Dev Tracker: Discussion

[steellord]

Something that video didn't talk about, which would've probably fit into the Subscription Fatigue section, was the pressure of getting the most out of your sub fee. While I've brought this up before in past MMO debates, the typical reply was something akin to like, "$15 is nothing to me!" or "It just means I eat a bagged lunch for a week!" This gets further exacerbated with things like dailies/weeklies/lockouts telling you how much can and can not do.

Otherwise, I don't think it really mechanically touches on why MMOs may be suffering. Yes, you have some nimrods who unabashedly believe P2P is the superior model, feeling it guarantees a higher quality product, but that's not really true. The opposite end of that is they also equate F2P with P2W. It happens occasionally, yes, but not like it used to. One of the bigger factors of singular MMO populations sink is the number of games out there now relative to a decade ago. F2P, P2P, good, bad, PvP-focused, PvE, or whatever... people can't really clone themselves to play multiple time consuming games. Of course, you can bet if they don't have to play sub fees, they're more inclined to try.

Any further would involve getting into the nitty gritty of forced grouping, the effects of RMT, chosen combat systems/mechanics, role-playing over playing a role, and then some.

the genre has been mostly stale. Even if i felt i consumed all a game has to offer, well, until the next major update, i'm not going to hop to yet another WoW clone or grind fest. There's just not enough innovation. This doesn't account for why *some* games don't thrive, why the market has shrunk overall.

Compared to 2004, a long shitty economy that leaves people with less free time and as you say, more need to put that time to good use. MMOs ain't it.

Today's young gamers who are the age we were when starting XI see no point to MMOs either. Even console games have heavily online components, usually as free additions. In fact, "MMOs" themselves i now just call online games as everything is done with 3-5 people max. It's kind of like when i play online euchre or socom...the multi player is not only diminished but far from unique any more.

It's also a lot easier than 2004 to drag actual friends into any number of online game/interactions and just forego the team up with random assholes in a specific sub-based game. You have to really enjoy that game to bother, with all its constraints and time sinks, and odds are your friends will not

[Sechs]

why the market has shrunk overall.

The market has shrunk? But has it really?
On which number are you basing this sentence of yours?
and has shrunked compared to what? 2010? 2005? 2002?

I'm not sure at all it has shrunk. Comparing today's situation to, say, 2006, there's an incredibly higher number of titles, many of which are high quality and many of which are F2P.
There's sub-genres for all. The majority are just clones of the "MMO-model" created by WoW with some variations, but then again there are also very different titles out there.
"unsuccessful"? Maybe they are, if you judge your success measurement* on the highest peak of numbers they can reach, but then again they have their small but stable niche of players that ensures the game's survivability.


*
This is an interesting aspect. A lot of us defined unsuccessful a title like TERA, myself included, and I found out that in 2014 it's been, economically talking (so for the devs) one of the most successful titles on the market.
I was like.. wow, srsly? TERA?

[Kanriel]

Something that video didn't talk about, which would've probably fit into the Subscription Fatigue section, was the pressure of getting the most out of your sub fee. While I've brought this up before in past MMO debates, the typical reply was something akin to like, "$15 is nothing to me!" or "It just means I eat a bagged lunch for a week!" This gets further exacerbated with things like dailies/weeklies/lockouts telling you how much can and can not do.

Otherwise, I don't think it really mechanically touches on why MMOs may be suffering. Yes, you have some nimrods who unabashedly believe P2P is the superior model, feeling it guarantees a higher quality product, but that's not really true. The opposite end of that is they also equate F2P with P2W. It happens occasionally, yes, but not like it used to. One of the bigger factors of singular MMO populations sink is the number of games out there now relative to a decade ago. F2P, P2P, good, bad, PvP-focused, PvE, or whatever... people can't really clone themselves to play multiple time consuming games. Of course, you can bet if they don't have to play sub fees, they're more inclined to try.

Any further would involve getting into the nitty gritty of forced grouping, the effects of RMT, chosen combat systems/mechanics, role-playing over playing a role, and then some.

Could you recommend me a good F2P MMO that isn't P2W?

[arus2001]

Without knowing what someone considers a good MMO, I can only really reference what I know of cash shops from the various games I have played.

