the time the mob died assuming they took absolutely no dmg. Add some +enmity gear and minimize dmg and maybe use some hate moves and you can cap do the opposite and never get close. But anyways if you don't have a real chance of hitting the cap than the system is even more broken than currently

Yeah that's kind of the point. To vary to make it so all dds can pull hate from the pld sometime during the fight but such that they wont guaranteedly pull it. Merely raising the cap a bunch so they can never cap will just lead to situations where the pld will cap and then afk. I mean yeah if your solution is to either make the tank always hold hate no matter what and a ton of extra balancings that would have to be calibrated mob by mob I suppose just raising the cap a bunch could work but that's something that even in there prime I doubt SE would spend so much work and effort on

I think what this is coming down to is a fundamental difference on how we think the hate system should work. I believe it should be work for those involved to keep it where they want it. A dynamic system where if you aren't careful anyone capable of high enmity actions/dmg can pull it but where if you are careful and attentive you should be able to keep it on the tank

[Xantavia]

Sigh.



I hope I made it obvious enough for you but just in case... They're delaying Ardor till another update because they're changing it from a buff to an enfeeble. They're still nerfing Rudra's because they're jerks and Vagary is apparently balanced around it being nerfed. They're still adding Ardor despite you constantly implying the contrary. I know you're the queen of over-racting but sheesh...

I do find it interesting that what you quoted seems to support the idea that SE treats SAM differently. Seems kind of curious that they only tested it with Great Katana when it comes to 2-handers. Must be afraid that war/drk/drg could benefit from it more than sam. tinfoil hat mode engaged.

[Kincard]

I do find it interesting that what you quoted seems to support the idea that SE treats SAM differently. Seems kind of curious that they only tested it with Great Katana when it comes to 2-handers. Must be afraid that war/drk/drg could benefit from it more than sam. tinfoil hat mode engaged.

The original text was

アーダーの性能調整を進めた結果、両手刀以外の両手武器への効果が十分ではなく、
与ダメージの平準化が十分に行われないと判断したため、現在アーダーの効果見直しを行っています。

Which says they tested Ardor and felt it was not sufficient for weapon classes other than Great Katana, which means the opposite of what you're saying, that they tested it and they think the effect wasn't strong enough on WAR DRK etc. You're free to say SE is shitty at balancing the game but don't be like Nynja and start making random shit up because you're mad they nerfed your favorite job.

[dasva]

Which says they tested Ardor and felt it was not sufficient for weapon classes other than Great Katana, which means the opposite of what you're saying, that they tested it and they think the effect wasn't strong enough on WAR DRK etc. You're free to say SE is shitty at balancing the game but don't be like Nynja and start making random shit up because you're mad they nerfed your favorite job.

This was kind of to be expected though. I mean it's going to be rather difficult to use a skillchain bonus to balance jobs when the main one you are trying to bring everyone else up to is the skillchain king. Plus it totally ignored anyone that doesn't melee. But it's good that they caught it before it went live and perhaps they will find a way to tool around with it so it works the last I read sounds like it might since they were straight up counting more players in involved...

Now if only the bonus basically didn't exist for selfskillchains and was very significant for 2+ people we might be more encouraged to do them on purpose and it could very well work (especially since a lot of jobs have ws that scale well now... just none have gotten the attention that thf has). swd war will make it's triumphant return! I just hope they make sure to remember pets and blu physical spells. Oh and obviously since it's a debuff now to make it reliably landable... maybe even dia like

[NynJa]

The original text was
Which says they tested Ardor and felt it was not sufficient for weapon classes other than Great Katana, which means the opposite of what you're saying, that they tested it and they think the effect wasn't strong enough on WAR DRK etc. You're free to say SE is shitty at balancing the game but don't be like Nynja and start making random shit up because you're mad they nerfed your favorite job.

You missed the memo where i said my mule has a koga and i made it a week before rudra usurped SAM. But sam needs to be number one because SE <3<3<3 sam.

