Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Hitou]

Cleaving doesn't make stupid players it just gets them to 99 faster. I get not wanting to deal with crappy players but exp is too easy even just soloing with trusts today for the method to matter. You can buy skill up books for sparks or even the AH from people dumping all of them. Exping the old slow way of 04-05 didn't do anything to make good players. Sure you might have capped skills by the time you were 75 (I donno about others but I still had to cap a lot of skills after hitting 75 and never capped parrying at all till the abyssea era) but that doesn't mean you'd be able to hit anything/land magic. That takes gear too and idiots aren't going to ask what they should be wearing they're just gonna go with whatever is cheapest or looks cool despite a thing called lockstyle.

If you want to avoid playing with crappy players try vetting them before inviting them. If they won't listen to advice boot them and let everyone know they suck and to avoid them till they get their act together. Don't cry because abyssea let them in your sandbox a few months early.

[Hitou]

So much QQ in this thread.

Didn't see it mentioned, but anyone else notice that trusts are being used in those fight pics? Guess it's not overly surprising. :/

Sorry to double post but I found this really ironic. No hard feelings, Mal.

[Malithar]

Sorry to double post but I found this really ironic. No hard feelings, Mal.

All good, was more the let down of hope for it being a lasting endgame zone which they haven't allowed trusts in so far. Not to say it can't still be that but also allow trusts, guess we'll know in two days. And idk about Tenzen, but the Malboro screen had Lion and Ulmia.

[arus2001]

Wouldn't put it past SE to not allow Trusts in the area until you beat Rhapsodies.

[urat]

Players not knowing about (good) food or other mechanics isn't Abyssea's fault. XI is absolutely terrible about teaching its players what do to without trial and error. Seriously, I've known new players who didn't even know how to rest to recover HP/MP. They thought they had to run back to their MH, or worse, accept the eventual death. So, yeah, while something like Cursna can remove Curse and it's actually listed to such in the description, knowing what enemy moves inflict the Curse status falls into trial and error. The fact many, many, many TP moves silently carry a status effect on top of damage is not the fault of n00b healers. If negative effect icons hovered by our names, it'd be one thing, but they don't.

Things like underleveled skills is just an archaic design that has somehow persisted to this day. You're right, it is problematic, but at the same time, just auto-attacking a mob hoping for some 0.x text isn't teaching anyone a valuable skill. It's something SE really should've axed long ago.

Very fair points, however I will say that a LOT of that info is learned through the 1-75 grind. How to rest, for example, is pretty quickly picked up partying. Same goes for pretty much every other skill.

AFKing in a cleave party teaches you nothing, and results in more and more unskilled players in the playerbase. I just feel that having a lv 70 requirement to enter abyssea would've done the job. The mobs were designed for lv 70+ players to fight, everything drops lv 70+ gear, the quests all give lv 70+ rewards, there is 0 reason to be able to enter abyssea pre lv 70 other than leaching exp.

This would've literally solved every single abyssea problem. No more cleave parties for gil, nerfing RMT. No more RMT mules able to trade in blinkers until they grind the mule to 70 (and without cleaving, that actually requires work again)

Such a simple solution, so straightforward. Not implementing it shows SE didn't want us to have fun, they just wanted cash. See, the lv 30 cap made SE more money because when people realised they could cleave their characters up to lv 75+ easily, they'd resub to get their character caught up and start playing again.

Second, being able to cleave a mule to end game level means players started buying and keeping mules to multibox. You know who benefits from a system designed to encourage players to use multiple accounts at once? SE really likes that.

Its pretty obvious, and highlights my original point. Abyssea wasn't designed as a "next tier of end game for you to grind"

It was a "here's another thwack on the cash cow, lets make this get as many people to resub for as long as possible"

[Kanriel]

Abyssea was the death knell of FFXI, it was designed for people to have their fun and be done with the game and move on, which, unsurprisingly, most people did. No other event in the game caused so many long-time players to finally quit for good.