It's been a while since I've really kept tabs on it, but Rift's initial F2P conversion was relatively fair. They don't make you buy expansions or other new content when it comes out, but do offer packages with things like uniquely skinned mounts or maybe something to bump a new character to level 60. What functional gear they do have for sale is usually a tier or two behind the current raid best, but I'd also personally call it all too expensive even then. Like, a few hundred bucks worth just to be gimp. If you're willing to play the economy, you also don't have to pay a cent to get things like sub features or various credit items through their Rex system, which basically lets you use in-game cash to buy credits from other players.

Now, I have some gripes about Rift mechanically. One being its aged engine can be pretty shaky in terms of lag of the graphical or ability use variety. The possible flexibility of their soul system is also humstrung by the cookie cutter nature of builds eventually found and the ebb and flow of balance patching. If you're not someone who likes to raid or can't do so regularly, your progression will stall out pretty quickly. They're a bit heavy on the dailies/weeklies and what currency there is to grind usually isn't done so in the fun because the grind is drawn out too long. Lore is also pretty ham-fisted if you're someone who actually cares about such things. They've further been so pussywhipped by RMT or the fear thereof that crafting may as well not exist since questing covers basic gear needs while leveling and the raiders get butthurt if someone can actually buy something decent from the AH.

Overall, I'd say genre stagnation plagues this game like it does others. I'm of the mind that the actual future of MMOs lies in user generated content, as it's quite obvious through all the tricks they use to string things along that no team can really keep up with the rate players consume. On the other hand, if you tap into the "free labor" of your players creating dungeons, puzzles, and stories, well, the possibilities are nigh infinite. Yes, some degree of quality is required and content building needs an easy-to-use engine so someone doesn't have to master some (obscure) coding language, but I'd say we're on the cusp of that. The only other real sweeping change I can think of is how we actually interact with our games, but I'm skeptical VRMMOs are something that'll happen in our lifetimes.

[Draylo]

I don't get how people say MMOs are stagnant or not "innovative" yet we get clone #1119238498134 FPS game and people flock to that likes flies to shit. Destiny, CoD #15, ,Halo # 15, sports game #1341234134234234 all the same thing yet people buy those left and right.

[Gokulo]

I don't get how people say MMOs are stagnant or not "innovative" yet we get clone #1119238498134 FPS game and people flock to that likes flies to shit. Destiny, CoD #15, ,Halo # 15, sports game #1341234134234234 all the same thing yet people buy those left and right.

First of all, I'd say this makes no sense, pretty sure you're trying to put two different things together, but that's not how it works. But even then, in case of MMOs there's a difference in scale, expectation of time you will put in and the fact that you usually pay a subscription, that's why people, who still remember the "golden days" of MMOs are having problems accepting that it's not as fun as it was in the past.

[Draylo]

How doesn't it make sense? People are saying the game itself is not innovative enough for people to enjoy it (based on this thread they are saying its the same copy paste formula of quests etc.) Then they turn around and play another game (doesn't matter price tag) that hasn't been innovative since it first came out. I don't see how a subscription or expectation of time can cause a game to be not fun. You might not be able to get as much enjoyment out of it all at once but that doesn't mean it isn't a fun game.

[steellord]

The market has shrunk? But has it really?
On which number are you basing this sentence of yours?
and has shrunked compared to what? 2010? 2005? 2002?

I'm not sure at all it has shrunk. Comparing today's situation to, say, 2006, there's an incredibly higher number of titles, many of which are high quality and many of which are F2P.
There's sub-genres for all. The majority are just clones of the "MMO-model" created by WoW with some variations, but then again there are also very different titles out there.
"unsuccessful"? Maybe they are, if you judge your success measurement* on the highest peak of numbers they can reach, but then again they have their small but stable niche of players that ensures the game's survivability.


*
This is an interesting aspect. A lot of us defined unsuccessful a title like TERA, myself included, and I found out that in 2014 it's been, economically talking (so for the devs) one of the most successful titles on the market.
I was like.. wow, srsly? TERA?

Actually that's a good example cause TERA was one of those i really looked forward to at launch, and it just didn't sustain any momentum. I just forgot about it. The genre was already becoming stale to the point few were willing to pay a sub

Are you really contesting the market hasn't shrunk and failed to innovate, when WoW is *still* the largest MMO and is itself hemorrhaging subs? Guild wars 2 is the only one i can call largely original, and it certainly couldn't survive if not F2P.

