Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Byrthnoth]

Every random augment system SE created was pretty much shit until Skirmish. I do wish they had gone more towards Skirmish when making the Reisenjima augment system, but the Reisenjima system really isn't that bad.

[Sechs]

At first glance the Reisen isn't THAT different from the Skirmish v1 system.
Yet it feels so much better and less frustrating than that.
The things that make an important and apreciated difference imho are:

1) There is a single quality of stones. This makes so they're cheap and that there are plenty on the market. (might not make a difference for incredibly rich people but it does for everybody else)
2) They balanced the system so that it's much more frequent to get decent numbers (this is a likely consequence of point 1 as well)
3) Stones get traded, even in multiple amounts/types, to the NPC, and get used directly from there
4) Can choose the type of augment (for the majority of pieces) and three types of stones to give priority to slightly different things, giving overall a small degree of control to the player

[dasva]

I hear the single quality of stones argument a lot... but really it's not much different than if you could only use NQs in skirmish augments. Personally I'd like to be able to have the option to limit the range to at least decent levels with HQs or if I want to play the you might get +1 att game use nqs

[Isiolia]

I hear the single quality of stones argument a lot... but really it's not much different than if you could only use NQs in skirmish augments. Personally I'd like to be able to have the option to limit the range to at least decent levels with HQs or if I want to play the you might get +1 att game use nqs

With regard to Skirmish v1 though, aren't the caps lower with NQ stones?

I think the biggest aspect is that Reisenjima stones are so easy to come by. Having a single tier of stone is part of that, and I wouldn't want it to change. Instead, perhaps they could offer an HQ roll that consumes three stones at a time or something, maybe in addition to some other fee (additional stored item, gil, etc).

[Sechs]

I hear the single quality of stones argument a lot... but really it's not much different than if you could only use NQs in skirmish augments.

Uhm... maybe it's just bias, but talking at least out of my personal experience and that of the people I've had the chance to talk to about this topic, I've personally noticed a better average rate of at least decent augments.
On Skirmish V1 aug, using NQ stones, it was REALLY rare. Did it happen to me? Yes, once or twice, out of god knows how many thousands of stones.
Here I'm getting at least decent augments quite often.

I guess the fact that the maximum range is bigger also does play a role of course, but I think they just made the odds better than what they were on the original Skirmish Aug system.
I'd dare to say they're even better than that of Skirmish v2 augments honestly, but honestly not that far away probably (yes, I think even Skirmish V2 augs were on average slightly better than they were for V1 ones)

[dasva]

Well I guess when talking about skirmish 1 a better comparison I guess is +1 stones as far as rates and ranges go. I still wouldn't mind the option of going +2

[Draylo]

I don't mind the current system of augments that much. You need multiple pieces for different augments but that's how this game is I guess. I really disliked the ANNM augments and the fey ones were annoying even though it was fun doing.

[Byrthnoth]

If Pellucid re-rolled the Atk/Acc slots, Fern re-rolled the trait slot, and Taupe re-rolled the base stat slot, it'd be a hell of a lot easier to make good gear and I'd feel more like I was building towards some ideal goal. As it is, I have good pieces and know that it's pretty unlikely I'll be able to improve them in any reasonable amount of time, so I sell the stones rather than wasting them. Made about 50mil over the last 3 weeks dumping my stone stockpile.

[Fwahm]

I wish they stacked to 99, so that they'd be easier to sell.

[Sechs]

If Pellucid re-rolled the Atk/Acc slots, Fern re-rolled the trait slot, and Taupe re-rolled the base stat slot, it'd be a hell of a lot easier to make good gear and I'd feel more like I was building towards some ideal goal. As it is, I have good pieces and know that it's pretty unlikely I'll be able to improve them in any reasonable amount of time, so I sell the stones rather than wasting them. Made about 50mil over the last 3 weeks dumping my stone stockpile.

If that were possible, 99% of NQ abjurations and likely part of the HQ ones too, would become utterly useless.
The current random situation makes it so rare to get perf augs, that in the long run Abj pieces, at least some of them, mantain some interest.
I think they did what they did with this in mind, thinking about the health of those items and the content tied to obtain them.


@Fwahm
Seconded

[Mojo]

The end result is a system where randoms usually end up with better than hq cursed gear and those who use 1000s of stones don't. It's not balanced it's just shitty tbh.

[Sechs]

The end result is a system where randoms usually end up with better than hq cursed gear and those who use 1000s of stones don't. It's not balanced it's just shitty tbh.

You're hyperbolizing the current situation. Butthurt pretty much?
But it's true Reisen gear was made too strong to begin with, I agree with that. The subsequent patch to Abj gear helped things but wasn't enough.

Still my point is that if things were like Byrth was suggestiong, it would've been even worse.
As it stands now Reisen gear rewards luck rather than effort/tries, but at the same time you won't find that many "lucky" players around. The odds of getting perf gear are still incredibly low.

[Mojo]

It's not a hyperbole by any means. Do the math on what is known already about the augment distributions. Better than HQ abjuration gear varies on piece to piece, but the odds are usually low enough for the RNG to be somewhat antagonizing and in some cases favor getting the hq cursed gear instead. Claiming that the system was planned with some kind of balance comes off as apologist and simply wrong given that they ended up having to buff the abjuration gear due to massive amounts of complaining. In regards to being butthurt, I have set aside maybe 30 minutes (if any) to farm stones since Reisenjima was released and have never bought stones. My augments are fairly mediocre.