I quit originally in early WotG times. There was already a few major LS deaths happening on my server from their major players quitting the game. By the time I heard abyssea was even happening FFXI had been so far from my memory the only reason I didn't wonder how it was still alive was because EQ was still alive. The game died a slow but steady death through WotG's time. Abyssea was maybe an extra kicker, but Abyssea came YEARS after many older players were already on their way out.

[arus2001]

This would've literally solved every single abyssea problem. No more cleave parties for gil, nerfing RMT. No more RMT mules able to trade in blinkers until they grind the mule to 70 (and without cleaving, that actually requires work again)

You're just fishing for a speed bump. Instead of people going in at 30, they'd be buying astral burns or syncing to Colibri in E.Ron[s] or Woodlands. Woo, you robbed people of a few extra hours. None of these especially teach anything, either, with colibri even encouraging people not to eat food if they wanted to save some gil... or even try to SC. Time to let go of the embitterment, really. MMOs are a giant exercise of doing as little as possible to get as much as possible. And even once Abyssea was a thing, the game was quite noticeably top-heavy, making mid-level grinding an even greater chore if you didn't partake of the above. When I personally partook, I never paid a dime to a third party. It was always friends helping friends, sometimes being the killer, other times the leecher.

[Isiolia]

AFKing in a cleave party teaches you nothing, and results in more and more unskilled players in the playerbase. I just feel that having a lv 70 requirement to enter abyssea would've done the job. The mobs were designed for lv 70+ players to fight, everything drops lv 70+ gear, the quests all give lv 70+ rewards, there is 0 reason to be able to enter abyssea pre lv 70 other than leaching exp.

This would've literally solved every single abyssea problem. No more cleave parties for gil, nerfing RMT. No more RMT mules able to trade in blinkers until they grind the mule to 70 (and without cleaving, that actually requires work again)

I think this would have been the case had Abyssea been implemented later. At the time, however, the Trust system wasn't there yet, they hadn't doubled mob XP, hadn't implemented the quick travel systems, and so on.

The general problems that are introduced are largely a byproduct of FFXI's basic design elements that haven't been changed. Skillups don't keep up with XP'ing jobs up with Trusts either, because the system is too slow. There aren't mechanisms to provide good gear, or teach macroing it for that matter. Players that don't look to external resources won't get that.

I don't disagree that literally sitting there doing nothing is the worst case scenario, and too many players were content to do that without the skill/knowledge to use the burned up job properly.

However, I think Abyssea was simply designed to accommodate anyone and everyone given that entire servers would be wanting to go XP with the cap increases. The system may have been too generous, but for what the game had at the time, it makes a lot of sense.

[urat]

You're just fishing for a speed bump. Instead of people going in at 30, they'd be buying astral burns or syncing to Colibri in E.Ron[s] or Woodlands. Woo, you robbed people of a few extra hours. None of these especially teach anything, either, with colibri even encouraging people not to eat food if they wanted to save some gil... or even try to SC. Time to let go of the embitterment, really. MMOs are a giant exercise of doing as little as possible to get as much as possible. And even once Abyssea was a thing, the game was quite noticeably top-heavy, making mid-level grinding an even greater chore if you didn't partake of the above. When I personally partook, I never paid a dime to a third party. It was always friends helping friends, sometimes being the killer, other times the leecher.

This is the issue with ff11's design, at the core.

Like most MMOs, ffxi has its 'fun' designed around the goal. It is essentially a large scale skinner box.

Work -> results that let you do 'work' better.

The -> is supposed to be the 'fun' in a game. When you play chess, the last move you make for a checkmate is a small portion of the fun, the real fun generally occured during the mid game when you are battling your opponent for board position.

In 11, the -> is 90% waiting. Waiting for HNMs to spawn. Going 0/10 on a drop. Waiting for your boat to arrive. Waiting for JP midnight to get another point/stone/tag. Waiting for the event to start. Waiting for someone else to kill their NM so you can pop yors. Waiting for the ??? to spawn.

