Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Vanderleest]

Perhaps I'm too distracted by work (who does work at work?), but what is the MNK casting @0:42?

[Sirious]

A trust, obv

[Vanderleest]

A trust, obv

Right, I forget that uses the summoning motions.

[BerenTebogo]

Urat writing literal novels about how the game isn't worth his time.

[Sechs]

I hope there will be a lot of mixed jobs in those sets.
Kinda like Alluvion Yorcia ones. A lot of jobs are on multiple sets, I liked that.

Hated that some of my mages couldn't use Gendewitha and some couldn't use Hagondes, and so on.
Yorcia jobs listing model is so much better imho.

[dasva]

While I do like alluvion better for a lot of jobs it left some in crazy good places and some in weird spots. Blu gets 2 mage sets and a light dd set while Run only gets taeon... no dt/pdt for your Mr tank. No enhancing duration for the job that is pushed as using enhancing instead of healing magic to help tank. Then there's how say some jobs namely bst who is often on heavy could also use taeon for some great cloudsplitter but war cloudsplitter and pld for various things was stuff in the heaviest armor which had much lower mab caps.

[Damane]

While I do like alluvion better for a lot of jobs it left some in crazy good places and some in weird spots. Blu gets 2 mage sets and a light dd set while Run only gets taeon... no dt/pdt for your Mr tank. No enhancing duration for the job that is pushed as using enhancing instead of healing magic to help tank. Then there's how say some jobs namely bst who is often on heavy could also use taeon for some great cloudsplitter but war cloudsplitter and pld for various things was stuff in the heaviest armor which had much lower mab caps.

alluvion was the reseting field to bring everything back into how stuff was pre adoulin state.

BLU basicly got for everything they had previously now an ilvl version: cure potency set with Telchine, a melee set with Taeon, a nukieng set with helios.
However helios for BLU went a bit overboard considering with all the augments on it and with the addition of some BLU spells (Subduction anyone?)

The same applies to the mages, Taeon allows now every mage to sport an ilvl cure potency set, even geo and blm much like pre adoulin

compared to pre adoulin i think BST gained alot more in terms of gear choices with alluvion, just simply by the fact how many different augments they can pick for themself and their pets. The stats pet jobs can gain now were unthinkable pre Adoulin. Obviously other jobs gained some unique stuff too, but the step in power is nowhere near compared to what pet jobs gained from alluvion.

[dasva]

compared to pre adoulin i think BST gained alot more in terms of gear choices with alluvion, just simply by the fact how many different augments they can pick for themself and their pets. The stats pet jobs can gain now were unthinkable pre Adoulin. Obviously other jobs gained some unique stuff too, but the step in power is nowhere near compared to what pet jobs gained from alluvion.

This definitely. Not even counting master stuff this is the first time we got much in the way of pet augments. Even when smn got a ton with skirmish 1.0 bst and pup got nothing... and now we got almost all the relevant stats. Heck outside of a couple of all jobs pieces first time bst got pet mab I think. We have bsts with 4-6 full sets of taeon/arco JUST for their pets. Combine with the ready update it's gotten kinda crazy and gil intensive. It has completely change bst into a more smn like job without the buffs or mp completely with -recast preready sets and then midready sets

[Kuishen]

Isn't the problem with NIN tanking currently their complete lack of magic damage mitigation and the fact that the most devastating TP moves go through shadows anyways? Granted I haven't played NIN since abyssea but everything recent I've tried to /nin on has been completely worthless save for a couple high tier bcnms. Adjusting Utsusemi enmity isn't gonna do shit if the above 2 problems aren't addressed.

[Tarage]

That girl looks awfully Phoenix with her skirt huh...

[dasva]

Isn't the problem with NIN tanking currently their complete lack of magic damage mitigation and the fact that the most devastating TP moves go through shadows anyways? Granted I haven't played NIN since abyssea but everything recent I've tried to /nin on has been completely worthless save for a couple high tier bcnms. Adjusting Utsusemi enmity isn't gonna do shit if the above 2 problems aren't addressed.

Pretty much yeah. Sure utsesmi can take care of single target spells too but all magical moves go right thru and pretty much all moves and even a lot of regular attacks are AoE now. Aren't much of a tank if you can't mitigate hardly any more dmg than any other DD

[Malithar]

Isn't the problem with NIN tanking currently their complete lack of magic damage mitigation and the fact that the most devastating TP moves go through shadows anyways? Granted I haven't played NIN since abyssea but everything recent I've tried to /nin on has been completely worthless save for a couple high tier bcnms. Adjusting Utsusemi enmity isn't gonna do shit if the above 2 problems aren't addressed.