[NynJa]

You're hyperbolizing the current situation. Butthurt pretty much?
But it's true Reisen gear was made too strong to begin with, I agree with that. The subsequent patch to Abj gear helped things but wasn't enough.

Still my point is that if things were like Byrth was suggestiong, it would've been even worse.
As it stands now Reisen gear rewards luck rather than effort/tries, but at the same time you won't find that many "lucky" players around. The odds of getting perf gear are still incredibly low.

Anything thats "random" is shitty. You can literally toss your entire bank at stones, turn those stones in for augs, and never wind up with a great piece, let alone a perfect piece.

Your previous aug has no bearing on your next aug, like running on a treadmill. Just today I tossed 200 stones into my mules Merlinic Shalwar hoping for INT+5 (or higher), MACC/MAB+25 (or higher) and MBDMG+8% (or higher). As far as the augs go, the INT and macc/mab are rather average, with an above average MBDMG...and I got nothing close. I know 200 stones isnt much (it was like 100 fern, 50/50 taupe/pellucid), but its a pretty decent example of how you can toss stones at it forever and be stuck with "average".

[Draylo]

It's meant to keep the player base busy, as I'm sure we are all aware of. It does suck but in a way it seems kinda necessary. The average player on FFXI has the mentality where they rush to get the best equipment if its in their means to do so. That would lead them to quitting faster, which I've seen happen countless times. It's super easy to even semi-cap out now and I already see it happening more and more. People always say "I'd rather collect 10 million gems of whatever instead of random augments!" but then you see things like people on the OF complaining about how many plutons/etc their welfare afterglows cost. I remember before it came out people were complaining it could potentially have a random augment slot. This DEV team just can't win either way, at least they made these stones cheap and kept the carrot on the stick in a way that can be bypassed (HQ ABJ gear.)

[NynJa]

People always say "I'd rather collect 10 million gems of whatever instead of random augments!" but then you see things like people on the OF complaining about how many plutons/etc their welfare afterglows cost.

These are people who whine about ANYTHING...

[Sechs]

Anything thats "random" is shitty.

Hey, you're preaching to the converted.
I'm one of the people around who hate random stuff (in general,not just augments) the most.
I'm just saying Reisen isn't the worst we've seen over the years. I think it's a good compromise, perhaps too good despite the randomness, you could say.
My point was exclusively that Abj gear (HQ and especially NQ) are already struggling to keep a sort of relevance, if things were less random the situation would've been even worse for them, and I think it's important for that gear (and the content tied behind them) to keep at least a minimum interest for players, it's healthy for the game.

You can literally toss your entire bank at stones, turn those stones in for augs, and never wind up with a great piece, let alone a perfect piece.

Perfect piece, yes.
Great piece? I'd say no. It all winds up on your personal standards and what you define "great" of course so I'd dare to say there's a degree of subjectivity, but it's gonna be very hard to not get at least a decent piece after such a number of stones.
As people has been saying, the randomizer for Reisen gear is still random but way more generous than many others we've seen in the past, say Skirmish 1 as we were saying at the beginning of this conversation.

[Sechs]

It's meant to keep the player base busy, as I'm sure we are all aware of. It does suck but in a way it seems kinda necessary.

^ this.
Game kinda gives you two paths. Wanna test your luck? Maybe you're gonna be lucky and get an awesome piece for cheap.
Don't want to bother? Then get an Abj and for a bit of gil (or a LOT of gil if we're talking HQ lol) you're gonna get a great piece with no luck involved.
It sounds perfect on paper.
In reality Reisen gear and their augments are a bit stronger than they were supposed to be imho. SE tried to put a patch on it by increasing stats of some abj gear, but it wasn't enough.
Still... it could've been worse, is what I'm trying to say.

People always say "I'd rather collect 10 million gems of whatever instead of random augments!" but then you see things like people on the OF complaining about how many plutons/etc their welfare afterglows cost. I remember before it came out people were complaining it could potentially have a random augment slot. This DEV team just can't win either way, at least they made these stones cheap and kept the carrot on the stick in a way that can be bypassed (HQ ABJ gear.)

Yeah ok but now don't exagerate in the opposite direction lol.
Some people complain about anything. (I'm a bit of a complainer myself, you know me).
I understand what you're trying to say and I 100% agree with you, but I'm not sure the example you chose is the best one.
10k mats for RME was quite a dick move. They could and should've set it to somewhere around 5k. AG owners would've been just as butthurt as they are now, but at least everybody else would've felt less frustrated.
Things are gonna get nasty once the campaign is over and the HTBF stop dropping so many mats.

Over 150 mils to upgrade stuff like Ergons in particular was especially unnecessary and stupid. Their goal of offering mid/long term goals for players was absolutely right, but they should've looked for a better compromise than the annoying 10k items move.

[NynJa]

So this current campaign ends in 6 hours, and SE hasnt posted next weeks bonuses yet. That should be the last week of rainbow campaign.

Last week they were posted about 20 hours in advance (based on when I made my post)

[Sechs]

They just posted a few mins ago