In the A->B process, -> involves most of the time spent on ffxi, but B holds almost all of the 'fun'. "OH shit it finally dropped' 'oh shit, KB popped!', talking to NPC to pick up your item, turning in your magian trial, etc etc.

Designing content where the -> process is fun results in a well received game.

The very fact that people decided to afk play the game for 12 hours to circumvent the 1->99 process shows how fucked up 11s design is.

Literally speaking, someone else playing the game for you is more fun than playing the game yourself in ff11, especially levelling.

Thats the core of the issue, and until SE can figure out how to fix that, ffxi will slowly fade away.

People designing RPGs need to realise that levelling isn't fun, and makes RPGs have shitty replay value. Grinding is boring, and only done if necessary. Consider this: How many MMORPGs have you heard of where people found methods to quickly cheat their way to the top level, then proceeded to abuse the fuck out of it?

Pretty much every single one ever. If you hand a player a game and say "the goal is x, and also there's a button on the side that automatically puts you at x without having to play the game" and your player pokes your game once or twice, then proceeds to just push the button... that means your game is shitty and unfun

[Spira]

Doesn't the very fact that you mention Hnms (and the rest like travel times) invalidate the relevance of what ure saying. You're saying these are core issues in FFXI TODAY when they are clearly not.

Making the A to B process fun is something they have been working at. And they've made it so much better. QoL changes and no daily lockouts are among some of those features. But remember this. Ure probably saying this from the perspective of someone who's already at B. And a lot of those people who are at B won't want to do the whole thing again, whether from themselves or for others. You can say it's a case of too little too late for these people, but for each new event this A to B repeats itself and more is being done to bring the fun in each time.

With trusts in the mix, I don't see so much of a problem with leveling as there is with the mindset that people want to reach the top in the faStest way possible. There's little they can really do about that tho. MMO content is always progressive after all.

But there actually is a way to solve all these problems from the ground up anyway. It's called the FFXI native smartphone app.

[Xantavia]

The very fact that people decided to afk play the game for 12 hours to circumvent the 1->99 process shows how fucked up 11s design is.

I'd actually put that on the players who feel that doing endgame stuff is all that matters. I actually like the thought process behind the level-capped zones of CoP. It gave a roadmap on how to advance along it, while leveling in between missions. In theory, a new player could start the expansion at level 30, and play through it on their way to level cap. I play slowly enough that lower level gear drops don't get outdated right away. I suppose it all comes down to how people prefer to play the game.

[Sechs]

All good, was more the let down of hope for it being a lasting endgame zone which they haven't allowed trusts in so far. Not to say it can't still be that but also allow trusts, guess we'll know in two days. And idk about Tenzen, but the Malboro screen had Lion and Ulmia.

Considering the main perks for completing the RoV missions will be using more trusts, it would be strange if they didn't allow you to use them in the new RoV zone, wouldn't it?
They might put some limitations on their use at first but honestly I wouldn't count on it.

The path they've undertaken is pretty clear to me =/

[Sechs]

The very fact that people decided to afk play the game for 12 hours to circumvent the 1->99 process shows how fucked up 11s design is.

Clearly being afk for 7 hours, sometimes multiple times in multiple zones, every day, for a slight chance of claiming a monster that might or might not pop was a much better design, inorite?

[ColenzoRidesAgain]

This is the issue with ff11's design, at the core.

Like most MMOs, ffxi has its 'fun' designed around the goal. It is essentially a large scale skinner box.

Work -> results that let you do 'work' better.

The -> is supposed to be the 'fun' in a game. When you play chess, the last move you make for a checkmate is a small portion of the fun, the real fun generally occured during the mid game when you are battling your opponent for board position.