The fact remains the initial excuse of nerfing the dagger ws's (seriously, stacked shark is shittier than evis) was because of ardor, now ardor isnt even being added. The safeface is epic.

[Martel]

That depends on how you balance it. You need to think larger or more specific. You set is so that you can hit the cap on every mob and leave it to the characters to figure out how to avoid that or do it on purpose. For example you want it so that it takes say 50% of the mobs hp to cap... yes that allows for 2 dds to cap enmity every fight but it also makes it easy so no one does or possibly more with enmity gear/buffs. Though personally I envisioned something slightly more complicated that I doubt would ever happen now given the current state of the game where it would be based on hp AND pt size. So like it would assume so many backline jobs who weren't getting dmg enmity and then be configured such that if all the dds had equal dps they'd barely cap by the time the mob died assuming they took absolutely no dmg. Add some +enmity gear and minimize dmg and maybe use some hate moves and you can cap do the opposite and never get close. But anyways if you don't have a real chance of hitting the cap than the system is even more broken than currently

Yeah that's kind of the point. To vary to make it so all dds can pull hate from the pld sometime during the fight but such that they wont guaranteedly pull it. Merely raising the cap a bunch so they can never cap will just lead to situations where the pld will cap and then afk. I mean yeah if your solution is to either make the tank always hold hate no matter what and a ton of extra balancings that would have to be calibrated mob by mob I suppose just raising the cap a bunch could work but that's something that even in there prime I doubt SE would spend so much work and effort on

I think what this is coming down to is a fundamental difference on how we think the hate system should work. I believe it should be work for those involved to keep it where they want it. A dynamic system where if you aren't careful anyone capable of high enmity actions/dmg can pull it but where if you are careful and attentive you should be able to keep it on the tank

If they made it work like that, DRG could actually work as a low enmity DD, cause High Jump and Super Jump would actually be sufficient to keep you below cap. Man, I think the last time I used jumps for enmity shedding purposes was... Wow, splitting heirs at 75 cap I think? DRG/NIN... don't pull hate off the PLD! /nostalgia trip.

[Fwahm]

That depends on how you balance it. You need to think larger or more specific. You set is so that you can hit the cap on every mob and leave it to the characters to figure out how to avoid that or do it on purpose. For example you want it so that it takes say 50% of the mobs hp to cap... yes that allows for 2 dds to cap enmity every fight but it also makes it easy so no one does or possibly more with enmity gear/buffs. Though personally I envisioned something slightly more complicated that I doubt would ever happen now given the current state of the game where it would be based on hp AND pt size. So like it would assume so many backline jobs who weren't getting dmg enmity and then be configured such that if all the dds had equal dps they'd barely cap by the time the mob died assuming they took absolutely no dmg. Add some +enmity gear and minimize dmg and maybe use some hate moves and you can cap do the opposite and never get close. But anyways if you don't have a real chance of hitting the cap than the system is even more broken than currently

Yeah that's kind of the point. To vary to make it so all dds can pull hate from the pld sometime during the fight but such that they wont guaranteedly pull it. Merely raising the cap a bunch so they can never cap will just lead to situations where the pld will cap and then afk. I mean yeah if your solution is to either make the tank always hold hate no matter what and a ton of extra balancings that would have to be calibrated mob by mob I suppose just raising the cap a bunch could work but that's something that even in there prime I doubt SE would spend so much work and effort on

I think what this is coming down to is a fundamental difference on how we think the hate system should work. I believe it should be work for those involved to keep it where they want it. A dynamic system where if you aren't careful anyone capable of high enmity actions/dmg can pull it but where if you are careful and attentive you should be able to keep it on the tank

The system I'm envisioning has there be no reachable cap for melees or for tanks, so it's not something to even consider. Then, have damage and non damage enmity sources be balanced so that equally skilled and geared melees and tanks would build enmity at similar speeds on typical endgame bosses. Damage taken enmity or decay would have to be messed with too just so a tank dying or getting hate reset doesn't make them fall behind forever in longer fights.