The problem with measuring success there is obviously someone can plop down $10 on TERA or GW or whatever and play all of a week, and the company will gloat "See we have 1.2 million registered users!" But that's not my definition of a healthy genre, even if they do eek out a profit. Believe me, if they could charge subs and call it a day they would

But here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...-playing_games

Now how many of these even have subs, active updates, and are truly "massively multiplayer" Sure seems like not much growth since WoW, especially relative to the video game market generally. You'd think with all the WoW ripoffs, at least newer graphics 10 years later if nothing else could steal some of those subs, but no. It doesn't help either that, due to stagnation and a multitude of other gaming options, today's 15-20 year olds never got into the genre in the first place

From another article, WoW is at 5 million subs, FF14 at 800k-1.2 mil, Eve Online at 500k subs. Adding these up and estimating the other less popular games, there are less total MMO subs than any time since at least 2006

The only promising sign for the market is 14's resurgence and i'm sure many of those subs are former 11 players

[arus2001]

I don't think it'd be hard to argue that some pick-up-and-play FPS online Deathmatch is less demanding of time and effort to set up than, say, setting up a Skirmish run here in XI. The "waiting to play" aspect of MMOs is still too real.

And my personal metric of whether or not a game is successful is if it can still be played. I (and others) might not like what's there, but if they're still turning a profit, mission accomplished. Partly why I give games like Wildstar shit, though, is all the the promise of it being the next big thing, the WoW-killer, or other nostalgia hype that just. won't. work. anymore.

[Gokulo]

How doesn't it make sense? People are saying the game itself is not innovative enough for people to enjoy it (based on this thread they are saying its the same copy paste formula of quests etc.) Then they turn around and play another game (doesn't matter price tag) that hasn't been innovative since it first came out.

Because who are those people? You're speaking as if it was some general trend in the industry, which I don't see. Yeah, masses are playing Destiny, CoD, Halos or w/e and masses are also playing WoW or XIV or w/e. In both cases you will have people that are dissatisfied with the games too but suggesting that there are some correlations feels like forcing two separate things together to create an argument.

[steellord]

How doesn't it make sense? People are saying the game itself is not innovative enough for people to enjoy it (based on this thread they are saying its the same copy paste formula of quests etc.) Then they turn around and play another game (doesn't matter price tag) that hasn't been innovative since it first came out. I don't see how a subscription or expectation of time can cause a game to be not fun. You might not be able to get as much enjoyment out of it all at once but that doesn't mean it isn't a fun game.

You don't seem to understand how trends and other choices impacts this. I'm not even arguing quality, just why the market has shrunk. MMOs compete with the *time* of the customer's online interaction with even totally unrelated things like social media. If the MMOs don't innovate, people will spend that time on other things and never look back, or never get introduced to MMOs in the first place.

Then in addition they compete directly with the consumer's gaming time, which includes consoles, apps, offline RPGs that let them avoid confrontational douchebags (i'm enjoying "witcher" currently), even just sitting on one's ass watching "let's play" vids. All of that has grown exponentially since 2005

[Not Kuno]

I don't think it'd be hard to argue that some pick-up-and-play FPS online Deathmatch is less demanding of time and effort to set up than, say, setting up a Skirmish run here in XI.

As someone who rejoined late and needs lots of Skirmish stuff, I can say with certainly no one wants to do Skirmish. Anyone competent already got what they wanted from it, and anyone interested in money from it already does it with friends.

[Sechs]

Are you really contesting the market hasn't shrunk and failed to innovate, when WoW is *still* the largest MMO and is itself hemorrhaging subs?

No if anything I'm contesting we're not correctly attuned with the use of words here.
If you say "market has shrunk" I intend something else. Like if in 2008 the market overall has 15 millions MMO players and in 2012 the market has overall 12 millions MMO players, then I can agree the market has "shrunk", i.e. it became smaller.
But then you're talking about "failing to innovate", with which I kinda agree don't get me wrong, but it's a different thing from "shrinking market". I'd say if anything the correct word here would be "stagnation"? In other terms you're making it a "quality" issue, I was making just a "numerical" issue.
In my original post I was asking: "has the market really shrunk?"
I wasn't implying I had an answer of course, I was just wondering if the market really became smaller today compared to, say, 5 years ago, or if instead it got bigger IN SPITE of the other issues (stagnation, more MMOs on the market, etc)
My impression, which may be wrong, is that the overall numbers are not smaller, if anything they're higher, but they're just spread among more titles.

If someone can provide solid data I'll be glad to believe it anyway, it's not that "impossible" to believe for things to be the other way around from what I said in the end. (the data you provided is not that solid, but it's a start I guess, better than nothing!)