In 11, the -> is 90% waiting. Waiting for HNMs to spawn. Going 0/10 on a drop. Waiting for your boat to arrive. Waiting for JP midnight to get another point/stone/tag. Waiting for the event to start. Waiting for someone else to kill their NM so you can pop yors. Waiting for the ??? to spawn.

In the A->B process, -> involves most of the time spent on ffxi, but B holds almost all of the 'fun'. "OH shit it finally dropped' 'oh shit, KB popped!', talking to NPC to pick up your item, turning in your magian trial, etc etc.

Designing content where the -> process is fun results in a well received game.

The very fact that people decided to afk play the game for 12 hours to circumvent the 1->99 process shows how fucked up 11s design is.

Literally speaking, someone else playing the game for you is more fun than playing the game yourself in ff11, especially levelling.

Thats the core of the issue, and until SE can figure out how to fix that, ffxi will slowly fade away.

People designing RPGs need to realise that levelling isn't fun, and makes RPGs have shitty replay value. Grinding is boring, and only done if necessary. Consider this: How many MMORPGs have you heard of where people found methods to quickly cheat their way to the top level, then proceeded to abuse the fuck out of it?

Pretty much every single one ever. If you hand a player a game and say "the goal is x, and also there's a button on the side that automatically puts you at x without having to play the game" and your player pokes your game once or twice, then proceeds to just push the button... that means your game is shitty and unfun

Naw, your opinion is shit. People will abuse any game regardless of if its fun or not. People who know they can get an edge doing something without being banned or otherwise penalized will do it. Hell, people will do it either way. What needs to happen is with FFXI is for the dumb shit that comes with leveling to be removed. Like skilling up for example. Skilling up is just an out dated idea in a game where you can level extremely fast. They have worked to make it easier to skill up but it really just needs to be removed. I doubt any new player would want to deal with that dumb crap.

Genkais need to be removed too, having arbitrary speed bumps in leveling these days serves no purpose and probably serves no other purpose but to irritate a new player to the game. They actually felt extremely rewarding to get past when the game actually moved at a slower pace and pretty much anything that you did felt rewarding. For the time spent leveling back then it felt great going through all the motions to have a strong character.

Now whats the point? For what reason? Maybe that will be taken care of but probably not.

My point is that all the motions you went through in the past to have a strong character are sort of whatever these days with how accessible everything is. Anybody that plays an MMO must expect some level of grind in whatever they're doing anyways, unless you're a casual brain dead moron that enjoys guild wars 2. Thats a whole different post though, those people are simply the worst.

[Sephiran]

Cleaving doesn't make stupid players...try vetting them before inviting them.

This and doubly so since Adoulin came out. The evolution of jobs with the advent of item levels makes the walk to 99 almost irrelevant. Now, if they allow players to leech item level equipment, that might be a different story. Regardless, one reason I actually don't mind item levels so much is they they do allow an on-ramp for newer players (RoE gear) that will allow them to attain pretty good gear easily enough (Delve I and Alluvion II gear).

There are players that I know (usually support role job mains) that I've gotten in my parties for content level 119+ events that had literally never done the event before. They wind up clearing first try and looking like veterans because their career WHM and BRD skills are applicable everywhere. I just need to tell them to do little things like Sacrifice before curing on the Perdurable Raptor (general example).

[Damane]

@urat: have you even played 11 in the last 4 years? because all the things you said dont account at all for today. kinda baffled here

[Ligray]

4Gamer update article with Trailer:

http://www.4gamer.net/games/005/G000546/20150512038/

[Sechs]

Yeah seen the video like 1 hr ago, waiting for a version with english text now.
Unexpectedly I'm getting a really good vibe from the RoV stuff.
Hope it won't disappoint me...

[Damane]

am i spoting new weapon models with possible new legendary weapons? (well i doubt new legendary weapons will be introduced, alluvion weapons fooled us once allready!)

[stamos]

Looks like GEO roll is enhancing magic duration + and RUN is magic evasion +