Dev Tracker: Discussion

[urat]

It says about an hour but we shall see. Biggest update download timewise we've had in awhile

Getting an entire zone worth of stuff and lots of new gear, seems reasonable.

I guess escha is gonna be abyssea 2: electric boogaloo, based on this update size.

[Bukadan]

i really hope not, i hope its completely different from abyssea, just using the same zone reskin deal. i hate everything about abbyssea lol

[Draylo]

i really hope not, i hope its completely different from abyssea, just using the same zone reskin deal. i hate everything about abbyssea lol

So dumb, let me guess, you hated how people leveled to 99 w/o learning their jobs fighting 50 million colibri.

[Bukadan]

i will admit i quit before it came back just as vw was starting, but i have hated everything about those zones and what they stood for lol

[Hitou]

Prepare to be disappointed then. Based on what little we know it already sounds pretty much the same as abyssea but without the time limit perhaps.

[Trumpy]

Is this the part where everyone argues about how they hated/loved abyssea for pages instead of Dev Tracker discussing?

Feels like this is gonna be another one of those "put the update notes up when the game becomes playable." I liked it better when they put the notes up right off. no reason to make us wait.

[Draylo]

Don't have to, posts like that just make me roll my eyes so hard.

[Tarage]

You don't like Abyssea? Cool. No one gives a shit. Moving on.

[dasva]

Prepare to be disappointed then. Based on what little we know it already sounds pretty much the same as abyssea but without the time limit perhaps.

Well in a way there are harder time limits now possibly. Assuming the new atmas are decent people will be zoning out then back in every hour or so.


Also finished downloading

[urat]

So dumb, let me guess, you hated how people leveled to 99 w/o learning their jobs fighting 50 million colibri.

Yes, I actually really genuinely think the 1-75 grind partying actually taught players to suck a lot less, and I genuinely think players who got cleaved 30-99 were weaker players by a large margin than the ones who grinded their jobs the old fashioned way.

Getting into a cleave party and afking for 12 hours and becoming lv 99 taught players literally 0 skills. Literally nothing was learned doing this.

If you actually think players forming dozens and dozens of varying parties to kill monsters from 30-75, skillchaining, interacting with a wide variety of different players who all had different tips and tricks, being forced to make macros, etc etc, teaches a player nothing... well I dont know what to say to that.

You think a cleaved thf knows how to properly sata their shit? You think a cleaved whm is able to handle keeping a party alive AND heal people in the off party easily? You think a cleaved bard will know how to keep up their song rotations? You think a cleaved sam will have any fucking clue how to effectively solo SC?

No way in hell are any of the above going to be able to walk out of a cleave party and have any clue how to play, every job in 11 has very fundamentally different skills. You think a cleaved monk is gonna be able to handle the responsibility of soloing matamata in a delve run? Probably not. Probably cant even handle mantra order.

I will never ever think a cleaved player has even remotely close to the level of a skill a grinded player has when they both ding 99. The cleaved player learned 0 skills while afking, the grinded player learned hundreds of nuances of their job during the grind, has made macros for their job, figured their gearswaps out, learned how their JAs worked, knows the list of all their JAs off the top of their head and also now has learned the muscle memory of where to click on their JA list/macros.

You take a freshly cleaved bard, who goes to the AH and buys all their songs, you think they just automatically know "yup, if Ido my rotation its ctrl1->ctrl2, then run 15 feet to the mages and position and alt1->alt2" or whatever? That shit takes practice to be able to eyeball your song distance.

No way will a freshly cleaved bard have any fucking clue how any of that works.

I don't care if you cleave to 99, but if you do, go learn how to play your job before you join my runs and ungimp your skills. I got my smn cleaved up to 99 and I would never dream of trying to bring it to ANY end game run for someone else. I have no issue admitting my smn has gimp skills and I have little practice on it since I cleaved it. I openly admit it.

I got my monk/dnc/thf/brd all grinded up the old way, and I am fully aware of the fact I play those jobs WAY better than my summoner, because I have all the little muscle memories from hours spent killing colibri.

Its like shooting hoops. Sure, you can pick a ball up and get it in the hoop first try, no prob. But it takes thousands of shots to get that natural, lightning fast ability to just do it without thinking about it. Same goes for those thousands of colibri. It hones your ability to do shit like naturally keep your JA buffs up because you just feel when they're gonna be up on recast soon. Keeping shadows up takes practice, stun rotations take practice, it all takes practice. Killing thousands of colibri give you the practice so when you go into end game with new shit to learn, you already know all the basic shit of your job like the back of your hand so you don't even need to think about how to rotate songs and boost->ws and Sata and stun rotate and keep shadows up, by now that shit is second nature.

So instead now you can focus on all the new stuff, and learn it quick. Savy?

[Draylo]

Oh my goodness.

[ColenzoRidesAgain]

abyssea was fun and different and I enjoyed it. I don't know how you could really hate it other than the fact that leveling was really fast. It was definitely a lot more fun than doing gay ass sea or camping hnms.

[Bukadan]

nah draylo, the content in the zones in bad enough, atmas brews ect, but the quality of the players you meet in certain settings (pugs ect) is definitely questionable and abyssea could (i think reasonably too) be seen as a likely reason.

edit: i know youve made shout groups, or joined the kind of shout groups where you could see what im talking about draylo lol. i mean you wont find me shouting. lol

[urat]

abyssea was fun and different and I enjoyed it. I don't know how you could really hate it other than the fact that leveling was really fast. It was definitely a lot more fun than doing gay ass sea or camping hnms.

Magian trials and abyssea design were awesome. Most people hate on abyssea for three things.

