Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Byrthnoth]

They seem to be very purposefully maintaining the difficulty level.

There are effectively 43-45 unmodified JPs between Capacity Point bonus Gifts (not counting Gift bonuses) from 200 to 1200 JPs. Capping JPs before they increased the cap to 15 took 550 JPs, which is effectively 350 JPs considering the gift bonus progression. Capping from 10 to 15 takes another 220 unmodified JPs.

Spoiler: show

No Bonus (HARD MODE):


100% Bonus (cape, some missions, Reives, etc.):

So I don't really have a problem with their JP system. It's all a hell of a lot easier than back in the days when a 50% bonus from a cape and 3k CP once in a while from a ring were the best we got. I mean, I never ever in a million years would have attempted to solo cap all my jobs back then. Now I've capped Dancer sitting there killing monsters in Ru'Aun, I'm over 1000 JPs spent on BLM, and I'm nearing 600 on most of my other jobs.



As far as the cap raise, people have reported 100 JPs/hr in Capacity Point parties on Apex mobs. So you're looking at a 5 hour JP party. That seems reasonable to me. On the contrary, in fact, bots are likely pulling like 30 JPs/hr and would have to be left on for ages in order to hit the cap.

[The Assman]

I suppose also if you have no extra Trizeks in your inbox/outbox, have a 3/3 Escha ring and 7/7 capacity ring, and are camping somewhere out of the way like Ra'Kaznar, it gives more reason to stay for several hours in a row rather than go back every so often.

[NynJa]

As far as the cap raise, people have reported 100 JPs/hr in Capacity Point parties on Apex mobs. So you're looking at a 5 hour JP party. That seems reasonable to me. On the contrary, in fact, bots are likely pulling like 30 JPs/hr and would have to be left on for ages in order to hit the cap.

Real_nigga doesnt care about how much JP/hr he gets while botting because while youre grinding away on xp mobs hes playing with his bitches tits in the club.


Tried finding the actual forum quote, but tapatalk...

[Rehn]

What are some CP values for apex mobs? I've actually never tried them before since all the shouts ever ask for are BLM GEO SCH and such.

[dasva]

Exactely, and this is the opposite of what happens normally in MMOs.
You level fast at start, the more you go up, the more XP is required to reach the next level.
I.e. it becomes "slower" to level up.

With Job Points is the other way around. You're particularly slow at first, but over time (thanks to gifts mainly, and other boons) you become faster, to the point that the last job points are much faster than the first ones.

I think you are getting to hung up on a level vs a jp and forgetting that they mean different things at different points. A level will always gain you so much stats and such. While jps what took you 1 at first might take you 20 at the end of a category (and some gifts are even farther apart) so while yes you are gaining jps faster they start counting as smaller and smaller partial "levels"

[dasva]

What are some CP values for apex mobs? I've actually never tried them before since all the shouts ever ask for are BLM GEO SCH and such.

From what I've seen/heard depends a lot... like right now little to no bonuses I think I've heard as low as 6-8k on some... but during campaigns lots of jp gifts and ring heard of 60ks? And then the super ones in inner can give a good 35k right now no ring or campaign

[Draylo]

Do people really still bot it? As far as I know they are still banning heavy on that unless they stopped lol.

[Sechs]

I think you are getting to hung up on a level vs a jp and forgetting that they mean different things at different points. A level will always gain you so much stats and such. While jps what took you 1 at first might take you 20 at the end of a category (and some gifts are even farther apart) so while yes you are gaining jps faster they start counting as smaller and smaller partial "levels"

I see what you mean, but I was looking at things from a different perspective.
1) The JP cost per upgrade increase as you delve further into a category (which leads me to think they initially thought the JP system as a "regular" system like in all other RPG. I.e. fast at start, slows down as you proceed)
2) I didn't math it out, but it seems to me that the speed increase in the JP/hr rate, is bigger than the JP/upgrade increase. I have overall ~5000 JPs across all my jobs, with 2 of them being capped at 1200, and it took me less time to cap those jobs (despite them requiring many more job points) than getting other jobs to their first upgrades. Up to 500 JPs you get roughly a 100% CP increase. Past 500 you get an additional like 170%, plus the 100% from before.

The final result is the same, and that is "we get JPs faster/more comfortably than when the system was released", and we're all happy with this. Or at least I am.
My point is: couldn't they simply raise the JP/kill ratio, instead of binding it behind an increasing system that you unlock progressively and that produces the result that past a certain point you actually get JPs faster than you did before?
Comparing to XPs and Level, it's like if levelling 40>75 was faster than levelling 1>40.
Which isn't necessarily wrong but it sure feels "strange" compared to what most RPG players are used to?

Once again: same result in the end, nothing to complain, but why go this strange route instead of just bumping up the base ratio? (it's what they did for XP for instance, and what most other MMOs did too)

[Sechs]

Do people really still bot it? As far as I know they are still banning heavy on that unless they stopped lol.

I've seen some people botting/JA0ing/fleeing/GMflagging on Asura. Not many tbf, but I seen them.
Wonder how it is they don't get banned...
Haven't seen many people still botting XP/JP/Reives though.

Most people who care seem to solo/lowman or join/setup parties.
The rest of the people probably don't even care about JPs.
Despite JPs being nowadays quite vital for endgame players, I still get a feeling that the majority of people still playing FFXI just don't give a fuck about them, or not that much.
Maybe I'm wrong though. Anybody else got the same impression?

[Fwahm]

It doesn't matter if you get JPs faster than you do early on, because the actual upgrades go up in cost much faster than your JP gain rate does.