Of course, that wouldn't very feasible in practice either, even if implemented earlier. It would require constant enmity calculation adustments to keep it balanced whenever DDs get significantly stronger (119 weapons being released, skillchain update, WS updates, etc), which SE just isn't adept at. The wide disparity in melee DD potential is another practical roadblock.

It's just my vision of how the enmity system could be made to be as least broken as possible, even though SE doesn't have the balancing aptitude to pull it off.

[dasva]

If they made it work like that, DRG could actually work as a low enmity DD, cause High Jump and Super Jump would actually be sufficient to keep you below cap. Man, I think the last time I used jumps for enmity shedding purposes was... Wow, splitting heirs at 75 cap I think? DRG/NIN... don't pull hate off the PLD! /nostalgia trip.

That would be hilarious and I didn't even think of that... then again I suppose back at 75 that was the intended use considering most nm hps back then

[dasva]

The system I'm envisioning has there be no reachable cap for melees or for tanks, so it's not something to even consider. Then, have damage and non damage enmity sources be balanced so that equally skilled and geared melees and tanks would build enmity at similar speeds on typical endgame bosses. Damage taken enmity or decay would have to be messed with too just so a tank dying or getting hate reset doesn't make them fall behind forever in longer fights.

Of course, that wouldn't very feasible in practice either, even if implemented earlier. It would require constant enmity calculation adustments to keep it balanced whenever DDs get significantly stronger (119 weapons being released, skillchain update, WS updates, etc), which SE just isn't adept at. The wide disparity in melee DD potential is another practical roadblock.

It's just my vision of how the enmity system could be made to be as least broken as possible, even though SE doesn't have the balancing aptitude to pull it off.

Yeah my idea was more of a best fit that could be accomplished by todays SE skeleton crew. So it had to be a somewhat flexible system that didn't require a lot of work that mostly works (note things like self healing mobs would totally counteract the point of the system I made and enmity resets would basically end up with a system like you purposed) really though at this point I barely expect them to go the super easy route like the did the last couple of times and just changing a number here and there which wont really solve much expect maybe for specific mobs.

Though given SEs weird way of fixing one thing with something job specific to a job that isn't often used *cough ardor* I could totally see them doing something completely silly like making high jumps enmity reduction conal for drg main lol. All right everyone but the pld line up in front of the drg

[Atomic Skull]

Here's what has me worried. SE nerfs Rudras so that it has some stupid low ftp at 100% and only becomes decent at 200%+ TP. Then they nerf Mercy Stroke so it has the same ftp as a 100% Rudras because MS and Rudras currently have the same ftp at 100% tp. I hope they go back to the prebuff situation where Ms was stronger than Rudras until 200% TP but I doubt it because of SE being SE.

I have a bad feeling that after the nerf Rudras will be almost decent at like 200%-300% TP and all the other WS will be useless garbage.

[Sechs]

Is there a reason for the enmity cap to even........exist?

I'm not sure, I was wondering about that myself.
Let's try to play devil's advocate: if you were a designer what good could you possibly think to get from an enmity cap?

But at the same time I think the same could be said about the different types of enmity (VE and CE). Is there really a need to have both? I can see the utility of them here tbf, but given how most other games (all?) have a single type and things still work I don't see why they couldn't change things in FFXI. It actually works much better in other games. Can't think another MMO where tanking has been broken as in FFXI, especially this long.



Some proposed solutions would make enmity handling too easy for tanks.
Yes. And...?
I mean, I'm not advocating to trivialize enmity, but in most other MMOs IT IS completely trivialized and they still work fine, designers still manage to offer challenging content, arguably more challenging and more balanced than anything FFXI ever offered.
So what are we talking about again?

I could see it being an issue many years ago with all the open world content, but in the era of instanced stuff (or stuff that does not matter) would it really affect the game so much to trivialize enmity a bit? I don't think so. They would just need to plan fights in a different way and balance fights difficulty with that in mind.
It's a different approach but completely possible, they are just refusing to go that route, period.