#1: It was the only content worth doing, and SE put time locks on it despite literally everything youd ever want coming from it.
#2: Cleave parties increased noob density in the game. I was fine with normal grinding in abyssea, that was cool and being able to exp farm as an alliance was really fun. Cleaving was abused by RMTs a LOT and caused a lot of mayhem.
#3: Chocobo blinkers. By the time SE nerfed this the damage was done and a LOT of inflation occurred.

Outside of this, abyssea was cool. If SE had nerfed cleaving (I already stated I felt the best answer was to have a lv 70 req on abyssea, not lv 30), and nerfed blinkers fast, I doubt there would be even close to as much animosity towards abyssea.

[Damane]

oh god not this shit again pls, shut up everyone, we had that converstion allready 9430239203 times

[Sechs]

Well in a way there are harder time limits now possibly. Assuming the new atmas are decent people will be zoning out then back in every hour or so.

I agree, if they end up being very powerful then Dasva is absolutely right. (supposing there is no way to extend that time limit etc).
Personally I hope they end up being very small/negligible bonuses, maybe one at a time etc.
Abyssea Atma system was too powerful but sustainable during Visions. Things kinda started to break down once Scars came out. I'll admit it was fun, but it wasn't healthy for the game and its system, imho.

So yeah, really really really hope it won't be the same thing as Atmas.

[Trumpy]

please leave the stupid repeating record debate about abyssea out of this thread. It gets fuckin nowhere and shits up the thread (or make a thread for that debate if it really gives you that much of a boner).

[ColenzoRidesAgain]

Yes, I actually really genuinely think the 1-75 grind partying actually taught players to suck a lot less, and I genuinely think players who got cleaved 30-99 were weaker players by a large margin than the ones who grinded their jobs the old fashioned way.

Getting into a cleave party and afking for 12 hours and becoming lv 99 taught players literally 0 skills. Literally nothing was learned doing this.

If you actually think players forming dozens and dozens of varying parties to kill monsters from 30-75, skillchaining, interacting with a wide variety of different players who all had different tips and tricks, being forced to make macros, etc etc, teaches a player nothing... well I dont know what to say to that.

You think a cleaved thf knows how to properly sata their shit? You think a cleaved whm is able to handle keeping a party alive AND heal people in the off party easily? You think a cleaved bard will know how to keep up their song rotations? You think a cleaved sam will have any fucking clue how to effectively solo SC?

No way in hell are any of the above going to be able to walk out of a cleave party and have any clue how to play, every job in 11 has very fundamentally different skills. You think a cleaved monk is gonna be able to handle the responsibility of soloing matamata in a delve run? Probably not. Probably cant even handle mantra order.

I will never ever think a cleaved player has even remotely close to the level of a skill a grinded player has when they both ding 99. The cleaved player learned 0 skills while afking, the grinded player learned hundreds of nuances of their job during the grind, has made macros for their job, figured their gearswaps out, learned how their JAs worked, knows the list of all their JAs off the top of their head and also now has learned the muscle memory of where to click on their JA list/macros.

You take a freshly cleaved bard, who goes to the AH and buys all their songs, you think they just automatically know "yup, if Ido my rotation its ctrl1->ctrl2, then run 15 feet to the mages and position and alt1->alt2" or whatever? That shit takes practice to be able to eyeball your song distance.

No way will a freshly cleaved bard have any fucking clue how any of that works.

I don't care if you cleave to 99, but if you do, go learn how to play your job before you join my runs and ungimp your skills. I got my smn cleaved up to 99 and I would never dream of trying to bring it to ANY end game run for someone else. I have no issue admitting my smn has gimp skills and I have little practice on it since I cleaved it. I openly admit it.

I got my monk/dnc/thf/brd all grinded up the old way, and I am fully aware of the fact I play those jobs WAY better than my summoner, because I have all the little muscle memories from hours spent killing colibri.

Its like shooting hoops. Sure, you can pick a ball up and get it in the hoop first try, no prob. But it takes thousands of shots to get that natural, lightning fast ability to just do it without thinking about it. Same goes for those thousands of colibri. It hones your ability to do shit like naturally keep your JA buffs up because you just feel when they're gonna be up on recast soon. Keeping shadows up takes practice, stun rotations take practice, it all takes practice. Killing thousands of colibri give you the practice so when you go into end game with new shit to learn, you already know all the basic shit of your job like the back of your hand so you don't even need to think about how to rotate songs and boost->ws and Sata and stun rotate and keep shadows up, by now that shit is second nature.

So instead now you can focus on all the new stuff, and learn it quick. Savy?

The game isn't that hard as long as you have a basic understanding of how a class works. Like seriously this game is not hard. It's all gear building.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2TbbvXK5QS8

full explanation on how jobs work in this video

[Tarage]

Does someone have a ban credit they can use on urat? Please. Shut the fuck up.

[Kyreth]

abyssea was fun and different and I enjoyed it. I don't know how you could really hate it other than the fact that leveling was really fast. It was definitely a lot more fun than doing gay ass sea or camping hnms.

The pops and such? Fun. The crushing wave of dumb it produced with 99s? Not so much. There is no replacement for the experiences we had pre-Abyssea for the people who came afterwards, and the "endgame" is much less forgiving than Valkrum Dunes. Having to learn everything about a job at once isn't as effective as gradually building up to it, but when you have a game where you can fall asleep 30th and wake up 99th with a full range of abilities and spells and shit to catch up on, gaps are going to form. Rhapsodies isn't going to be a repeat in that regard, and I do see it as having more of the good parts of the expansion vs. the grind-and-learn being obliterated completely part.