Let's say that you have all of the missions done and a 30% mantle, but no reives, moghancement, or cheers. At 1200 JP, you gain ~2.3x as many CP per kill as at 0 JP, but it takes 16 times as much JP to get a single upgrade (after they raise cap next update). If you have more non-gift CP bonuses, then the gap is even smaller; for someone with every reive, mission, 9% in cheer, moghancement, and a 50% cape, then 1200 JP only gets you ~1.9x as much CP as 0 JP.

[dasva]

I see what you mean, but I was looking at things from a different perspective.
1) The JP cost per upgrade increase as you delve further into a category (which leads me to think they initially thought the JP system as a "regular" system like in all other RPG. I.e. fast at start, slows down as you proceed)
2) I didn't math it out, but it seems to me that the speed increase in the JP/hr rate, is bigger than the JP/upgrade increase. I have overall ~5000 JPs across all my jobs, with 2 of them being capped at 1200, and it took me less time to cap those jobs (despite them requiring many more job points) than getting other jobs to their first upgrades. Up to 500 JPs you get roughly a 100% CP increase. Past 500 you get an additional like 170%, plus the 100% from before.

The final result is the same, and that is "we get JPs faster/more comfortably than when the system was released", and we're all happy with this. Or at least I am.
My point is: couldn't they simply raise the JP/kill ratio, instead of binding it behind an increasing system that you unlock progressively and that produces the result that past a certain point you actually get JPs faster than you did before?
Comparing to XPs and Level, it's like if levelling 40>75 was faster than levelling 1>40.
Which isn't necessarily wrong but it sure feels "strange" compared to what most RPG players are used to?

Once again: same result in the end, nothing to complain, but why go this strange route instead of just bumping up the base ratio? (it's what they did for XP for instance, and what most other MMOs did too)

1) Actually this point is what I was pointing out that the increases in cost are equivalent to the increase in tnl. Should be noted that even "normal" xp systems generally do something similar. tnls go way up but generally xp/kill does as well. Not enough to completely counter especially since xp fights tend to get longer and harder but still some countering. I'd guess largely to make lvling off the same low lvl stuff unfeasible without making lvling off high lvl stuff too ridiculous similar to how ffxi scales xp/kill based on lvl difference

2) It might overall be (kind hard to completely compare since you can switch categories and such). Also got to factor in different methods of obtainment and better methods/items now. But let's do a little math... base amount right now can be 50% cape, 10% bounty, I believe 54% for reives, then I think another 80% from missions for a total of +194%.. picking a random job adding up the gifts it comes out to +285% from gifts by 1200. So cp gain rate roughly doubles from 0 to 1200. I'd say double cp gain rate doesn't really compare 16X increase in cost. At least comparing 0 to 1200. Somewhere in the middle it might be closer. Now if we were comparing full everything 1200 jp cp gain rate right now compared to what we had when it came out it's almost 6 times as much... and that doesn't even account for the differences in mobs

As far why they did it... probably because it's the point system they are using like merits. It's a bait and switch... they put big numbers up to make it feel big amount plus disincentivize maxing categories first but give the increase to make you think it wont really take that long. It's not too dissimilar to just raising how much you can potentially gain but doesn't require new harder mobs like what you'd used to do for leveling. And just flat increase for everyone kind of runs counter to the whole idea you can gain faster as you lvl to make it feel like it isn't dragging on that is in most well really any lvling type game

Edit: Doh looks like Fwahm beat me while I was taking too long lol

[Byrthnoth]

It costs more, and the respective benefit is smaller. I have no issue with this, and think it's good game design. By setting up the gradations this way, you ensure that people with low playtime are not super different from people with high playtime.

The issue with this particular implementation, which I posted back on the official forum before they banned me, is Gifts. Having a 550, 1200, or soon 2100 JP Gift be essential to a job's function is very much contrary to this idea and creates a "noobs go home" environment. Still, if you look at JP progression from a Gift standpoint you'll see that our rate of earning Gifts is approximately the same going from 550 to 1200 as it was from 200 to 550. So they have essentially made the effort per gift pretty constant, even though the effort per job point category upgrade is increasing.

[Seha]

As far as we know about this update, is it predicted it will break something on windower? Since I'm not subbed atm I'd rather wait a few days more if stuff will fall apart.

[Byrthnoth]

I don't know what will break, but I bet something will break. The upside is that this will be the last real update, so if we fix something after this update it might never break again.

[DirtyWattz]

IIRC they fixed Windower fairly quickly last patch. This update has already been confirmed to arrive on the 11th and hopefully there's slightly more motivation to push it out ASAP since it's the "end of the game". The reason for the delay on one of the last patches was because Arcon wasn't informed that a patch even hit.

[Draylo]

Well dressup has yet to be fixed from what I understand, not sure what the status is on that.

[Kyreth]

I wouldn't be surprised if we see high-level content that has you spend Job Points to do at the end, the way we have ones that cost merits now. It'd give you more reasons to grind even with capped gifts.

[Fwahm]

What's the reason for the admitted speculation on the BG Wiki front page?

[Byrthnoth]

Funkworkz is hopeful?!

[arus2001]

The rest of the people probably don't even care about JPs.

I wouldn't say that they wouldn't care, but if we were to revisit my earlier posts related to the subject, it's easy to feel either overwhelmed or like you're grossly underperforming. If you're like me and all your old friends have pretty much quit or moved on, this is just another brick in the progression wall. And since I rarely played in what would be called NA primetime, it's just a bigger whammy to the shout scene.

Like, I recognize not all JPs are awesome, but those that are are definitely worth chasing. Anyone still even bothering to follow the game at this point should also likely have some proclivity toward optimization since other MMOs aren't nearly as convoluted with equipment or even variable character stats.