[PSOfanatic]

I think the reason why the FPS market is doing better than the MMO market (Is it really though? I wonder what a $ breakdown would look like between the two), is because FPS games require WAY less amount of time to jump into. You can hop online, play 2 matches and log off. Also, once that game has lived its course (Which is generally short, right? Considering a new FPS game comes out so often), people can easily migrate to the new "CoD" or w/e it may be.

MMOs on the otherhand are a bit tricky. FFXI is the only MMO I'll ever play. I can't simply toss away my 99999999 hours of gameplay on this game and jump to an entirely new game and start ALL the way over...Heck no. Some people may do that but I think a majority of people like to stick to just one. Then again...not everyone has my same outlook. I've had plenty of friends who quit XI as soon as XIV came out.

FFXI still really does need to go F2P though! Especially if they are going to stop updating the game. (or at least a price cut in sub fee to maintain servers...like $10/month unlimited mules or something)

[Ligray]

Half exp/cp campaign will continue...

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...4205/14205.jpg

Get Ready for the Second Act of the Goddess's Gala Battle Campaigns! (10/05/2015)

The following campaigns will be kicking off on Saturday, October 10 at 8:00 a.m. (PDT).

Campaign Period
From Saturday, October 10 at 8:00 a.m. (PDT) to Saturday, October 31 at 7:59 a.m. (PDT)

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey Mysterious Item Campaign
During the campaign period, vanquishing notorious monsters appearing on floors 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 of Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey, as well as those appearing on other floors, will drop new mysterious items.

Bonus Bayld Campaign
Lair, colonization, and wildkeeper reives will receive evaluation bonuses throughout the duration, doubling bayld and experience gains.
*The maximum amount of bayld and experience available for a single reive remains unchanged.

Mweya Plasm Campaign
Earn double the usual amount of Mweya Plasm from defeating Delve notorious monsters and clearing the content.

Mog Garden Campaign
- Mog Gardens will undergo the following adjustments.
- Double the normal amount of shining stars will be earned.
- Different flotsam will wash up upon the shores.
- Reared creatures will provide items twice daily.
- Moogles in the Mog Gardens will sell the following items.
   Golden seed pouch / Chestnut tree sap / Monarch beetle saliva /
   Bronze Bed / Mahogany Bed / Noble?s Bed / Goblin Stew 880

Alter Ego Expo
Alter egos will undergo the following adjustments.
- Alter egos' maximum HP and MP will be increased by 50%.
- Alter egos will gain a high resistance to status ailments.

Double Unity Accolade Campaign
Unity accolade gains from completing Records of Eminence objectives and vanquishing monsters will be doubled!

Adoulin Dial Campaign
A brand new dial will added to the Goblin Mystery Box!
The Adoulin dial is usable once per Earth day and provides a variety of rewards specific to Seekers of Adoulin content, such as Skirmish stones and airlixirs from Delve.

Further, the chance of receiving equipment from the SP dial will be increased.

* The Adoulin dial is completely free to use.
* At least forty-five days must have passed since character creation to be eligible to use the Goblin Mystery Box.

Vagary Campaign
During this campaign, defeated monsters are more likely to drop the Etched Memory and Codex of Etchings items. Additionally, exchanging the following key items at the Odyssean Passage in Leafallia (H-8) will yield an additional reward.

Fabricated Ward of Biting Winds / Fabricated Ward of Miasma / Fabricated Ward of Impurity /
Fabricated Ward of Ashen Wings / Fabricated Ward of the False King

[Rehn]

Never been more sad reading one of those campaign notes. I'm assuming JP side doesn't list double exp/cp either?

[Sechs]

It makes sense they're making a break on the double CP in October, so that people will focus on stuff other than CPing.
November will unlock new JP cap (20 instead of the current 15) and new final gift (2100 JP) and I'm sure the November campaign will have double CP as well.

Not saying I'm happy, just saying I was expecting it.

[dasva]

As someone who rejoined late and needs lots of Skirmish stuff, I can say with certainly no one wants to do Skirmish. Anyone competent already got what they wanted from it, and anyone interested in money from it already does it with friends.

Can always use more dusk stones... fuck the droprates one those

[NynJa]

Half exp/cp campaign will continue...

You dont even get a gif, you get the actual youtube clip

[Bukadan]

LOLOL the fact that the youtube video includes the word "rehab" is excellent when youve seen the other recent youtube video posted to this thread.