Depending on what they adjust, it may fix it IMO. As it stands, DDs can't hold hate against someone casting haste or debuffs, much less curing. Kinda made the unfortunate situation that a tank was required, or your casters bucked up and idled in -DT with the melee. Most jobs can already survive most damaging attacks in the game as long as they're geared correctly. Trying to turn Nin into Pld or Run is just silly. If SE can shape Nin up to be a "DD tank" and forget this whole notion of them being a tank, then I think it'd put them in a good position to be the melee that can hold the mob when you don't really need an actual tank. Maybe they'll eventually make similar adjustments to a few other jobs to fill a similar roll, like War or Mnk.

[Fwahm]

If your melees can't hold hate off of your mages because of the enmity patch, then either you need better melees, you need to give them proper buffs, or it's something that hits so hard you want a tank anyway.

Anyway, if the enmity change is significant, I think Ninjas might become more popular on mid tier stuff, like Unity NMs, where the bajillion shadows nin gets with empy armor and San mattee. Normal melees can tank most of them, but if nin could reliably keep hate off of dedicated DDs, then it'd make the healer's job easier while only taking a moderate kill speed penalty. We'll have to see.

[Insanecyclone]

eng ver

[Sechs]

Isn't the problem with NIN tanking currently their complete lack of magic damage mitigation and the fact that the most devastating TP moves go through shadows anyways? Granted I haven't played NIN since abyssea but everything recent I've tried to /nin on has been completely worthless save for a couple high tier bcnms. Adjusting Utsusemi enmity isn't gonna do shit if the above 2 problems aren't addressed.

More than just "a couple high tier BCNMS", but your description is pretty accurate.
Which is another reason why I said addressing Utsusemi enmity generation (and I wonder... why just utsusemi and not all ninjutsu?) isn't gonna be the right choice (likely won't be enough for tanking, and will likely be negative when not trying to tank and using utsu for defensive reasons).

Yet NIN's enmity generation is the only "tanking problem" SE acknowledged so far, so even if it doesn't make complete sense at least it's coherent with their (wrong! ;p) ideas.
They need to fix Yonin/Innin! I'm tired of saying it lol

[Sechs]

Kinda made the unfortunate situation that a tank was required

No offense Malithar, as I have great respect for you, but why is that?
A lot of people reasons like that and I'm not getting it.

It's "unfortunate" that you need a tank to do content in a game that's based around the concept that there are roles and each job fits one (or multiple) of those roles?
I dunno, is it "unfortunate" that you need healers too to kill stuff?
Is it "unfortunate" that you need DDs?
Oh noes, I actually need a job that does damage to kill this NM, I was hoping to kill it with a bunch of healers casting divine caress and C4 on it.
I mean, what's so "unfortunate" and strange that you need a tank to be, you know, tanking monsters instead of letting DDs tank?


Allowing DDs to be used as tank here and there it's ok, it's part of the FFXI's destructured charm, but THAT should be the exception, not the other way around.
Needing a tank to tank stuff should be the "normal" thing.

[BerenTebogo]

Needing a BST or three now is the normal thing.

Long live the new normal.

[Sephiran]

Please feel free to bash me but I don't see how increasing the enmity generated from Utsusemi is going to solve Ninja's tanking problems.
If anything it looks to me it's just gonna break other things currently working.
What about NIN using Innin and casting Utsusemi while DDing? They do NOT want increased enmity from Utsusemi.
What about DDs going /NIN? They probably do NOT want that either.

There is one and only one way to fix tanking issues on a job with two separate roles like Ninja, and that's by enhancing/changing/tweaking how its stances work (Yonin/Innin).
Making them undispellable, no longer decaying over time and giving them different passive traits (like "increased enmity generated from casting ninjutsu spells" to Yonin) would work.
Any other thing applying to Ninja in general and not to Yonin specifically, is going to break something even if it fixes something else.
Bad design choice, imho. Won't change a thing.

Simple, Sechs. They bind the Utsusemi adjustments to the status of Yonin and Innin exclusively--and only let them take effect when under the effects of either. Ninjas should thus receive enmity modulation effects only if they have one of these effects active, regardless of its current state of decay. Since the sub-job logic will be (likely) inherited from the main job, there will be no change to the effects of enmity of those subbing NIN.

[Maurauc]

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http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/00...cs1w1_298x.jpghttp://dengekionline.com/elem/000/00...cs1w1_298x.jpg
http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/00...cs1w1_298x.jpghttp://dengekionline.com/elem/000/00...cs1w1_298x.jpg


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Spoiler: show

Thanks Reseph for posting on Reddit.

[D44kpunk]

Urat writing literal novels about how the game isn't worth his time.

most of what he said is true though, tldr; people wouldn't cheat if it wasn't boring