[Sechs]

If they made it work like that, DRG could actually work as a low enmity DD

Yeah, would be cool.
Wonder how things would work for NIN. With Innin up and the new spell they can ride a perma enmity-50.
Altough that doesn't help to shed the gained enmity, it would just give you more time (compared to other DDs) before you reach cap. Could be fine for short fights I guess.
We have to thank CE for that btw.
If CE didn't exist, or if CE was somehow affected by -/+ enmity (that is, if it diminished over time with a formula that takes enmity into account) then a DD with oerma -50 enmity could make a difference.

I feel CE's existance is part of the problem.
In other games you can just hold off damage, use worse damage rotations for a bit, or in FFXI terms, you could avoid using WSs/JAs for a while, and help the tank get better enmity.
In FFXI this is useless because once you've capped your CE it's not gonna go down unless you receive damage from the target or someone uses some specific JAs on you.

Seriously, once again, do we really still need CE as it is now? It was a cool mechanics which added depth to the game etc, but if it has to play such a big role into making enmity the mess it currently is, wouldn't we be better off without CE? (or with a CE that goes under different rules at least)




To me the most annoying thing about this, is that they refuse to even acknowledge the issue. They just say "things are working as intended, RNG is the only job meant to control enmity, otherwise bring a THF for Accomplice" etc. If I saw them acknowledging this problem, if I saw them trying seriously to fix it, I know it would feel a bit better regardless of the results.
But this way it makes you feel like it's not even worth bothering to hope for enmity to ever be fixed.

[NynJa]

Here's what has me worried. SE nerfs Rudras so that it has some stupid low ftp at 100% and only becomes decent at 200%+ TP. Then they nerf Mercy Stroke so it has the same ftp as a 100% Rudras because MS and Rudras currently have the same ftp at 100% tp. I hope they go back to the prebuff situation where Ms was stronger than Rudras until 200% TP but I doubt it because of SE being SE.

I have a bad feeling that after the nerf Rudras will be almost decent at like 200%-300% TP and all the other WS will be useless garbage.

Like I said to anyone expecting SE to nerf properly: It's never happened in the 13 years of this games existence, that SE had nerfed something properly.

[Ligray]

From 4gamer update article:

Su2:
http://www.4gamer.net/games/005/G000...070/TN/007.jpg

Unity:
http://www.4gamer.net/games/005/G000...070/TN/013.jpghttp://www.4gamer.net/games/005/G000...070/TN/014.jpg

Material for empyrean reforage:
http://www.4gamer.net/games/005/G000...070/TN/010.jpg

http://www.4gamer.net/games/005/G000546/20150323070/

[Sechs]

Like I said to anyone expecting SE to nerf properly: It's never happened in the 13 years of this games existence, that SE had nerfed something properly.

Ukko's and Vsmite's nerfs weren't perfect, but they were kinda okaysh (makes me wonder why they didn't undo them during the WS overhaul they did recently though).

[Atomic Skull]

Ukko's and Vsmite's nerfs weren't perfect, but they were kinda okaysh (makes me wonder why they didn't undo them during the WS overhaul they did recently though).

Because they only buffed 1H WS and those are 2H and H2H WS.

[Damane]

Like I said to anyone expecting SE to nerf properly: It's never happened in the 13 years of this games existence, that SE had nerfed something properly.

dunno the embrava and PD nerf were done properly.
As for Ws nerfs and buffs they have allways gone mostly beyond the breaking line in sone rare occasions.. They either overbuffed (rarely) or overnerfed (lately tough also rarely the case. Its usually only 1-2 WS that overcross the line

[Atomic Skull]

Material for empyrean reforage:
http://www.4gamer.net/games/005/G000...070/TN/010.jpg

Bad move not making it Rare/Ex. I hope they at least require a temp key item from clearing the areas for each piece.